Conspiratorially speaking seeking facts not theory

[Epinephrine]

if you say something is well documented, then you should be able to show it. all statements should be verifiable, i agree heavensents ideas need a lot more verification, but that doesn't mean the normal people are off the hook. just as an axample, copernicus was once a conspiracy theorist, and the pope never felt a need to prove what everyone knew, that the earth was at the center.

this isn't to you epi (and if you ever want to apoligize for calling me mentally deranged because i have a different opinion, that would be quickly accepted): if you are well informed enough to call heaven a fucking idiot, then you must be able to tell us why building 7 fell down, and why there is a hole in the dirt with even less wreckage than the pentagon where flight 73 supposedly fell down. even if you take out a plane with a jet figher, you're still gonna have bodies and wreckage, not everything incinerates, right?

I already told you, me called you mentally deranged was a compliment, meaning you have a capacity to give interesting commentary which is both witty and intelligent. Just because you assume I meant something else doesn't mean it's true. This is akin to how 'America should not police the world' in Reaver's view had nothing to do with what anyone else in the world would view that comment aside from you and Reaver. Considering you're the one who originally told me that you shouldn't just assume anything anyone says without listening to what they mean, you should understand this my mentally deranged friend.

you don't care what he's talking about, you just voice your opinion to what you think most people tend to talk about, thats valuable input thanks.

As for 9/11, this is one of the most concise summaries debunking the 9/11 conspiracy myths I remember:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html

[Vatican Assassin]

oh epi, i thoguht you were just fucking with me that whole time about the word deranged meaning interesting, intelligent and witty. honestly, if you want to call someone intesting, witty, or intelligent, i suggest you don't call them deranged, because the dictionary says deranged means: Text: having or showing a very abnormal or sick state of mind. i can see how you would see me as being abnormal, but deranged adds that sick connotation which some people may find demeaning.

kolar, i guess its up to each of us to decide which explanation for these weird inconsitancies makes the most sense. i'm not sure how a passport from the one of the terrorists survived the WTC crash and was found on the street after the buildings fell down, I either have to believe in the true power of paper, or believe that it was planted evidence. what I was trying to do was sort of moderate the discussion, by asking people to stick to theories and supportive evidence, instead of just opinions and flaming. you refute the disappearing tapes with an actual theiry and reasoning, which I can appreciate, even if I disagree.

[Cylor]

There is nothing you can do about it. Accept it like the Florida election and the rising body count and move the fuck on like the rest of America, we've got football to watch!

[Epinephrine]

It's true. Planes never did hit the WTC or the Pentagon. They just flew a few planeloads of passengers into a secret base, disposed of the planes and killed all the people in mass unmarked graves, then sent some missles into the pentagon and rigged some explosives into the WTC to make sure these buildings would collapse. Then they rigged security cameras to show 19 terrorists getting onto airplanes, faked the Pennsylvania flight 93 crash with 'fake' suicide terrorists (likely military recruits) so that the freightened passengers would telephone their relatives saying that terrorists had hijacked their planes. More likely, these passengers were telephoning from the secret base where they landed before they were all executed.

Then the government invented massive amounts of evidence showing the movements of the 19 hijackers traveling from all around the world, spending years in German and European universities and cities (with the full cooperation of 'Old European' authorities who actually pretend to not support the US in public but actually secretly do.

They managed to confiscate every single proper recording of the events, change structural blueprints and paid off thousands 'so-called' experts to testify that the buildings actually did collapse from the airplanes alone, bribed/blackmailed air traffic controllers into pretending this actually happened, and planted ridiculous amounts of fake evidence to obscure the truth.


By the way this super amazing military-industrial-political complex which crafted this conspiracy which involved literally thousands of people being co-opted into this without anyone leaking 'the truth' was so competent that they couldn't figure out how to make it look like Saddam actually had a nuclear or biological weapons program once they had occupied Iraq.

[Vatican Assassin]

It's true. Planes never did hit the WTC or the Pentagon. They just flew a few planeloads of passengers into a secret base, disposed of the planes and killed all the people in mass unmarked graves, then sent some missles into the pentagon and rigged some explosives into the WTC to make sure these buildings would collapse. Then they rigged security cameras to show 19 terrorists getting onto airplanes, faked the Pennsylvania flight 93 crash with 'fake' suicide terrorists (likely military recruits) so that the freightened passengers would telephone their relatives saying that terrorists had hijacked their planes. More likely, these passengers were telephoning from the secret base where they landed before they were all executed.

Then the government invented massive amounts of evidence showing the movements of the 19 hijackers traveling from all around the world, spending years in German and European universities and cities (with the full cooperation of 'Old European' authorities who actually pretend to not support the US in public but actually secretly do.

They managed to confiscate every single proper recording of the events, change structural blueprints and paid off thousands 'so-called' experts to testify that the buildings actually did collapse from the airplanes alone, bribed/blackmailed air traffic controllers into pretending this actually happened, and planted ridiculous amounts of fake evidence to obscure the truth.


By the way this super amazing military-industrial-political complex which crafted this conspiracy which involved literally thousands of people being co-opted into this without anyone leaking 'the truth' was so competent that they couldn't figure out how to make it look like Saddam actually had a nuclear or biological weapons program once they had occupied Iraq.

the sad thing is some people will read this nonsense and think it holds water and somehow disproves the possibility of a black op. epi has his mind set, but i implore others like galleleo to continue to think about the facts critically. i could say something like epi just did, and attack the officially accepted story by creating a satire of it, but i would much rather deal with what we can learn, and what it may imply. if i did want to reply with something that means and solves nothing, and only serves to halt any chance at an interesting debate, i would say something like this:

"its true. for the first time in the history of the planet a building (WTC 7) fell to the floor from "small localized fires" in a neat pile just like an implosion. and although it is standard procedure for jet fighters to scramble and intercept planes that deviate from their course which the FAA are always tracking, they were asleep for 3 planes in the same day even though they had 50 minutes of warnings from the FAA. fortunately we know who one of the hijackers was because we recovered a passport from the wreckage of 9/11. yup, thats right, we found a passport at the bottom of ground zero, but could't find a single passenger body..."

but as i just tried to tell kolar, these sort of posts just incite people's emotions, deal with no facts, are wildly speculative, and simply attempt to debunk one particular theory which the author himself has pieced together and I personally have yet to hear of (planes didnt hit WTC? whoever said that, and what was everyont looking at then?) don't forget to add the phrase "ridiculous amounts" or "massive amounts" before everything you say do make it seem even more absurd.

do you think its unbelievable that the FBI can confiscate tapes? or that experts can be bribed? you don't think the CIA is capable of planting evidence? thats naive i think.

now as to why this group of conspirators didn't plant WMDs in iraq, thats a good point, as they could obviously do so if they had the power to carry off 9/11. unfonrtunately i doubt most of those who reads this care what i think about it. we all seem to have found the answers, or we were born with them, and we don't care to broaden our own perspectives by allowing the theories of others to be taken seriously. wish i was wrong.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

Silly Epi, weighing proven scientific results from repeatable experiments with common sense. No doubt you're some left-wingnut liberal Sinn Fein-supporting commie. Nice try, fuckface.

We all know where the truth lies, and that place is somewhere just inside of something ripped straight from 24. We all know that Hollywood is, in fact, a hyper-realistic retelling of things that could actually happen and are probably happening at this very minute. The government has near-Jedi powers of persuasion and the coordination abilities of twelve thousand wedding planners.

Why don't you wake up? Some day soon, you're going to wake up and Dick Cheney himself will be right there, in your living room, having his way with your mother. That's right. We're talking serious, XXX, two-hole action with the woman who gave you birth. And the sad part? You won't be able to do anything about it, because your ass doesn't care enough. Get with the program, pinko scum, or get the fuck out of the way.

There is no middle anymore! VIVE LA INTERNETS.

[Epinephrine]

As the Popular Mechanics link shows, WTC7 fell from both debris, bad design and localized fires. You can choose to just believe Heavensent's links and not mine, but if you do so, you have no authority to tell me and people like me to be more 'open'. You can't cherry pick 'evidence' that you like to believe, completely not believe the other evidence (testimony of countless experts who will collaborate the official version of events in published in reputable places) and say that you're the only one with a critical mind. That's pure ignorance and wishful thinking.

Personally I'd rather believe a respected publication with many, many, many years of history rather than some random website.


There's absolutely no question that probably not all the facts were released, that at some point people were lied to and so on. But most likely if there were any coverups it was for other reasons. Not wanting people to know more about the built-form of the pentagon for national security purposes. Not wanting the public to know exactly why they FBI and CIA didn't catch these terrorists beforehand to protect top officials and to deflect blame. Not wanting to take responsibility for spotty air force defense abilities as to the reason for planes not scrambling earlier (never mind the fact that geographically and practically if you just look at the location of bases, the speed of airplanes and average scramble times that it's completely plausible that the planes could have been late) as to protect top officials. Not giving too much thought about WHY such things happened because it was a convenient event to spur the Iraq invasion. Yes these are all very plausible things.

But to leap from massive amounts of evidence showing that it was indeed extremely likely that 19 suicide hijackers did fly planes into the WTC and pentagon and that's how they were destroyed/damaged to some belief that the entire thing was an inside job leaps into a level of completely incredibility that actual concrete evidence must be shown and not just a lot of 'isn't it just convenient that this just happened to happen?' questions.

Show me the explosives used to destroy WTC7 and if you are heavensent levels of conspiracy nut WTC1 and 2 as well. Show me the testimony of many reliable people that missiles hit the pentagon and that air traffic controllers were all lying about the plane being there. Show me evidence of actual orders telling air force pilots to stand down. Show me evidence of the military planting airplane wreckage within minutes of the plane crashing (see the popular mechanics link for a photograph of the plane wreckage in front of the pentagon and actual testimony from an investigator).

If you cannot show me ANY of this in cold hard evidence rather than just some interesting conjecture, I and most other intelligent people are going to have to go with the official story which has a lot more going for it.

[Epinephrine]

Silly Epi, weighing proven scientific results from repeatable experiments with common sense. No doubt you're some left-wingnut liberal Sinn Fein-supporting commie. Nice try, fuckface.

We all know where the truth lies, and that place is somewhere just inside of something ripped straight from 24. We all know that Hollywood is, in fact, a hyper-realistic retelling of things that could actually happen and are probably happening at this very minute. The government has near-Jedi powers of persuasion and the coordination abilities of twelve thousand wedding planners.

Why don't you wake up? Some day soon, you're going to wake up and Dick Cheney himself will be right there, in your living room, having his way with your mother. That's right. We're talking serious, XXX, two-hole action with the woman who gave you birth. And the sad part? You won't be able to do anything about it, because your ass doesn't care enough. Get with the program, pinko scum, or get the fuck out of the way.

There is no middle anymore! VIVE LA INTERNETS.

It's true, I do acknowledge that the entire 9/11 plot was actually 'leaked' to the public via the pilot episode of 'The Lone Gunmen' about a year before it happened. That's the spin off show based off the 3 conspiracy theorists from the X-Files.

[Reaver]

Epi, Vatican wasn't trying to say that aliens are landing in our backyards or that the government staged some elaborate plan and hid the planes in a bunker and killed witnesses from the plane, as far as I can tell.

In fact Vatican brings up some very good idea's, how many times in history has someone suggested something opposing to the norm, which actually turned out to be true, but was so drastically different that people couldn't accept it for a very long time. I'm not saying we should believe something because it's different than the norm, I'm saying we should accept that it's a possibility, a very unlikely possibility, but a possibility nonetheless (what you suggested is quite ridiculous, but I'm certain there are other feasible reasons other than the ones given). The extremely exaggerated scenario's are only really good for one thing, and that's for influencing people that aren't intelligent enough to pick up on what you're doing. It's easier to paint the person you disagree with as crazy rather than argue with their points. I agree with Vati, it's not unreasonable nor extremely crazy to question the information the government has issued as the truth.

Vatican was asking for evidence about the photo's or video's you talked about as extremely abundant evidence, and you didn't deliver. Mythrandir was also looking for some of this abundance. I'm still reading the link you offered, I probably won't be able to really get into it until tomorrow.


Oh I forgot to add, my usage of the word Police in that other thread was as poorly used as your usage of the word deranged. Although I'll admit, I was speaking from my own personal experience with the police, I shouldn't have used the word in that scenario because we're from different backgrounds and have different expectations and experiences with police.

[Vatican Assassin]

i never called you close minded epi, i said that you were not responding to any of the cherry picked pieces of evidence that were presented, you just made a satire that may have been funny but didn't help to prove a point. now you have made a lot of points, so i suppose i got you heading in the right direction.

of course as you know all the explosives have been blown up, and the top secret documents are top secret, so i can't bring forth anything you request. thats why these thinsg are and will most likely remain conspiracy theories. i can appreciate your reasoning for secrecy, that in itself obviously doesn't prove anything, but it lends the over-all case a little weight. but at least we're talking about the subject at hand, which was my intended goal.

now, we got 2 suspects. 1, osama and the terrorists, and 2. the establishment, whoever that may be, the bankers, the CEOs, the admirals, the leaders behind the leaders. i don't think popular mechanics is admissable evidence! turns out they went through a hotile take over right before they created the said article. oh man the plot gets even deeper epi can you believe it! now i'm not saying this means its all bs, and not worth discussion, i'll definately read it and try to respond to its claims, but i think you'll really want to read this which describes what i'm talking about. I bet this is the point that will make you a conspiracy nut 4 life!!

http://us-amnesia.blogspot.com/2007/04/excerpt-debunking-911-debunking.html

and concrete, im not sure where you're going with that one buddy, BUT I LIKE IT

[flibb]

I don't know if 9/11 was a conspiracy, but what the hell did it have to do with Iraq?

9/11 civilian deaths: 2974

Coalition military deaths in Afghanistan: 684
Afghan civilian deaths: thousands

Coalition military deaths in Iraq: 4218
Iraqi civilian/security force deaths: 36000

Meanwhile, there's a genocide happening in Darfur and no one gives a fuck.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

Epi, Vatican wasn't trying to say that aliens are landing in our backyards or that the government staged some elaborate plan and hid the planes in a bunker and killed witnesses from the plane, as far as I can tell.

Then what happened to all these people? The problem with conspiracy theories, at least in my case, is that there are even BIGGER holes that are never explained. It's always "this outrageous event happened--pay no attention to the events that would/should have been triggered by this outrageous scheme but failed to materialize."

In fact Vatican brings up some very good idea's, how many times in history has someone suggested something opposing to the norm, which actually turned out to be true, but was so drastically different that people couldn't accept it for a very long time.

We're not bringing up the old "geocentric vs. heliocentric model" now, are we? "Hey guys, remember when we thought trepaning was a good idea to let the demons out of your head if you were mentally ill?" We're not talking about broad ideas that aren't explainable by any other means--on one hand, you have people making some wild conjecture, and on the other hand you have thousands of professionals and eye-witnesses. Call it hubris or whatever you like, I tend to call it "not being retarded."

I'm not saying we should believe something because it's different than the norm, I'm saying we should accept that it's a possibility, a very unlikely possibility, but a possibility nonetheless (what you suggested is quite ridiculous, but I'm certain there are other feasible reasons other than the ones given).

It's also a possibility that my shit might spontaneously turn to platinum tomorrow morning, but I'm not holding my breath for that, either. In the meantime, I'm pretty sure I'm intelligent enough to know how my digestive tract works and deduce that my fresh-n'-steamy will be brown and of good poop consistency.

There's "ridiculous possibility", and then there's just making shit up because you don't know any better or refuse to accept that someone else might actually know more than you about a specific area of study. Since I can't be an expert on everything, I find that it's a decent idea to listen to people who have committed their entire lives to the study of a subject.

I'm not saying that it's wrong to challenge convention, but I am saying that maybe some things have such a ridiculous mountain of evidence that there's no good way of applying some totally convenient "It was all part of the plan." Do you think it's a good idea to question the Halocaust, then, too? I mean, there's a lot of people out there with "evidence" of that never happening. How about the moon landing?

My point is that there are a LOT of crazy fuckers out there, and a LOT of them have internet connections now. Just because some dude has a shitload of free time and a pirated copy of FrontPage doesn't mean he's got it all figured out.

I agree with Vati, it's not unreasonable nor extremely crazy to question the information the government has issued as the truth.

I'll be the first in line for the "Bush administration is shady as hell" rally, but seriously? You think they could make this happen and cover it all up? Without someone talking? Man, they can't even pull off a domestic spying program or shoot a single old man in the face without someone snitching. But yet they happened to involve hundreds (if not thousands) of people in an overarching scheme to incite a holy war, all while tricking the rest of the world? Nah, I don't buy it.

[Squeezer]

I can't believe there are people here that agree with heavensent.

I honestly have nothing positive to add to this conversation, I just want a marker for when this thread goes epic.

[HeavenSent]

Popular Mechanics has re-entered the media circus in an attempt to continue its 9/11 debunking campaign that began in March of last year. A new book claims to expose the myths of the 9/11 truth movement, yet it is Popular Mechanics who have been exposed as promulgating falsehoods while engaging in nepotism, shoddy research and agenda-driven politics.

As Jim Hoffman points out in his excellent rebuttal, "This bold assertion flies in the face of a published report of scramble frequencies that quotes the same Maj. Douglas Martin that is one of PM's cited experts!"

The article was released before analysis conducted by BYU physics Professor Steven Jones discovered traces of thermite in steel samples taken from the World Trade Center.

Debunking Popular Mechanics

[Vatican Assassin]

add another zero or two to the iraqi civilian death count

9/11 has nothing to do with iraq, but unfortunately, we are given the idea that all terrorists are working together, and all evil people are terrorists (it used to be communist, its different now) so boom there you go. iraq and iran have been mortal enemies for decades? who cares, history only distracts you from the present, iran is definately helping iraq out, lets bomb, erm, free them.

and whats the deal with pre-emptive warfare?! they could have a nuke bomb in 5-10 years, and they could bomb israel or usa, and they may even choose to, and we might not be able to stop it, so we better play it safe and nuke them now?

if you kill someone and say in court that you have reliable intelligence that you can't share that says that he was making a weapon and in 5-10 years it would be ready and he said he wanted to wipe my friend off the map so i killed him before he could do it, i don't think anyone would buy it, and i don't think any other countries are buying it anymore either. as soon as someone presents a possibility of putting an end to it, they may be able to do something to stop it. china '08

ok concrete, here we go, round one fight! (bong rip.... and away we gooooo!)

-the people on the planes are dead. doesnt matter how, id like to imagine planted pilots on the 4 planes with gas masks. gas is released, down they go, planes fly into a super high orbit and eject the passengers into space. meanwhile remote control dummy planes fly out of volcano underground lair and are flown into buildings. simple.

-as for your thousands of eye witness testimonies and experts, anyone has done research into this has seen the responders talking about explosions in the WTC, so you got your eyewitnesses we got ours, truce

-do you have to call us retarded? my feelings aren't hurt man, i can take it, but i don't see reaver or I calling you guys names, i see us pleading with you to just stick to the facts ma'am. we can do this without being condescending or rude.

-you say you listen to people who have dedicated their lives to their given fields. well check out the architects for 9/11 truth site.

http://www.ae911truth.org/

look at their credentials and tell me they are lacking in experience. if thats the only requirement, then you got a problem. unless you automatically write them off because they think they poop platinum, which they do

-i don't think the amount of evidence against the holocaust compares to 911. the moon landing hoax however...

-the fact that there are crazy people with internets is irrelevent.

-yes, you make a good point, same as epi, that if a bush can pull this off and keep it hidden, why can't he keep other things hidden, why is he losing so much ground to china is another question. no, for this theory to make sense, it will have to be oprchestrated by an institution greater than the US gov't, one that does not want USA's war in raq to be justified to the world with the discovery of WMD's, one that does not want the USA to progress economically. of course, this line of reasoning makes the event even more large in scope, and most likely even more far fetched to those who are skeptical of grand conspiracies.