John McCain vs Barack Obama Mega-Politic-Thread of super fun awesomeness.

[Summa]

yet again since when did obama make his primary reason for alternative energy "to save this fragile planet". yes the democratic party probably would favor that statement, but from what i've heard from the man its been about no longer being entrenched in foreign oil and to create a product that we can export and make money off of, while simultaneously creating american jobs. not "save the planet from global warming". the entire democratic party isnt al gore.

[Kolar]

If you used a resource that you already have, then tacked on a process that makes said resource more expensive to exploit (for whatever reason) then no it doesn't mean more energy, it means the consumer would pay more for the product. In a free market which ever is cheaper is used, should be used. Clean coal has also been criticized over environmental concerns.

[kthx]

What other reason would he have to create a million green jobs in the next 10 years? Why else would he support not drilling for oil when people were paying 4 dollars for gas, but instead said that drilling for oil was just a scam. He has ran a very earth friendly campaign because Obama is the democratic party.. down to a T, what the democratic party stands for Obama stands for, what the democratic party tells Obama to say he says. Why do you think that even he himself put a questioning tone on the "inflate your tires and get tune ups" speech but still went on with it. If the democratic party didn't believe in the whole Al Gore global warming save the planet theme.. why would they let him speak at the convention other than because a bunch of college kids subjected to his terrible rantings gained him some sort of global warming following that the democrats hope to gain a few extra votes off of.

So when you say.. Al Gore isn't Obama.. yes he is to a certain degree.

And thats the whole point.. In the borders of America, and the water we control as a nation... we have more oil untapped, than OPEC does as a whole. McCain isn't suggesting that.. we do what President Bush did and go beg for more oil.. or do what the democrats did and threaten to sue OPEC for not producing enough oil. But to drill for our own oil, in our own country, and create jobs and fix the economy while doing so. Obama is right about the fact that we need to start looking into the future when it comes to energy solutions in America.. but why not take whats rightfully ours, suck it out of the ground, refine it, and use it in the mean time?

[kthx]

If you used a resource that you already have, then tacked on a process that makes said resource more expensive to exploit (for whatever reason) then no it doesn't mean more energy, it means the consumer would pay more for the product. In a free market which ever is cheaper is used, should be used. Clean coal has also been criticized over environmental concerns.

Kolar.. I understand what your saying.. but I don't think you fully grasp the situation here. If 50 coal power plants, and 50 clean coal power plants were offered up to the United States right now to help us produce enough energy to run America without using oil. The enviromental guys would freak out, saying that the coal plants would ruin the enviroment and that we would all die etc etc etc. So in the end, since those lunatics have such a great power over our government we would maybe be able to build lets say 10 of them, with a lot of mumbling and grumbling. Now lets use the other example.. 50 clean coal power plants were offered up.. now they still caused some pollution but not nearly as many as the old coal power plants.. so they make a compromise to say.. allow 20 of these new plants.

I know thats kind of a stupid argument but it would really happen if not quite in that way. However the end result is the same, we have to deal now with government regulations and fringe enviromorons before we do anything, and by building the plants more "green" we would be allowed to build more of the plants, therefore creating more energy, therefore reducing the cost of said energy.

[Kolar]

What other reason would he have to create a million green jobs in the next 10 years? Why else would he support not drilling for oil when people were paying 4 dollars for gas, but instead said that drilling for oil was just a scam.

New drilling in ANWR and the eastern gulf regions according to an analysis by the Department of Energy says any production from those regions wouldn't hit the market until 2017 and not have any effect on crude prices until after 2030. Obama has called for limited new exploration coupled with expanding renewable resources and R&D. I also believe Obama is in a better position to work with Canada and Norway in securing oil resources and territory in the Canadian Arctic.

So when you say.. Al Gore isn't Obama.. yes he is to a certain degree.

So by that logic.. oh nevermind.

and create jobs and fix the economy while doing so.

Isn't the US unemployment rate somewhere between 5-6%? And isn't the economic slowdown/recession just a liberal lie fed to us by the media?

I know thats kind of a stupid argument

quoted for truth.

[kthx]

New drilling in ANWR and the eastern gulf regions according to an analysis by the Department of Energy says any production from those regions wouldn't hit the market until 2017 and not have any effect on crude prices until after 2030. Obama has called for limited new exploration coupled with expanding renewable resources and R&D. I also believe Obama is in a better position to work with Canada and Norway in securing oil resources and territory in the Canadian Arctic.

If we set a deadline to the oil companies that said.. look by 2012, we want an oil pipeline delivering the U.S. one million barrels of oil a day, from ANWR, and we want by 2012 half a million barrels of oil produced in the OCS, then it would be done. Because the largest motivation to companies like Exxon and Shell is making money.. and spending all of the money they have to find the oil, and not being allowed to pump it is wasting them money. The only reason it will take till 2017 is because that cunt Pelosi won't even allow an up and down vote on it. Now how can Obama put a time frame, which he has of coming up with the next big idea to fuel American vehicles? The last big success was ethanol, and we know what a terrible idea it is to turn food into gas. We need the oil production in America while we research and develop new ideas. And why the fuck does it matter if we work with Canada and Norway... we don't want to buy shit loads of oil anymore, we want to drill our own oil so we don't have to pay shit for it and can start working down the national debt which hurts the dollar on the world market.


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He is, Obama is just an empty suit, try doing some searches of video of him speaking when he doesn't have a speech written for him. Unless someone else writes down his ideas for him he doesn't know what to say, because he doesn't know what he really wants himself, he just is the figurehead for the democratic party. I think the debate at saddleback pretty much proved this.

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It is somewhere between 3-4 percent and yes and no, we aren't having the best economic year, but it is NOWHERE near as bad as the mainstream media makes it out to be. Our GDP was still up 3%, our markets never flat lined, and now that oil is almost back down to 100 dollars a barrel the economy is once again flourishing, with the dollar making a strong return. The fact that we place our countries economy on middle eastern countries, even furthers my point about domestic drilling. Speculators wouldn't feel so ancy about oil prices if we had our own supply and didn't have to deal with radical countries to get it.

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I just meant I don't have the patience to sit there and look at the pollution vs cost data to make an air tight argument. The fact remains that I am still right.

[Epinephrine]

No, his target for the bombs that his group were making WAS a military training base (as well as Columbia University, whom he thought was proliferating the idea of active engagement). The base was one of the ones that soldiers would funnel through before heading to Vietnam. So technically, yes, his intention was to hurt the war (not necessarily to boost his own image), however misguided it was.

Not to mention the fact that he's talking about the Bill Ayers of today, as opposed to the 1972 Bill Ayers. Again, context has something to do with it. Maybe I'm crazy.

Oh I see, I skimmed over your post and thought he was going to bomb Greenwich Village in NYC.

[Kolar]

That is if drilling started tomorrow Wark. It's important because Russia is staking its claim to the Arctic region for resource development. And just because a US company drills and extracts it doesn't means it's only for Americans. Not unless you want to nationalize your energy sector and decide to subsidize gas for consumers. Using clean coal will still raise the price of energy to 10-15 cents per Kwh from 5-8 cents for energy derived from nuclear, gas, coal and renewables. You can't offset the rise in price from a clean coal plant by that of a regular coal burning plant, coal is a finite resource and the cost of production has a direct and proportional relationship with the end consumer cost, unless you again want to subsidize it.

[Epinephrine]

Obamas WONT work, because you can't tax your way out of a recession. Raising taxes, no matter which group you tax won't help. And McCain will have tons of money to build the coal and nuclear plants, because he will let us drill for oil, and refine our own oil, which will create REAL jobs, which will create MORE taxes not higher taxes. After he brings in the same amount of money as Obama does through "raising taxes on those damned rich people who made money in America and won't share it with us sad face" then he will build coal and nuclear plants which will make America energy independent so we won't have to burn gas for anything but cars, which we can slowly start gearing to be ran off natural gas and eventually something else. But we will be a rich country, overflowing in cheap, abundant energy which we can then sell to other countries.

In case you were not aware, in his speech, Obama was FOR nuclear energy and 'clean' coal as well.

In fact the entire 'clean coal' thing is a total sham. It has NEVER been proven to work, and in the way it is conceived (pumping carbon dioxide into empty oil fields) it would take more pipes to actually get rid of all the CO2 then it takes the entire globe to pump oil. Basically it's totally not feasible and like the entire corn for ethanol debacle it will only serve special interests.

Meanwhile global warming IS real. I'm not sure why you don't think it's not happening, but I will bet $100 that you do not base your opinion on scientific facts, but just what 'you think', which is... wrong.


Finally, the amount of recoverable oil in Alaska and in offshore drilling is inconsequential to the entire oil needs of the USA. It may have a VERY minor impact on overall global oil prices, and produce limited jobs at best, but it is not a sustainable practice (oil is a limited resource, but designing ways to produce clean energy is definitely not) in the long term, and regardless won't even make ANY difference for at least a decade because that's how long it would take to get things running.

If only small gains in efficiency and clean energy could be made starting now, the entire benefit of more drilling would be completely offset in the time it would take for it to come online, while all the negatives of ruining natural habitats, and extra pollution from drilling would not be seen.

[Fit of Rage]

I return to forum land and find Kolar and Epinephrine have said pretty much exactly what I wanted to say. Thanks for stealing my thunder, dudes.

[Summa]

What other reason would he have to create a million green jobs in the next 10 years?

5 million i believe he stated and thats simple, to put a large workforce into developing alternative energy so that we can make it our chief export instead of our jobs

Obama is right about the fact that we need to start looking into the future when it comes to energy solutions in America.. but why not take whats rightfully ours, suck it out of the ground, refine it, and use it in the mean time?

because he doesn't see the sense in pumping a large amount of money into a temporary solution (peak oil is on the horizon if not here) when you could pump that money into a permanent solution that gets us off relying on foreign petroleum.

[destroy]

Obama = Worst Thing for America

First of all, looking at the title for this thread, does anyone watch South Park?:

PRESIDENT GIANT DOUCHE OR PRESIDENT TURD SANDWICH?

As much as everybody in this thread seems to be either in love with Obama or McCain, we must admit that the best man for the job is Mr. Warren Buffett and he is not going to be on the ballot.

Now, secondly, I am a Canadian citizen. Even though I was born in Chile and grew up there, I came to Canada as a teenager and now love this country after a lot of work to do so. However, as much as I like Canada, I hate how liberal and socialist it is and it really goes to show me what would the USA be like under the influence of a HUGE government swept by leftists.

Thirdly, I am a big fan of our current dominant world empire the United States of America. I truly believe we as people have reached new heights because of America's ideals, the American ingenuity (Bill Gates, Wright Brothers, George Lucas, Ben Franklin anyone?? etc) and how it was founded, with a constitution so brilliantly written it sincerely made me wish I was American after I read it.

Unline our Canadian friends, America is leader of the free markets, the world's sword when it comes down to fighting blatant evil (not bullshit like Iraq or Saddam Hussein or Iran, but what about WW2 and Hitler? Or Somalia?), and the brightest beacon for any Conservative struggling in a world that seems to be steering to the left very dramatically (basically, any non-liberal douchebag, not like any of the Pallies members, obama-loving hippies LOL).

Economically, the USA still remains the strongest economy in the planet, growing at a healthy 3% annually. What you hear daily in the news is somewhat factual but also has its own degree of exaggeration. I can honestly say that it saddens me how pesimistic all news media outlets portray the current situation in the United States. Do you want to know the meaning of the word Inflation? Go live in Zimbabwe.

Now, here's my beef against Obama, which isn't much of an argument anyway since I'm typing to an internet-forum-audience and I don't really care about responses, just putting my word out. The guy all he ever did right was to call out the Iraq blunder before anybody else. Since he did that in 2003, he has gottan incredibly possitive media coverage (60 Minutes interview where they nearly praised him, DNC Speech, etc) and he has used that up-to-date for his advantage, the media elites like him because he is a good-looking, smart African American and he makes them money with coverage on him. If you can't see this point then you might as well stop reading right here. He knew that if he kept a voting record without making career-defining voting decisions, he would have an outstanding chance of winning a future presidency, and no one could hold him accountable for flip-flopping on anything later. This guy is not stupid but he's a lawyer, yet he has already shown me his biggest flaw, other than his non-existant executive experience - his ego (an egomaniac like me can EASILY recognize this character trait). Everything else about this guy is filler and has been borrowed from the roots of the Democratic party and their uniform partisan ideas (save the earth, no drilling, bigger government, save you from this, pay for you on this, wipe your ass here, etc).

McCain, on the other hand, is gutsy, I like that. As a business owner myself I can relate to him, taking a huge risk that can potentially pay off with dividends not only for him, but for the Republican party as a whole. He picked an unknown woman to be his VP, at this stage being very late to introduce her to the national stage, and this strategy is McCain's way of saying "I'm all in, boys." We all know the Maverick, how Gramps has screwed up here and there, and we have called out his flip flops, but I can tell you that he is looking more like a president than Obama. On the Russian & Georgia muscle-flex, he sent a strong message, even better than Bushs! On Iraq he had the right call with the surge. He is playing the political game by flip flopping (and so are the Dems) on off-shore drilling because Americans want drilling. Cutting taxes is the right move for the economy, it will put more money in peoples pockets, and if they are rich people even better. They create jobs and expand the market, expand their business, they then make more money and are taxed more! bingo!. Why give the people in welfare or low-class individual tax cuts... Why not just give them another $500 check...

The last thing the ENTIRE world needs is America going the European Socialist leftist way, government saving all and everything because people can't save themselves. That's the problem right there. If you think that by voting Obama he will save you from the slumping economy, from the Iraq war, from terrorism, from a very likely Health Care bust, from higher taxes., then you are so wrong!! The only person that can save your country, is YOU, by voting for the Conservative candidate, or Bob Barr even, which is a great choice for anybody that is looking for real solutions. The United States of America has its own way and it is the motherfucking American way!


PS: Early when I first saw Obama in 60 minutes in 2003 I said to myself: this guy will be President of the USA one day for sure, very eloquent and smart. Not in 2008. I am telling you he is way too leftist and too much of a globalist for the US. In the event of showing balls vs Russia or China or Iran, he will back down, unlike Kennedy in the Cuban Missile Crisis.

PPS: I am a bigger fan of Ron Paul, the guy reminds me of a modern Thomas Jefferson or John Adams or Abraham Lincoln. I still think he should make a run as an independent or throw his support behind McCain.

2 cents from your favorite 145 IQ, $80,000 a year, 23 y-o, pot smoking , 2008 brand new ride Canadian Conservative. We are not all liberal hippies like Cops.
There is Liberal stoners and Conservative stoners.

[Scoop]

First of all, looking at the title for this thread, does anyone watch South Park?:

PRESIDENT GIANT DOUCHE OR PRESIDENT TURD SANDWICH?

As much as everybody in this thread seems to be either in love with Obama or McCain, we must admit that the best man for the job is Mr. Warren Buffett and he is not going to be on the ballot.

Now, secondly, I am a Canadian citizen. Even though I was born in Chile and grew up there, I came to Canada as a teenager and now love this country after a lot of work to do so. However, as much as I like Canada, I hate how liberal and socialist it is and it really goes to show me what would the USA be like under the influence of a HUGE government swept by leftists.

Thirdly, I am a big fan of our current dominant world empire the United States of America. I truly believe we as people have reached new heights because of America's ideals, the American ingenuity (Bill Gates, Wright Brothers, George Lucas, Ben Franklin anyone?? etc) and how it was founded, with a constitution so brilliantly written it sincerely made me wish I was American after I read it.

Unline our Canadian friends, America is leader of the free markets, the world's sword when it comes down to fighting blatant evil (not bullshit like Iraq or Saddam Hussein or Iran, but what about WW2 and Hitler? Or Somalia?), and the brightest beacon for any Conservative struggling in a world that seems to be steering to the left very dramatically (basically, any non-liberal douchebag, not like any of the Pallies members, obama-loving hippies LOL).

Economically, the USA still remains the strongest economy in the planet, growing at a healthy 3% annually. What you hear daily in the news is somewhat factual but also has its own degree of exaggeration. I can honestly say that it saddens me how pesimistic all news media outlets portray the current situation in the United States. Do you want to know the meaning of the word Inflation? Go live in Zimbabwe.

Now, here's my beef against Obama, which isn't much of an argument anyway since I'm typing to an internet-forum-audience and I don't really care about responses, just putting my word out. The guy all he ever did right was to call out the Iraq blunder before anybody else. Since he did that in 2003, he has gottan incredibly possitive media coverage (60 Minutes interview where they nearly praised him, DNC Speech, etc) and he has used that up-to-date for his advantage, the media elites like him because he is a good-looking, smart African American and he makes them money with coverage on him. If you can't see this point then you might as well stop reading right here. He knew that if he kept a voting record without making career-defining voting decisions, he would have an outstanding chance of winning a future presidency, and no one could hold him accountable for flip-flopping on anything later. This guy is not stupid but he's a lawyer, yet he has already shown me his biggest flaw, other than his non-existant executive experience - his ego (an egomaniac like me can EASILY recognize this character trait). Everything else about this guy is filler and has been borrowed from the roots of the Democratic party and their uniform partisan ideas (save the earth, no drilling, bigger government, save you from this, pay for you on this, wipe your ass here, etc).

McCain, on the other hand, is gutsy, I like that. As a business owner myself I can relate to him, taking a huge risk that can potentially pay off with dividends not only for him, but for the Republican party as a whole. He picked an unknown woman to be his VP, at this stage being very late to introduce her to the national stage, and this strategy is McCain's way of saying "I'm all in, boys." We all know the Maverick, how Gramps has screwed up here and there, and we have called out his flip flops, but I can tell you that he is looking more like a president than Obama. On the Russian & Georgia muscle-flex, he sent a strong message, even better than Bushs! On Iraq he had the right call with the surge. He is playing the political game by flip flopping (and so are the Dems) on off-shore drilling because Americans want drilling. Cutting taxes is the right move for the economy, it will put more money in peoples pockets, and if they are rich people even better. They create jobs and expand the market, expand their business, they then make more money and are taxed more! bingo!. Why give the people in welfare or low-class individual tax cuts... Why not just give them another $500 check...

The last thing the ENTIRE world needs is America going the European Socialist leftist way, government saving all and everything because people can't save themselves. That's the problem right there. If you think that by voting Obama he will save you from the slumping economy, from the Iraq war, from terrorism, from a very likely Health Care bust, from higher taxes., then you are so wrong!! The only person that can save your country, is YOU, by voting for the Conservative candidate, or Bob Barr even, which is a great choice for anybody that is looking for real solutions. The United States of America has its own way and it is the motherfucking American way!


PS: Early when I first saw Obama in 60 minutes in 2003 I said to myself: this guy will be President of the USA one day for sure, very eloquent and smart. Not in 2008. I am telling you he is way too leftist and too much of a globalist for the US. In the event of showing balls vs Russia or China or Iran, he will back down, unlike Kennedy in the Cuban Missile Crisis.

PPS: I am a bigger fan of Ron Paul, the guy reminds me of a modern Thomas Jefferson or John Adams or Abraham Lincoln. I still think he should make a run as an independent or throw his support behind McCain.

2 cents from your favorite 145 IQ, $80,000 a year, 23 y-o, pot smoking , 2008 brand new ride Canadian Conservative. We are not all liberal hippies like Cops.
There is Liberal stoners and Conservative stoners.

Thank god for you, destroy.

[kthx]

Destroy, I gained a little respect for Canada today.

And epinephrine I will scientifically prove, without a doubt the non existence of global warming later. When I get back from work.

But ill give you a tease so you know what to expect.

1. Global COOLING happens when volcanos spew tons of co2 into the air.

2. An ancient 5000 year old civilization found in the Sahara shows bones of animals that don't belong in the desert.. in fact they belong in a lush tropical wetland.... That means that wetland was changed.. to a desert over the last 5000 years.. long before man made global warming could have even been possible.. The world changes when it wants, and for humans to think that we have the power to do anything to it is ridiculous.

3. Global Warming is just a way to promote socialism through larger governments.

[Izor]

Global warming cannot be scientifically 'proven' because the earths climate does change over time.