Israel / Lebanon Shit storm

[Jonesy]

Not good.... not good at all

Israel gave Syria 72 hour Ultimatum
London-based Arabic language newspaper Al-Hayat says Israel gave Syria 72 hours to stop Hizbullah’s activity, bring about release of kidnapped IDF troops. ‘Israel will not end military activity until new situation created that will prevent Syria, Iran from using terror organizations to threaten its security,’ newspaper quotes Pentagon official as saying

The London-based Arabic language newspaper Al-Hayat reported Saturday that “Washington has information according to which Israel gave Damascus 72 hours to stop Hizbullah’s activity along the Lebanon-Israel border and bring about the release the two kidnapped IDF soldiers or it would launch an offensive with disastrous consequences.”

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...275886,00.html

If they launch an offensive against Syria... well just look at my two posts above this one. We're talking about something that is a few breaths away from being World War III.


edit: This is from a solitary Arab source and I'm not hearing anything about it in other places so it could just be propaganda.

[Subjugation]

I think it's a pretty smart plan, to be honest. My guess is that Israel and the US are working together in a type of counter-offensive---in the manner that N Korea and Iran have been waging against the US.

And as much as I personally disagree with the killing of civillians, I don't really see why Lebanon, Iran and Syria care, considering they support Hezbollah---which is all about killing civies.

It seems like we're on the brink of WW3, but that's only when you combine the threat of N Korea with the threat of Iran. And since NK has few allies in their pissing contest against the US/Japan, I would guess the most logical course will be containment, instead of conflict. Iran is a different matter, however.

[gran guerrero]

I think it's a pretty smart plan, to be honest. My guess is that Israel and the US are working together in a type of counter-offensive---in the manner that N Korea and Iran have been waging against the US.

And as much as I personally disagree with the killing of civillians, I don't really see why Lebanon, Iran and Syria care, considering they support Hezbollah---which is all about killing civies.

It seems like we're on the brink of WW3, but that's only when you combine the threat of N Korea with the threat of Iran. And since NK has few allies in their pissing contest against the US/Japan, I would guess the most logical course will be containment, instead of conflict. Iran is a different matter, however.

get off the chat im on. your perma hated.

[Subjugation]

Sorry, what I meant to say is---everyone should just give peace a chance, man. It's like...totally possible. :wub:

[gran guerrero]

me and sub worked our differences out and i taught him how to spell pussy properly in farsi.

[Liquid Blue]

E-mail from someone trapped in Lebanon, I'm breaking it into 3 posts, here it is.

I have been worried sick since this shit started, my cousin is currently working for the UN and is stuck in lebanon, hes on a contract right now... i just an email from him.. its a good read... My whole side of my dads family is in the south.. most of my mom's family is pretty spread out around... Couple of my cousins are enrolled in the army there or w/e.... well this is what he had to say.

ALI SAYS:

"I'm in east beirut now. I really wish I could send out emails everyday -
because i am contiuously hearing of one atrocity after another and i
definitely can remember all of them now. Unfortunately the electricity
comes and goes and my internet connection hasn't worked for a couple days.
i am in an internet cafe now in east beirut.

i think the situation here is absolutely unimaginable for those of us
abroad. i remember watching the American bombardment of Baghdad. i was
both "shocked and awed". the feeling now is unexplainable... adrenaline,
anxiety, terror, delirium, sleeplessness. If parts of this email dont make
sense it’s because the Israeli “defense” forces haven’t let us sleep for
several days. There will be no form or order to this email. Obviously i
dont have the luxury of taking my time and I’m writing things off the top
of my head.

Having to write this email is an overwhelming responsibility and I’m not
sure I can portray the situation as accurately as I would like, but I’ll
try. What’s happening now in Beirut constitute crimes against humanity.
Please understand that there are a million thoughts running through my
head at the moment and its hard to get them organized.

The main transportation infrastructure in southern Lebanon has been almost
completely destroyed. There are mass civilian casualties in the south of
the country and the southern suburbs of the city. A group of families
escaping their village in the south after the Israeli government called
for civilians to “not be where hisbullah lives and operates” (this message
rained down on us in the form of flyers with subtle creases down the
middle horizontally and vertically so that they flutter gently down - on
bright green paper) were speeding down the highway in sour heading for
saida. The pick up truck was hit with a missile killing 23 people mostly
children. Never experienced anything like this before. Watching innocent chidlren
dying on the streets.I just want to come home.
Theres many other reports of cars being targeted on the main
coastal highway – those of you who have been here before know this highway
well I;m sure. There is footage on television of mass civilian casualties.
The “idf” bombed the airport several times, the main Beirut port (right
behind my office), and the port in jounieh, a Christian town north of
Beirut. They are also pursuing strikes against an impotent and defenseless
Lebanese army, but the main target and victims of the terrorist offensive
have been civilian infrastructure and people. They are trying to bomb the
population into submission.

[Liquid Blue]

The stated target of the Israeli actions is hisbullah surrender. Hisbullah
is an organization that was born out of the Israeli/Palestine conflict.
When the Israelis invaded lebanon in 82, a loose network of shia groups
fought against the occupation and the presence of multinational forces in
the country. Members of this network carried out the first suicide
bombings in modern history – aimed at the American barracks in Lebanon –
killing 243 service men. They are widely held responsible for liberating
south Lebanon, which was occupied for over two decades. This network
slowly evolved into an organized political party – complete with members
of parliament and ministers. They have an armed wing that, with the help
of an alliance with a popular Christian leader, has balanced the power in
Lebanon and has given a voice to an otherwise marginalized community. they
represent the most historically socio-economically disadvantaged group
(also the biggest minority) – there is no majority. It so happens that the
shia muslims in the south and the Palestinians were the biggest victims of
the long term israeli occupation. It’s a lot more complicated than that,
but I want to get to what’s actually happening.

I am 4 or 5 kilometers away from the heaviest bombings taking place in the
densely populated and socio-economically disadvantaged neighborhoods in
the southern suburbs. Mostly in haret hreik, a relatively poor but vibrant
(used to be) neighborhood, where I lived for 2 and a half months. The
continuous air and sea attacks are absolutely deafening and unlike any
other sound. I think we're almost as close as we can be to the heavy
bombing without being in direct danger - a small christian neighbourhood
called ain el remeneh seperates us and the southern suburbs. if you look
up a map of beirut - i am in fern el chebak - the bombings are in the
southern suburbs - right outside of the city - ghobeiri, bir el abed,
MOSTLY haret hreik, msharafiyeh, borj el brajne, bir hassan, rweiss,
spheir, and several other places. The bombing strategy is perverted. They
bombard heavily then wait just enough time for your nerves to calm and
silence to be restored after which the come back for another round. The
“idf” is infamous for bombing their target, waiting just enough time for
the fire trucks, ambulances, and helpful ppl to arrive and then they come
back and bomb the same target – this was happening all night. From the
looks of it, the Israelis are destroying the southern suburbs. The
lighthouse in west Beirut has also been bombed. Unlike the first night,
the fighter jets can no longer be seen. Today is unseasonably cloudy.
Thick clouds blanket the sky completely. I read something about this
tactic months ago - there's some chemical that is released into the sky
created a clouds - i forget the naem of the chemical. Yesterday it rained
a little.

What sickens me is that our government has been complacently complicit.
The refusal of the international community to step in and exert pressure,
not just on Israeli, but all parties involved, shows how impotent this
world actually is against the geopolitical agendas of the American and
Israeli government.

The Israelis have destroyed the main roads from the south to Beirut and
all but one or two to Syria. There is virtually no way out of Lebanon at
the moment and a complete blockade has been imposed by israel. The
minister of foreign affairs in Canada apparently announced that there
would be an evacuation of 10 000 cdn citizens – there are 50 000 in this
country and we are all citizens – we’re all equal and NO ONE deserves
special treatment. Don’t believe what you hear - according to sources at
the embassy, the evac announcement (if there was one) was completely
false. We are staying put for now and last i heard they were "working on
plan".

Continued below~

[Liquid Blue]

I want to repeat this point – THERE ARE 50 000 CANADIANS IN THIS COUNTRY.
I think we might be a little decensitized when it comes to watching poor
arabs getting blown up. I hope atleast the 50 000 figure will hit home
with some in Canada.

50 000 canadian citizens. They are not more important then anyone else in
this country - canadian or not - at the moment. Just remember as all this
is happening - as the israelis unleash there vast arsenal of weapons of
mass destruction on the people of lebanon - as they destroy the
infrastructure of an already war weary country slowly trying to get back
on it's feet - as they change the balance of power to suit there own
self-interested agenda - there are 50 000 people who share YOUR
citizenship being directly affected by the israeli actions.

There are 300 000 lebanese in Canada.

50 000 canadian citizens in this country.

Where is our government? i'm not demanding an evaucation plan, i'm the
embassy staff is working hard to secure a good plan and the safety of
canadians when it's time. I am demanding that our government condemn and
more importantly work to prevent the offensive action by israel. Is our
government complicit or are the simply impotent?

It was reported that the Israelis struck a military base in Syria proper.
The Syrians have denied the hit. I wonder if the Israelis were testing
the waters and Syria responded “positively” – surrendering without
surrendering. Israels offensive is bigger then the two Israeli prisoners
– this terrorist action is aimed at reshaping the region and destroying
years of development in Lebanon. It is without precedent and against
international law. I just heard that the prime minister plans to send
lebanese troops to the south apparently to take control (engage hisbullah
in the south)... could this be the beginning of a another civil war? i
havent confirmed the report. also just heard that 9 civilians were killed
in Haifa. Proportionately those casualties are minor but none the less
they are crimes and highly symbolic. I really wish there is some kind of
balanced reporting happening over there. Check out nahar net - google it
- for updates. also i'm sure www.democracynow.org is doing a good job
reporting.

The history of military prisoner taking by Hezbollah has been positive –
up until now. I don’t remember the exact figures, but I believe once they
traded something like 430 Lebanese prisoners for the corpses of 3 israeli
soldiers. Another time there was a bigger trade with over 1000 Lebanese
released. Since the military operation that resulted in the capture of 2
Israeli soldiers, hisbullah has been calling for negotiation for the
release of three Lebanese prisoners held in Israeli jails and the 1000
illegally held Palestinians in Israel (no trial, no charges – think
guantanamo – minors and women also). Preferring open war fare, Israel
chose not to negotiate. Instead they have taken Lebanon “back 20 years” as
they promised to do and according to an official “IDF” document I saw with
my own eyes they will “avoid civilian casualties, but not at the expense
of our own security”. Hospitals in the south are overflowing with
casualties and pieces of murdered children. I saw the footage. In the
spirit of unity, the Lebanese people from all over the country are calling
television stations giving their phone numbers in an offer to house
refugees – of which there are MANY. There are 600 people living in a small
park in Beirut – the only public park I know of in this city. There are
many many more refugees.

Our government refuses to condemn the terrorist offensive and the israeli
use of weapons of mass destruction in Lebanon. They are indirectly
responsible, as well as all those governments that do not act, for the
mass killing, the destruction, the crimes against humanity, the murders,
the terror, inflicting this country as i write this. As citizens, we also
bare responsibility for the actions of our government. Cleary, politics
and money are more important than human life. Especially the lives of poor
people – who have been used as pawns by ALL PARTIES involved and are now
paying the heaviest price.

I find myself debating whether or not hisbullah should give in to the
Israelis. Should they disarm and give back the prisoners? Unfortunately
doing so will not bring back those who died and will not rebuild the
destroyed homes and infrastructure. Israel will not take responsibility
for the destruction and havoc cause by there weapons of mass destruction
in this country - even if they get their way. The will not compensate the
families of those who were murdered - they will not rebuild and they will
not provide food or shelter for the refugges. Slowly the southern suburbs
are looking more and more like jenin refugee camp after the Israeli
military machine was through with it. Unfortunately, a hisbullah surrender
will justify the terrorist actions of the Israeli government and will be
interpreted internationally as a victory over so-called terror. What to
do?

Another part of me is avoiding the ideological debate at the moment. This
is no time for philosophical and political debate. The action on the
ground by the terrorist government of Israel - and all of those who
support their actions - is in no way justifiable. The disproportionate
murdering and use of force by the “idf” is dispicable. The impotence of
the international community, Arab governments and the west is disgusting.
The inaction of the UN is morally indefensible.

I suggest you read chapters 6, 7 and 8 of the charter of the untied
nations. just heard that the israelis gave 45 mins to clear southern
lebanon - is this the beginning of an invasion - and how will people clear
the south WITH NO ROADS OR BRIDGES TO DRIVE ON???

Those who are terrorized, whether israeli or lebanese, are also easily
radicalized - being here makes it easy to understand why.

I think my emotions got the better of me several times throughout this
email - but i stand by everything i just wrote. those who know me well
know that i usually try to be politically correct - obviously in times
like this - it's almost impossible. I feel better now that I got some of
these thoughts out of head. We are holding up fine and my family who live
in the southern suburbs escaped in time. Four of them (including my 90+
year old grandfather) are staying with me and my Canadian and German
neighbors. Hopefully they haven't lost their homes. The bombardments have
started again – well they haven’t really stopped since midnight last
night. I’m in a safe neighborhood and there’s no direct danger here. I
think today there is a demo at the Canadian parliament. Please go. I would
appreciate it if you can forward this letter and circulate it at the demo.
see you soon. To My family, I love you all! Sousou, i got your text, I miss you
I will be home soon, i promise!

Peace.
Ali"

Last bit, take the time to read it all. Powerful stuff.

[FarScape]

sad but screw him...

any normal country would fight back and defened her people.

he can call it terror, crimes, israeli killers, he can call it how ever he wants...
the fact is, we got attacked, we are defending ourself by attacking back.

war is really sad, but HEY, israel always wanted peace with her neighbors, but funny is, they attack us every time, and when we defend ourself, its an israeli attack on them.

the sad thing is, stupid people buy it.

[404 Not Found]

I agree with you. It is odd that the people of Lebanon can be herded like sheep and be complacent with the way their own government has moved nowhere. I guess they are ok in Lebanon having Terrorist Militia's running the southern part of their country? Not to leave out that they have them involved in the government as they have seats in council.

Why is it that when Israel has had prisoner exchanges in the past, Israel will free 100's of these Hammas or Hezbollah prisoners (all alive), only to receive the remains of dead Israeli's in return? I doubt that the prisoners taken by either Hammas or Hezbollah are even still alive!

F' them and the Arab League for not working with the countries in this area for the past 3 - 4 decades. Supplying weapons is not an answer! They share half the responsibility of the destabilization! But this will not happen, as 1/2 of these wack jobs hate one another due to their Muslim belief of being Shia or Sunni...leaving out a few other faction, but they all seem to have no trust in one another and it seems that they enjoy killing one another.

If the Lebanese people had half a brain, they would have made decisive changes and worked with the surrounding countries in a means of trade and stabilization. I am sure it would have been great for Lebanon and Israel to have finally had friendly borders and trade...but that cannot happen since Syria would not allow the sheepish people of Lebanon to decide for themselves. Am so sick of these wack job religious zealots that control governments. F'm all!

What the F' did France do to help Lebanon, since they had so much invested there? They sit on the U.N. Security Council, yet it seems that they never tried to persuade the government in Lebanon to take full control of their country since Israel gave up the occupied territory. The U.N. is a joke all in its own with corrupt leadership and a lack of any power to do anything to help and change this world.

The world is F'd up and it would seem to me that it's not getting better.

[Capital Knockers]

All I have to say is simple. This has happend over and over. The stupid fucking Arabs can't control their own countries, and just argue that Isreal are the occupants of their land. So they don't mind looking the other way when terrorist groups launch attacks from their soil. Isreal has fucking beat them before, a 3-front war. They can do it again - either Lebanon accepts this reality, or Isreal blows the shit outta their country again.

Deal with the terrorists using your soil, or deal with Isreal blowing the crap out of your country, simple enough. (it's true we don't hear about the shit Isreal does the the Arabs as often because of all this post-911 arab hating shit though)

[genocidal]

It's not like terrorist acts aren't committed by Israelis against Palestinians and Lebanese as well. Sure they weren't on the scale that this attack was but the good guy/bad guy distinctions made in this thread and by the US government are worthless and misleading at best and, more likely, dichotomizing - which will only worsen the situation.

I agree to an extent with Capital. Probably Israel will come out "on top" (if there will be such a thing after the conflict is over) because of US support but if this becomes a Syria/Iran/Lebanon vs. Israel thing I can see it becoming a complete mess of terrorism that will ravage the Middle East (but mostly Israel) for decades. The funny part is, neither Muslims, Jews, nor Christians would like to see Jerusalum destroyed because that's essentially what the whole conflict is over; ownership of everyone's holy city.

A wise man once said that we destroy what we love.

[Capital Knockers]

It's not like terrorist acts aren't committed by Israelis against Palestinians and Lebanese as well. Sure they weren't on the scale that this attack was but the good guy/bad guy distinctions made in this thread and by the US government are worthless and misleading at best and, more likely, dichotomizing - which will only worsen the situation.

I agree to an extent with Capital. Probably Israel will come out "on top" (if there will be such a thing after the conflict is over) because of US support but if this becomes a Syria/Iran/Lebanon vs. Israel thing I can see it becoming a complete mess of terrorism that will ravage the Middle East (but mostly Israel) for decades. The funny part is, neither Muslims, Jews, nor Christians would like to see Jerusalum destroyed because that's essentially what the whole conflict is over; ownership of everyone's holy city.

A wise man once said that we destroy what we love.

Yo i got it! We should do like a timeshare thing. Everyone gets the city for equal parts of the year. There we go, Middle-East Crisis solved :grin:

After all, send some of those Western timeshare sales guys over there. Either the plan works, or everyone just kicks the shit outta the sales guy.. forgetting about the original problem.

[FarScape]

It's not like terrorist acts aren't committed by Israelis against Palestinians and Lebanese as well.

I guess the 11/9 was a defensive action by usama bin laden againts the Terror that USA is committing...

get a brain, rude man.
<_<

*sarcasm!!!

[404 Not Found]

What if Jerusalem was set up like the Vatican City. Create its own police force and not allow any one country ownership of this city. Won't ever happen!

As far as terrorism goes, I have never heard of an Israeli load himself up with explosives and go to an Arab marketplace to blow up innocent women & children. This is an act of a coward IMHO. Some see the way Israel has destroyed the homes of so-called terrorist; a terrorist act itself, yet they do not hide their faces. I guess there is a line that needs to be determined as to what some will see as terrorism and what is not?

Beheading captured western people on TV in Iraq is ok and it made for great ratings I am sure in Iran & Syria as well as other anti-western countries, yet a cartoon in a newspaper is a far worse act that required rioting and deaths worldwide? I just do not get the morals of these peoples in the Middle East.

I have many acquaintances in work and outside of work whom are Muslim in the States and we have chatted in all honesty about our feelings of what transpires amongst the factions fighting across the Middle East; they too are just as much bothered and mystified by the acts of violence that have all but nullified the peace process. They, nor do I place blame upon the innocent, but rather the Clerics for creating such problems for what they feel is more of an excuse of using religion to gain power over their peoples and others.

There is no easy answer. I have read from newspapers online from Syria, Saudi Arabia Quatar...(www.worldnews.com) that it is easy to solve the territrory problem. All the Isrealis must do is leave Israel and give the occupied land back to the palestinians. Easy huh? NOT!! Ok, so the US should do the same for Mexico and give them back New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Texas & California. Could also be said for Brazil and anyone with a background from Portugal should get the hell out of there.

It just will not happen. Get over it and try and live with one another...like that would happen. The world is getting smaller and the populations are growing. In another 50 years how much free open space will actually be around? Feels like we all live on top of one another as it is and it's getting pretty f'n cramped on this planet.