Faith

[Troll King]

And there certainly aren't any weak minded Christians who are easily lead away from their faith by atheist peer pressure.

As for "self-assured and sanctimonious" as Lucon put it, I see plenty of that in the critics of religion too. Their shit doesn't smell any different either.

[Infected_]

Cause the church said Faith is teh shit.

Wonderful. B)

-Sam

[DoTheFandango]

Doesn't apply because there are no lost, weak-minded people on these forums.

I don't know what you are talking about, there are loads of Christians on here.

[Troll King]

I haven't seen anything Christians have written about Atheists that would come as close to statements like that. But this wasn't bullying, was it?

[Lucon]

I haven't seen anything Christians have written about Atheists that would come as close to statements like that. But this wasn't bullying, was it?

Yeah yeah yeah, shut up about that. The point is, pretty much every organized religion, including Christianity, can be proven incorrect, and everyone knows it.

[Troll King]

And my point is that still isn't as annoying as some Atheists.

[Lucon]

And my point is that still isn't as annoying as some Atheists.

What isn't as annoying as some atheists?

[Troll King]

That depends. Did you feel "self-assured" as you wrote your last few posts?

[DoTheFandango]

And my point is that still isn't as annoying as some Atheists.

It wasn't a question of Annoyance, it was a question of a fucking joke.

Jesus Christ was not a god, Son of said God, Savior, Messiah, nor anything but a crazy communist with nothing better to do with his time than talk in parables. Shut up you fucking twit!

[Tone]

Both the most extreme scientific naturalist and spiritual person agree that faith isnt a favorable thing and both talk about 'knowing'.

[Liquid Blue]

yeah and isn't one off the commandments about not worshipinf false idols or engraven images

yet i see christians worshiping a cross

lol the irony !!!

Christians don't worship the cross, it's merely a symbol of God, Jesus and their faith in general. How would it be a false idol when it represents god himself? There is no irony there.

anyways for me faith in science is alot different to a faith in religion. Yes there is alot of faith in science in that we trust scientists and their equations. But one of the things about science is that it moves on and changes to fit the latest understanding. It isn't set in stone and doesn't claim to have all the answers but is about working to try and get more answers, if that means one theory supercedes another so be it etc...

You're trying to make faith in religion sound like it's stubborn or refuses to adapt to new discoveries, but you have to realize that is what faith is all about- not changing your opinion just because some people have a new opinion on the subject, or because there are more theories with better proof that God doesn't exist. You simply continue to believe in religion because of how much faith you have in the validity of your God and your beliefs. Even though the bible supposedly has a good amount of information, I have (might be different in your case) never heard anyone say the bible has all the answers, and if that's not what you meant when you were saying your bolded part, then you shouldn't have used that as a comparison for faith in science. Althogh there are even close dates (through signs and what not) of the apocalypse, there is no exact date of it occuring- you just have to have faith in the signs presented to you and the written word of the bible. Even though there is no exact, 100% proof of God existing, you just have to have faith in the written word of the bible, your religious peers/family, and your own connection with God, if you feel you have one.

Faith in a religion is different becuase it doesn't have much logic to believe in a perticular religion. Also often faith is used as a means too answer alot of the questions that arise from believeing in something that is fundamentaly flawed. Also when you got ppl like 1ight trying to bully ppl to believe in what he does

That's the whole point of faith, you don't need alot of logic to believe in God. Just because people use faith as an asnwer to alot of things they don't understand, or alot of things that in your opinion are "fundamentally flawed", doesn't mean faith itself is flawed.

I'll admit, 1ight's first paragraph is something I don't agree with. It's about as narrow-minded as your opinion, and I don't see why either of you have to act like that in the first place. No one said anything about "science saving them", and him tossing around the words "stubborn" and "ignorant" were just as bad as you tossing around the words "false idol" and "logic".

i think that faith can be dangerous. Its the same with those extremist muslims that support the likes of Al Queda becuase off their "Faith" and its not limited to muslims as christians and other religions have done similar things in the past. Religion can be like brian washing and as you can see all this talk of saviour etc... is drummed into some ppl and is a great way to spread their religion around by picking on the nieve and vunrable and telling them they are "saving" them.

Of course anything can be dangerous if you're going to look at the extreme end of things, why even go there like it's something radically new that's never been discussed before. " Faith can be dangerous, just look at the suicide bombers and Al Queda ". There are alot of depressed people with alot of bad lives and far too many of them jump at the chance to be apart of something, jump at the chance to have something to hold onto to forget about their pain , or find reason for their suffering. That wasn't faith that was being dangerous, it was what those believers did to prove how faithful they were, that's what was dangerous. When you're going to go out of your way to hurt someone to prove how faithful you are to a god, that's when you're using faith as an excuse for your actions. Religion itself can't brain-wash anyone at all, it's people specifically that do the brain washing, and chalking that up to religion is simply a scapegoat as well. Religion or not, the human race has it's share of greedy assholes that only think about themselves, and generally mean spirited people that want to do nothing but cause hurt and pain. If they didn't use religion as a means to get what they want, they would use another form of media or popular culture.

The thing i really hate is when faith is used as a way to subdue doubt and curiosity.

What I'm starting to hate is when faith is described or alluded to be synonymous with ignorance and a sheep-like mentality. That or when people just like to whitewash the entire majority for the actions of a few.

If its just a symbol then why do you hold it up to ward of vampires huh?

and put it on top of churches (guess vampires can fly)

Some people believe the cross has the ability to ward off evil spirits, which can be demons, vampires, whatever else could pop up in your imagination. You took a horror movie icon (vampires) and tried to debunk, discredit a religion (christianity) by making fun of them for believing that one of their holy symbols (the cross) wards off said (generally-believed) false, ficticious horror movie icon.

"lawl why is the jewish star used to keep bigfoot away huh? "

Why point out the vampire thing if you weren't going out of your way to ridicule some of the "wacky" beliefs that christians hold to their hearts ? Instead of using things like vampires to try and prove your points, why don't you use google? Oh wait, you did that below-

Also are you sure its not in the bible? I thought a Jehova's witness told me it was.ehm i googled it and found this-

Originally Posted by Bible Rev 14:1
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Wow, that's a good job! Oh wait, I googled that and got this-

John Wesley once said, "Give me a hundred men who love nothing but God and hate nothing but sin, and I will shake the whole world for Christ." I think Wesley probably underestimated, because in the 14th chapter of the book of Revelation, to which we come this morning, we read that Jesus chose not just 12, not even 100, but 144,000 men, and with that number he would to shake the world in the closing days of this age. In Chapter 7 we saw these 144,000 were chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe. In Chapter 14 they reappear, and we will see their ministry described:

http://www.raystedman.org/revelation/4206.html

Further, the group of 144,000 is the same as that of chapter 7 where they are to be sealed and kept safe through the Tribulation, protected from death to go into the millennial reign of Messiah without going into heaven. This is the implication of chapter 7. Thus, this is prophetic of Christ’s reign in Zion, earthly Jerusalem following the Tribulation. Note in this regard that the word “stood” is in the perfect tense which emphasizes completed action with abiding results.

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1767

But that would mean..?

Originally Posted by Disliked
And pressure, we don't worship the cross, it's just a symbol. And to comment on to something of yours in a previous post. It's Jehova's Witnesses that believe in the 144,000 thing, it's not in the Bible. The 144,000 were selected years ago and it's believed that when they all die, it's the apocalypse

Disliked has said before that he had not read Relevations yet, so it's understandable that he didn't think they were in the bible. But look, by using google it seems that I have found sites and quotes that lean towards his view on the situation, that the 144,000 were a sign of the apocalypse, and not the only ones allowed to go into heaven! Imagine that, google is a wonderful tool.

seriously though, i'm not trying to be even handed and reasonable in religion threads becuase i allready have my views and i'm never going to agree with ppl like 1ight. The reason i post is to try and bring in a little balance by representing a non religious stand point, though i admit i do it half assed and probably do more damage than good but its only TW fourms and i don't take it too serious. occasionly i can be serious and like in my Japanese whaling thread i towed the line and was responcible in what i said. Other threads specialy religion ones i don't be so much

You're not bringing balance to anything if you are going to be stubborn and refuse to change your mind, no matter what they will say. You won't add anything to the discussion, you'll jut end up harping on the religious people that post in the topic ( well look what already happened! ) and not contribute anything positive at all. If you're not going to be " responcible " in religion threads and you know this ahead of time, save all of our times and just avoid replying to them. Would you appreciate someone going out of their way to argue with you for no other reason than just to argue when you are being serious in the whaling thread? 9 times out of 10 you wouldn't, because it would be distracting others and detracting from a positive conversation you might have been having with Eph or whoever else in that thread. Please try and act towards threads you don't think you'd have a postive effect on, the exact same way you want the threads you like posting in to be treated.

[1ight]

Just wanna add a note, that there are many interpretations of the book of revelations (Revelation in the bible, last book you can find inside the Biblia) and to be honest, you can't say that any of em is the 100% right interpretation. You also have to take a note while reading the revelations, that it isn't in a chronologic order, we don't know in what order things will happend. Also taking the note when the book of revelations was written, what kind of picture/discribing language was precent at that time. If it was described in the language we use now, then surely it would be written down differently.

"Christianity is Monotheistic correct? Then how can a man (Jesus) be a God? Did not God create him? If so, then there cannot be two Gods, or else you'd be going against one of your fundemental beliefs. Purely inconsistent logic.
"

Theism, the Christian belief, Theos (Theos is the Greek word for "God" used in the New Testament). While Deism, is the god of philophers, a god that made all and then just went to sleep, shortly desribed.

But lemme answer you about the god thing. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Father isn't the Son nor the Holy Spirit. The Son isn't the Father nor the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit isn't the father nor the Son. Jesus is the Son, and his Father is Yahve/God/Adonai. They are 3 in 1, Adonai echad, but 3 different persons.

Bob, I said I wrote kinda offtopic. Well bob, science still doesn't save you, science doesn't give you salvation. And sure, it is your thing in life to choose what to believe in, I don't deny that. If you say the concept of God and many events in the bible, do you mean that you can prove that the whole bible is false? And are you sure it is a right interpretation? The bible is more then words, just by looking at one place can't describe the whole. Its like looking at a picture but you can only see one corner of it, not the whole picture.

k, well I'm off cleaning my house and making some food now, I'd love to give more time into writing and thinking, but I think that would take a life time wouldn't it? :>

[Lucon]

That depends. Did you feel "self-assured" as you wrote your last few posts?

It's different when you're right.

[Tone]

Well bob, science still doesn't save you, science doesn't give you salvation. And sure, it is your thing in life to choose what to believe in, I don't deny that.

Im sorry to say that, much to the fear of the religious, science is starting to turn inward via biotechnology which will do such things as extend lifespan and alter state of consciousness, meaning science will save you by emulating heaven on earth. of course even those who have used drugs let alone the drug-naive would have trouble imagining higher states of consciousness beyond specific fixed and crude molecues.

[Pressure Drop]

ooo alot of reaction to what i said. to much to deal with individualy so i'll try to say what i think a little different to see if that clears anything up.


I'm not an atheist though i'm sure someone was reffering to me as one.

However i fail to see if you take a big open minded view about religion and look into it and how it is spread around the world that you cannot come to the conclusion that the major written religions are human in origin and not divine. You can call me close minded for this if you wish, but i still believe if you consider all the possibilties then believeing in one religion is through stubborness and blind faith. I cannot see how ppl can look at the many different religions and go yeah that's the right one. How they can't look back at history and see the spread of religion being ditated by rulers forcing their population to convert to their new religion with other religions dying out. The fact that the vast majourity off ppl are just the religion they are born into.

I don't think there is anything wrong in believing in a higher power like a god, and putting your faith in that. If that makes you feel happy then sure go for it. Personaly i think it would be unlikely, but i don't know how the universe started and i cannot rule out the possibility of a god. However if your going to claim that one particular religion is "right" then i think your more close minded than myself. Also to me the written religions are flawed and they don't make alot of sense.

What annoys me, and i realise what i have said has annoyed others - that is the way of the world i'm afriad - is when people try and convert to a perticular religion or preach from an out dated book trying to scare the nieve and vunrable into following them. I stand by this as bullying and evanglical christians fall heavily into this category.


You can consider me close minded if you wish but i'm still entitled to my opinion and these forums are about expressing opinions. They won't change the world and if you don't like what i say, start ignoring my posts. We shouldn't treate these forums above what they are, there just message boards where a group off ppl post shit they think. We aren't the most informed best educated ppl in the world and the quality of the posts such as this one reflects this.