John McCain vs Barack Obama Mega-Politic-Thread of super fun awesomeness.

[gran guerrero]

why do you guys bother arguing, obviously none of you are going to change their beliefs on the matter. Just go vote and shut the fuck up already.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-salute.htm - Thats pretty much saying America sucks right there, heres a "concrete example of that". No we aren't on top of our game, we are becoming a nation of pussies and whiners. Too many people sit around and wait for someone to make fun of their group and then go out and cry about it until something is done about it. We can't say the Pledge of Allegiance in schools anymore, we can't pray in school anymore.. because anti Americans and athiests might get offended? The middle class is shrinking, but don't you think that... that might be because of oil? The cost of oil affects every aspect of our lives, whether it be food prices, getting to work, or even going on vacation.

Jesus, I'm betting you're one of those people who think that wearing a flag pin dictates whether or not you're a "true patriot." What a bunch of complete bullshit. A nation of whiners? Is this the Ann Coulter Show all of a sudden? I'm sorry you and your hyper-Christian buddies can't praise Jesus in a PUBLIC school for Western expansion anymore. I really feel for you. I have yet to hear anything about how this is "anti-American" at all. This whole "blah blah is ANTI-AMERICAN! CRUCIFY THEM!" is fucking childish and fails to actually identify, much less solve any problems.

So you're saying that the middle class is shrinking because of the price of oil... you think that the price of oil is ever going to recede? You think that "more drilling" is going to push it down? You're a fool if you think that. Oil's never going back down in price, not even to the point that it was just two years ago. By your estimation, then, we're doomed to the fact that the middle class is going to be gone. What then?

Well lets see, as a 23 year old, no I don't have my first house yet, I rent, however I am already invested in my retirement through my 401k at work. And before you make another ignorant guess on my life, I was never a "spoiled suburban white kid" I worked since I was 16, I moved out on my own at 18, and have been since, and now finally I work for a large corporation and have a decent life. An apartment, a truck, a retirement plan. And you know what, maybe I have lost some money in my 401k, but I know it will come back, because that is how free markets work. Are you the type of person that goes out to the bank and withdraws all his money when the economy is bad? My guess is that you are. Hey, there is a FDIC now, so don't worry so much.. Now I suggested you shut the fuck up before you look like one of those stupid fawning Obama supporters who believes in his nazi vision of change.

How am I making an "ignorant guess" when everything I said was true? How is that ignorant at all? The fact is that you're talking out of your ass on subjects that you have little-to-no actual experience with at all. That is FACT, by your OWN ADMISSION.

On the other hand, YOUR guess WAS completely wrong--I don't have more than 100k in a bank, so no, I don't (and haven't) withdrawn my money from any bank. I agree that that's silly. So do most of the people that you'd be so quick to identify as "anti-American."

We do need to ween ourself off oil, but slowly, and we still have at least another 60-100 years of oil left. So we have plenty of time to work on these other means of energy.

"60-100 years of oil" assumes a nearly flat growth rate in global energy usage, which is all but a fairy tale. Eastern countries are ramping up their own industrial revolutions, and their demand for energy will most likely outstrip even the US in a short period. And all that page that you linked to said was that yes, there's a problem and we need to solve it. And it was published before the true "gas crunch" of the last year even happened.

But in the meantime, we need to go ahead and drill for our own oil. You are right.. we might not see production for another 5-10 years even if we started drilling now, but I think that we both know from when President Bush lifted the executive drilling ban that much of the price of oil is from speculators. I don't know about where you live, but it dropped nearly a dollar in Houston. Also, how long do you think it will take for Obama and America to come up with a solution for replacing oil... much longer than 5-10 years.. I don't know about you but I would much rather be drilling for oil while we look for new ways to solve the problem.

You think the price drop was directly linked to Bush lifting the executive drilling ban? How? The Congressional ban is still in effect--Bush's move essentially did absolutely bubkus to the price of oil. Yes, most of the cost of oil is from speculation, you're right about that. And yes, it may very well take a long time to completely roll out a replacement for our oil dependence, but why wouldn't we start now? We already missed the boat years ago, and we're paying the price RIGHT NOW. If we sit back for another few years and say "oh well, shit sux right now, but we'll figure it out in the future--in the meantime, let's not curb our usage at all", we'll be having this same discussion in the future. Drilling for oil now isn't going to change that fact. Ideally, we should almost push for a Manhattan-Project-style push for renewable energy, but that won't happen because there are people like you who want to take a "wait and see" attitude on the subject.

Basically every windmill has to be "covered" by another form of energy be it coal or nuclear in case there is no wind. On top of that, if there is too much wind they have to be shut down because the generators can't hold the energy it produces.

No one's saying wind is the be-all-end-all. No one technology is going to solve the problem. What I'm saying is that oil isn't keystone either. And we don't have to go ripping up natural habitats to harness some wind or solar energy.

Not to mention that you're using examples of current technology. Yes, there's currently no ultra-efficient means of storing or transporting energy captured by wind technology. But that's today--if we put some actual thought into solving those problems, who knows what's possible?

Yeah, hes investing a ton of money into it.. because if the plan happens he will make billions of dollars doing it, there is your motivation. He wants to get rich, not save the planet.

Right, he knows that the money's about to dry up with petroleum. I'm not saying he's a philanthropist, I'm saying he's a realist who sees the where things are going.

We have over 100 years left of oil just in the reserves that we actually know about, and there might be more oil in the north pole than there is in the rest of the world put together. And yes we do need to drill drill drill until we are completely dry while looking for alternatives. We don't need to STOP drilling while looking for alternatives, that is a recipe for economic disaster. You think your suffering right now, wait until gas is 15 dollars a gallon and then you will look back at this time in your life and think about how fucking amazing it was.

Right, let's just go into some of the few natural reserves we have left on the planet and fuck whatever's in our way, right? Who the fuck was ever helped by nature, right? This planet is OURS, goddammit, so let's use the fuck out of it! To hell with the future, I want cheap gas NOW!!

Besides global warming is just a hoax to further socialism.

But the "Global War on Terror" is real, and is totally not an attempt to frighten the populace into submitting to martial law. Right.

And I personally don't care if people are gay, if they want to be gay so be it. But I don't think they should be allowed to be married when marriage is defined as between a man and a woman.

Defined by whom?

I was quoting what someone else was saying moron.

OK MORAN! GO USA!

By insulting our president, even if he doesn't like him or respect, he should still call our president President Bush, not "George Bush".

Right, he's totally earned MY respect in the last eight years. I forgot that we can't call people by their given names anymore.

By refusing to wear the flag pin lapel,

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

by changing the presidential seal to "yes we can"

Because that's exactly what he was doing--he's going to officially change the state seal. That's COMPLETELY what's going on. And McCain wants to personally stay in Iraq for the next 100 years--I believe that too!

by being friends with terrorists,

See Louis' comment about the Saudis. Oh, and who are these "terrorists" that Obama's friends with, again?

and racist preachers and pastors,

I could dig up quite a few acquaintances of John McCain who are on par (if not worse) than ONE GUY who Obama knows.

and by having friends who built properties for poor families who Obama is supposed to care about.

Yes, we all know about the Rezko thing. Let me know when McCain figures out how many houses he owns, okay?

thats how he is saying "America Sucks".

Keep sipping on that Kool-Aid. Someday it'll taste good.

[Soul Survivor]

Breaking NEWS.... PALIN"S Daughter is KNOCKED UP..

[Fit of Rage]

Note: Her 17 year-old unmarried teenage daughter, who will be keeping the child and marrying whoever the father is. Yay for family values and reducing teen pregnancy.

[kthx]

Think thats big, Obama wasn't born in America, he isn't even a possible candidate LOLOLOLOLOLOL gg

[Fit of Rage]

Yes, because Hawaiians aren't Americans.

[genocidal]

Props to Conc for having the patience to read through wark's mire.

[Money]

Wow wark are you so far up Mccains ass that you cant see this country needs HUGE change in the way its run, and that this OLD MAN is not the man for the job.

[Jerome Scuggs]

unless palin herself got knocked up, i don't see how that could be related to how good of a politician you are

[DoTheFandango]

unless palin herself got knocked up, i don't see how that could be related to how good of a politician you are

when you are a staunch "abstinence only" sex ed. supporter with strong ties to the religious right and the "moral majority", it kinda is a spit in the face when your highly religious 17-year-old has premarital sex and gets impregnated. granted she's not getting an abortion, but practicing what you preach is kinda big. It'd be like if those who voted against gay marriage were fondling men themselves.

oh wait.

[H.M.S. Stargazer]

unless palin herself got knocked up, i don't see how that could be related to how good of a politician you are

Bad parenting, bad politics?

[Summa]

404, i was just laughing @ the fact that you made a sarcastic comment that wark actually wholeheartedly agreed with, no offense intended towards you

Concrete School Yard is in the mother fucking house. he kinda stole all my thunder.

wark, have you ever heard of peak oil? you should familiarize yourself with the concept. and since when has obama spewed save the planet bs? the democratic party may be guilty of it, but obama has always promoted alternative energy to create something that we actually export other than our jobs and to ween us off foreign oil. you shouldn't assume.

while palin's pregnant daughter shouldn't be a big deal it will be made into one, they contort it into "oh what kind of woman mothers a daughter who has such bad morals as to get pregnant at age 17 w/o being married?" just like some things about obama (his "pastor" and the flag pin) were non factors made into a big deal.

now for all you republicans i just want to laugh. here's why, regardless of if obama wins the election, mccain will not accomplish anything in his first term as president. the democrats will take over congress and prevent anything from getting passed.

and wark, there are two ways to pay for your drilling costs that will be astronomical if mccain wants it up in the next 5-10 years. choice #1: government funding; issue: between his 50-100 year permanent basis in iraq and his crash course drilling im wondering where his "tax cuts" will come from, say hello to 4 more years of cut taxes and increase spending and go ahead and add on to that largest debt per capita in the nation's history. choice #2: contract out to private companies; issue: they can sell to whoever they want and you bet its not all comin our way. increase the gap between the rich and the poor even more, say bye bye to the middle class, and give oil tycoons an even firmer grip on the world economy.

i think conc covered the rest of my rebuttal to your ranting w/o any factual basis fairly well.

[Jerome Scuggs]

oil companies don't have a very big grip at all.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/19/bu...l?pagewanted=1

The reality, experts say, is that the oil giants that once dominated the global market have lost much of their influence — and with it, their ability to increase supplies.

"whoops!"

Today’s 10 largest holders of petroleum reserves are state-owned companies, like Russia’s Gazprom and Iran’s national oil company.

those damn free-market oil tycoons.

[kthx]

404, i was just laughing @ the fact that you made a sarcastic comment that wark actually wholeheartedly agreed with, no offense intended towards you
wark, have you ever heard of peak oil? you should familiarize yourself with the concept. and since when has obama spewed save the planet bs? the democratic party may be guilty of it, but obama has always promoted alternative energy to create something that we actually export other than our jobs and to ween us off foreign oil. you shouldn't assume.
and wark, there are two ways to pay for your drilling costs that will beastronomical if mccain wants it up in the next 5-10 years. choice#1:government funding; issue: between his 50-100 year permanent basis in iraq and his crash course drilling im wondering where his "tax cuts" will come from, say hello to 4 more years of cut taxes and increase spending and go ahead and add on to that largest debt per capita in the nation's history. choice #2: contract out to private companies; issue: they can sell to whoever they want and you bet its not all comin our way. increase the gap between the rich and the poor even more, say bye bye to the middle class, and give oil tycoons an even firmer grip on the world economy.
i think conc covered the rest of my rebuttal to your ranting w/o any factual basis fairly well.

First off, if 404 was being sarcastic on an issue when were on opposite sides of the issue, then of course I will agree with his sarcastic comment. Idiot. On top of what Jerome already said, I would like to point out the rest of the issue. McCain wants to build Nuclear plants, which will provide more than enough energy, even enough to export to other countries. Obama is against nuclear energy for whatever reason. Tell me, what green jobs will obama create, how will he cope with the fact that tons of Americans in the oil sector will be losing their jobs if we don't get more oil. How will he cope with gas prices rising astronomically if people are already willing to rebel and do something about it when they hit 4 dollars?

---------------------

Jesus, I'm betting you're one of those people who think that wearing a flag pin dictates whether or not you're a "true patriot." What a bunch of complete bullshit. A nation of whiners? Is this the Ann Coulter Show all of a sudden? I'm sorry you and your hyper-Christian buddies can't praise Jesus in a PUBLIC school for Western expansion anymore. I really feel for you. I have yet to hear anything about how this is "anti-American" at all. This whole "blah blah is ANTI-AMERICAN! CRUCIFY THEM!" is fucking childish and fails to actually identify, much less solve any problems.

I think that any American who fails to show proper respect to his/her country shouldn't be trying to run for president, yes it is a very big deal. Especially people who have died or have had relatives who have died while defending what the flag stands for. It isn't "fucking childish" its what America is, and what we fight for.

How am I making an "ignorant guess" when everything I said was true? How is that ignorant at all? The fact is that you're talking out of your ass on subjects that you have little-to-no actual experience with at all. That is FACT, by your OWN ADMISSION.

On the other hand, YOUR guess WAS completely wrong--I don't have more than 100k in a bank, so no, I don't (and haven't) withdrawn my money from any bank. I agree that that's silly. So do most of the people that you'd be so quick to identify as "anti-American."

You got one of the guesses you made about me right, and it isn't hard to guess that at 23 I don't have a house yet. My guess was merely to prove a point that ignorant guess work doesn't really have any point in an educated conversation.

"60-100 years of oil" assumes a nearly flat growth rate in global energy usage, which is all but a fairy tale. Eastern countries are ramping up their own industrial revolutions, and their demand for energy will most likely outstrip even the US in a short period. And all that page that you linked to said was that yes, there's a problem and we need to solve it. And it was published before the true "gas crunch" of the last year even happened.

Currently a lot of countries currently subsidize their oil, after a while the government will stop doing it, and naturally people will start finding ways to conserve oil. But the backside of your argument for every country that begins to modernize and need more oil, we find more oil deposits. I doubt we even know about 2/3's of the oil on this planet.

You think the price drop was directly linked to Bush lifting the executive drilling ban? How? The Congressional ban is still in effect--Bush's move essentially did absolutely bubkus to the price of oil. Yes, most of the cost of oil is from speculation, you're right about that. And yes, it may very well take a long time to completely roll out a replacement for our oil dependence, but why wouldn't we start now? We already missed the boat years ago, and we're paying the price RIGHT NOW. If we sit back for another few years and say "oh well, shit sux right now, but we'll figure it out in the future--in the meantime, let's not curb our usage at all", we'll be having this same discussion in the future. Drilling for oil now isn't going to change that fact. Ideally, we should almost push for a Manhattan-Project-style push for renewable energy, but that won't happen because there are people like you who want to take a "wait and see" attitude on the subject.

The price in oil was directly related to President Bush's removal of the executive drilling order. Between that and the growing push by America led by Newt Gingrich's drill here drill now petition. Speculators probably thought that there would be an abundance of oil soon, with America pushing congress towards drilling, and the executive side of things taken care of. And I don't think you read my post.. I said I supported finding alternative means for meeting our energy goals in America, but at the same time we need to go ahead and drill for the energy we have, and know how to create. I guess you can just ignore your T. Boone quote if you want here.

No one's saying wind is the be-all-end-all. No one technology is going to solve the problem. What I'm saying is that oil isn't keystone either. And we don't have to go ripping up natural habitats to harness some wind or solar energy.

Not to mention that you're using examples of current technology. Yes, there's currently no ultra-efficient means of storing or transporting energy captured by wind technology. But that's today--if we put some actual thought into solving those problems, who knows what's possible?

it's funny you say that.. because to produce the power of one nuclear plant, you would need 100x the land worth of solar panels and or wind mills. I would rather see one nuclear plant than 50000 windmills and 50000 solar panels spread across the landscape. And sure, like I have been saying lets go ahead and think about some new ways to solve the problem of windmills being nearly useless at this point and time, but lets go ahead and drill for oil and build nuclear plants at the same time.

Right, he knows that the money's about to dry up with petroleum. I'm not saying he's a philanthropist, I'm saying he's a realist who sees the where things are going. Right, let's just go into some of the few natural reserves we have left on the planet and fuck whatever's in our way, right? Who the fuck was ever helped by nature, right? This planet is OURS, goddammit, so let's use the fuck out of it! To hell with the future, I want cheap gas NOW!!

Money isn't about to dry up with petroleum and he knows it, especially not in his lifetime. And yes, the planet is ours, so lets the fuck out of it. Because.. you know countries like China and Russia sure the fuck don't care, and if anyone is going to be using the fuck out of this planet I would much prefer it to be the United States. Maybe you can go talk China and Russia into thinking about the future, and how they are using up the planet. See what they say.

But the "Global War on Terror" is real, and is totally not an attempt to frighten the populace into submitting to martial law. Right.

The same way Obama tells us how terrible our country is, isn't an attempt to make people repeat his bumper sticker slogans of change and hope. Right.

No need to quote the rest, I will just go down the list.

The Bible, which the United States was based on, look at a dollar.
Don't get it.
Hes still the president, he said President Clinton, but not President Bush.
The president should love America, and if you are right he wouldn't have caved into pressure and started wearing it after it was brought up as a problem.
It's still stupid
Bill Ayres
How can it be worse than someone who says Not god bless America, god damn America, and the US of KKK A.
McCain didn't answer that question straight out, because most of them are his wife's houses. Several of which are being used by family members to stay in. How many houses do the Kennedy's have, how about John Kerry. It's ignorant to make that some kind of political issue.
I think my side of the party uses the drinking the kool-aid bit, get your own line.

Besides all this, Genocidal you are worthless, I shut you up like three threads ago and now the only thing you can do with your broken ego is to be a cheer leader for people who are more intelligent than you, and can actually make decent points even if I disagree with them.

[Fit of Rage]

Currently a lot of countries currently subsidize their oil, after a while the government will stop doing it, and naturally people will start finding ways to conserve oil. But the backside of your argument for every country that begins to modernize and need more oil, we find more oil deposits. I doubt we even know about 2/3's of the oil on this planet.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Please, keep the funnies coming. At the rate the world consumes right now, oil will be all but gone in 100 years.