WTF Japan? Epic thread of problems

[Pandagirl!]

If you're #25 in your class, make a 1400, and only have a 3.8 GPA, then you get a lot less (my roommate's situation). Then again, we both got the same private scholarships, so we were good. He also joined ROTC for a year and got money for that.

Yea, I would agree that class rank matters for scholarships more than actual admission. At Ohio State, to compete for the full scholarships you need a 32 ACT and to be in the top 10% of your class - and you have to have both. Then you have to write two killer essays (which is where I failed).

It only matters if you want to get a bachelors at an IVY league school which is worthless anyway, and costs far more than getting one at a state school. Graduate programs are really the only things that matter anyway. If you are ONLY going for a bachelors, a really expensive school is stupid to even consider. Jobs don't give a shit where you go with only a 2-4 year degree, its all about experience in the workforce.

I disagree about it not mattering where you get your bachelor's degree if you're not going to grad school. Obviously experience matters, but in the initial job pool after you graduate, there isn't much to distinguish individuals from each other, except for the school that they went to. If the only distinction you'll have from someone else is the school you got your degree from, obviously you'll want to have your degree from a school of higher caliber. That doesn't necessarily mean a more expensive school, but just a school with a better reputation in the academic world.

For example, my major (Actuarial Science) is only offered in a handful of schools around the country. To be an actuary all you need is a bachelor's degree. However, it's a merit-based system, because after you graduate and find a job, there are still tests you take to further your career. Each test you pass translates into a pay raise and a promotion. In my opinion, where you get your bachelor's from would actually matter in my field. An employer needs to be able to see that a candidate went to a reputable school and earned good grades, to see that they will be a hard-worker who can be counted on to pass the tests. When I was searching for colleges, I narrowed it down to three schools, two of which were pretty good schools (Purdue and Ohio State) and one which is known as a party school (Ohio University). Even though I full tuition and full room and board at Ohio Uni, I decided to go to a school where I got very little in scholarships simply because the program is better, and that's what matters.

I mean sure, if you're going to grad school, the place where you got your bachelor's doesn't matter as much. But if you're getting your bachelor's and then enter the workforce, I'd imagine that having your degree from a higher caliber school could only be an asset for you.

[Galleleo]

Exalt is on a roll, first he tries to pretend he dates hot women, and now he is pretending he is actually smart!

[Izor]

Exalt is right about it not mattering where you have your degree from unless its an ivy leagues school, but hes also coming from the perspective of someone who was in the navy for a couple years. He already has that extra something to distinguish him from the rest of the pack. I get into this argument at work sometimes with different people, and I always tell them if I learned calculus I learned calculus be it at Harvard or at Pikes Peak Community College. That argument works very well for most things, but there are still those top 5-10% that get into a school like MIT for IT work. No one will logically argue that, because its so competitive just to get into those schools and MIT has a tradition of having a superior program. If you're going to a Big 10, Big East, ACC, PAC 10, SEC school though, youre not going to get anything much better than any of the other schools. Employers know this. Thats why they do interviews. And its pretty unlikely that someone that graduated from an ivy league school would be after the same entry level job as you seeing as how they are already the 'elite' and they can/will start off a bit higher. Epi - I dont know about how doctors get paid up there if its all the same in a universal healthcare system but I'm sure you even know about some American schools that are the top tier for their medical programs and how a doctor graduating from that would make more starting than someone graduating from an average school.

Yes, if you read my post, I said I took the SATs. Obviously there's rankings, but there isn't the same pressures from parents to succeed. There just isn't, and there's no way you will ever understand unless you're one of the top 5% in America whose parents pushed you really, really hard. Considering you ended up in the military, I highly doubt that.

Again you know nothing about me. I scored a 1360 on my SAT, and while it may or may not have been top 5%, I'd venture to say it was top 10% easily. Me being in the military with a guaranteed job in the same career field I plan on working in for my entire life is no coincidence. By analyzing how things are run here and how things get done I've learned quite a bit about management in this career field and given some time I will be ready for a management spot in this career should I choose to pursue a managerial role. Also, I have a deployment under my belt and a world of experience that your average college student simply wont have. My reason for joining was mostly the fact that I hate classroom instruction, and the fact that I love America and see it as my duty to serve for some years before moving on in life.

If you actually read LB's article it said the kid in the kitchen was bullied for years. SOURCE: LB's article

Well this still does nothing to back up your perception that the pressures from his parents to succeed forced him to do it. It just proves that people in Japan can be bullies also. I still dont think they would have the same amount of cliques that we have and therefore they would have less bullying.

I've stated numerous times that I'm not Japanese, and thus I'm inferencing from my own knowledge. I would say that I know more about that country than most people here aside from Displaced or Hakaku. Still as I keep saying in my posts, it's just my own ideas. Perhaps you should also stop posting in every thread that you encounter that isn't about your specific part of America or the American military and stop pretending that you know anything either?

As I've stated numerous times in this or other threads, my purpose for posting is not to teach anyone about what the problem is in these cultures or to prove the existance of a god in the other thread, but to let people know that it is ridiculous to act as though they know anything about these cultures. The economy in Japan being in a recession could also just as easily explain the high suicide rate and the pressure of society to succeed could be driving more people to it than it is here, and I'm reasonable enough to believe that. But to start making up stuff thats not based on fact (long work hours) makes you look stupid. I'm sure the numbers will back me up on this also when the effects of the depression America is going into starts being felt even worse.

Don't you see the inherent contradiction in your head? People work too much, that's why they are send home early! If they didn't work that hard, why would they have to be sent home early?

I dont think that when I'm in colorado that I'm overburdened with work, but still every so often we'll get early releases on Fridays or family days as a morale boost. Thats just good management because those things help productivity.

Yes you have to act in certain ways that the military has laid out. If your superiors start breaking those rules (i.e. hazing you) that could be grounds for punishment of senior staff. Regardless, the military is nothing like the rest of the world, which is why so few people actually join the military because it sort of sucks.

The military really is not that much different than the rest of the world. You have no supporting argument for how it is considerably different than the working world, so I'll wait for one before responding to it. Again, you're on the outside looking in here.

[Cops]

That's hella presumptuous to assume that Izor ended up in the military because he fucked up in school.

When's Japan going to open its doors to the rest of the world? Canada had to, Japan probably doesn't want to but they're going to have to. Maybe there should be some incentives for people who are retired in Japan to leave, which would lower the countries population and allow room for highly trained professionals to join their workforce.

[Cops]

unless you're rich, high school GPA's matter a lot.

Agreed, Universities and Colleges don't offer you crap to go to school here. Any talented athlete usually ends up in the States. If it wasn't for my scholarship I couldn't afford to go to school. Only the top student from each High School got a scholarship, so if wasn't for my grades I'd be broke.

[Liquid Blue]

Same here Cops, my college tuition was ridiculously expensive and if I didn't get my scholarship I wouldn't have been able to afford to go. Problem is the cost of college tuition's just keep going up and up as well.

[Epinephrine]

That's hella presumptuous to assume that Izor ended up in the military because he fucked up in school.

Who said that?

I said that his parents probably didn't push him super, super hard academically because he ended up in the military and I've never heard of him going to say West Point or wherever elite military people go to. I don't care how much he pushed himself, that's something different altogether. Unless you've been in an environment where your parents push you to no end to achieve, then you have no idea what it is like to not make those expectations and the dejection that comes with that. I'm assuming that the top 5% of American parents probably push their kids that hard, but in Asian countries it's more like top 50%.

[DankNuggets]

Who said that?

I said that his parents probably didn't push him super, super hard academically because he ended up in the military and I've never heard of him going to say West Point or wherever elite military people go to. I don't care how much he pushed himself, that's something different altogether. Unless you've been in an environment where your parents push you to no end to achieve, then you have no idea what it is like to not make those expectations and the dejection that comes with that. I'm assuming that the top 5% of American parents probably push their kids that hard, but in Asian countries it's more like top 50%.

that's a bad assumption

i'd say it's probably over 50% in asia, and closer to 50% here. it's just that some people are more forgiving, and we have more options.

there aren't a whole lot of parents who are OK with their kids making D's throughout HS. By the time you're in college, they probably don't care as much, that is unless they're footing the bill. In that case, I'm sure the pressure is pretty intense.

I know when I'd bring home straight A's, year after year, my parents would always say things like "why didn't you get a 100 instead of a 95 on that test?" That and my brother was constantly punished for not doing his homework, he just didn't care.

I think what you're hinting at and missing is that asian kids might actually care more when they disappoint their parents. That and their parents show this disappointment as a method of punishment, whereas in the USA that isn't going to punish a lot of kids that don't already want to succeed. I wasn't inspired to do better because my parents wanted me too, i did it for myself. I took pride in knowing that i was smarter than the people around me, even if I tried to hide it on the outside.

Another factor is that kids in the USA have many other things to be proud about, sports and music being a few. We have a society that values a lot more than just academic achievement, and kids can be pushed towards other fields much harder than thier asian counterparts.

Just imagine the kind of pressure on a HS athelete that's not good enough to make it in college, but it's his only shot, and his parents are realize it. He's under a world of pressure to succeed, more so than people who are under straight academic pressure, because he has both the athletic and academic pressure to contend with.

American kids are pressured just as much or moreso by their parents to succeed, it's one of the reasons we're in the top country in the world. They have different fields to succeed in though, so they aren't always pushed towards academics. That doesn't mean they aren't under just as much pressure to succeed in thier field though.

edit: also, people don't get as dejected in the US when they don't meet their parent's expectations, or so we assume, because maybe they're better able to cope with it. Like you've mentioned, we generally rely on friends and peers over parents after a certain age.

[Epinephrine]

Epi - I dont know about how doctors get paid up there if its all the same in a universal healthcare system but I'm sure you even know about some American schools that are the top tier for their medical programs and how a doctor graduating from that would make more starting than someone graduating from an average school.

Everyone makes the same, no matter America or Canada if they use the insurance (public or private) system, as insurance has standard rates to pay doctors. Some people who charge their own rates (i.e. special surgeries, breast implants, etc) and get people to pay out of pocket can charge whatever they want as long as people are willing to pay. At that point, I guess whatever qualifications customers think are important are what sets the rates for doctors.

Again you know nothing about me. I scored a 1360 on my SAT, and while it may or may not have been top 5%, I'd venture to say it was top 10% easily.

Needless to say, I doubt your parents pushed you that hard. I doubt you had to go to special tutor sessions after school since you were in grade 1 to learn more and get yelled at for actually wanting to go out and play once a month. I don't get a sense that you understand how it is to be really pressured by your parents at all. See my post to cops.

Well this still does nothing to back up your perception that the pressures from his parents to succeed forced him to do it. It just proves that people in Japan can be bullies also. I still dont think they would have the same amount of cliques that we have and therefore they would have less bullying.

No, my stance on Hikikomoris is that even the Japanese do not know why so many people are like that. I clearly stated that in my first post on this thread.

The only thing we're really arguing is that I believe that the part of the third LB post where it says that people working 12-hour days is true, and you think it's false. You linked some random wikipedia article which you yourself disputed it's usefulness:

LOL. And I wonder how those stats are done, because the standard work week is 40 hours and those numbers come out to 34. Must include part time workers.

Considering how bad the Japanese economy has been the last decade and a half and how many people are now officially part-timers, it's safe to say that all those part-time workers (usually younger folks) are lowering the average.

As I've stated numerous times in this or other threads, my purpose for posting is not to teach anyone about what the problem is in these cultures or to prove the existance of a god in the other thread, but to let people know that it is ridiculous to act as though they know anything about these cultures.

Who said anything about teaching? You said that article was wrong for saying people in Japan worked 12-hour days because it doesn't coincide with any worldview that you hold. I said you're wrong. That's the limit of the argument.

My own purpose is to state my opinion from what I personally know. People are free to disagree with me and prove me wrong. I will accept that I'm wrong if people provide me with enough of an argument or evidence of my error. You have provided one wikipedia article which you, yourself doubted. And some personal bias into thinking how you think the world works in Japan, a place you admitted know nothing about. I don't buy it.

EDIT 3: Maybe their economy wouldnt suck so bad if they would have people work instead of sending them home to procreate. The work day is only 8 hours long...does it really take that long to make babies?

VS

I dont think that when I'm in colorado that I'm overburdened with work, but still every so often we'll get early releases on Fridays or family days as a morale boost. Thats just good management because those things help productivity.

Either you don't think sending workers home is 'good management' or you're just a troll.

The military really is not that much different than the rest of the world. You have no supporting argument for how it is considerably different than the working world, so I'll wait for one before responding to it. Again, you're on the outside looking in here.

If you join the military, it owns you. You live where they tell you to. You go to where they deploy you (i.e. Afghanistan). You follow their orders for lots more things than any civilian would ever follow orders. A lot of the time, you live on their bases and eat their food. You have off time only when they let you (i.e. your weekend leave), and even then you're governed by military conduct.

If you have a normal job, you live where you want (assuming the vast majority of people choose a job somewhere close to where they want to live), eat your own food, go home every day, and do whatever you want outside of your prescribed hours of work. I think that's very, very different from being in the military.

[Exalt]

Who said that?

I said that his parents probably didn't push him super, super hard academically because he ended up in the military and I've never heard of him going to say West Point or wherever elite military people go to. I don't care how much he pushed himself, that's something different altogether. Unless you've been in an environment where your parents push you to no end to achieve, then you have no idea what it is like to not make those expectations and the dejection that comes with that. I'm assuming that the top 5% of American parents probably push their kids that hard, but in Asian countries it's more like top 50%.

Do you realize almost 90% of every US president (beside barrack obama of course) was a former member of the military? That more than half the congress and state governers and house of representatives and the rest of them, they were all former military? It is highly pretentious to assume he didn't get pushed hard and that is why he joined the military. Most rich families actually push their children into joining the military so they learn disipline. On top of those, most people who get pushed too hard join the military too, as a way of escaping their parents or current living situation.

I'll put it this way epi. People that are living the easy life don't decide to one day walk to the recruiters office and join the military. Far from it. On top of that, to assume he isn't smart or on the intelligence level of other kids that went to college instead is a complete garbage opinion. Don't make those generalizations.

[Epinephrine]

that's a bad assumption

i'd say it's probably over 50% in asia, and closer to 50% here. it's just that some people are more forgiving, and we have more options.

there aren't a whole lot of parents who are OK with their kids making D's throughout HS. By the time you're in college, they probably don't care as much, that is unless they're footing the bill. In that case, I'm sure the pressure is pretty intense.

I know when I'd bring home straight A's, year after year, my parents would always say things like "why didn't you get a 100 instead of a 95 on that test?" That and my brother was constantly punished for not doing his homework, he just didn't care.

I think what you're hinting at and missing is that asian kids might actually care more when they disappoint their parents. That and their parents show this disappointment as a method of punishment, whereas in the USA that isn't going to punish a lot of kids that don't already want to succeed. I wasn't inspired to do better because my parents wanted me too, i did it for myself. I took pride in knowing that i was smarter than the people around me, even if I tried to hide it on the outside.

Another factor is that kids in the USA have many other things to be proud about, sports and music being a few. We have a society that values a lot more than just academic achievement, and kids can be pushed towards other fields much harder than thier asian counterparts.

Just imagine the kind of pressure on a HS athelete that's not good enough to make it in college, but it's his only shot, and his parents are realize it. He's under a world of pressure to succeed, more so than people who are under straight academic pressure, because he has both the athletic and academic pressure to contend with.

American kids are pressured just as much or moreso by their parents to succeed, it's one of the reasons we're in the top country in the world. They have different fields to succeed in though, so they aren't always pushed towards academics. That doesn't mean they aren't under just as much pressure to succeed in thier field though.

edit: also, people don't get as dejected in the US when they don't meet their parent's expectations, or so we assume, because maybe they're better able to cope with it. Like you've mentioned, we generally rely on friends and peers over parents after a certain age.

Yes, that's what I said a few posts up. In Asian countries, academics is paramount, everything else is insignificant for the most part. Because there is vastly more choice in America, and vastly more things to get pushed for that might better suit your talents, it is different. The athlete that gets pressured, at least they are GOOD at sports. Imagine if someone BAD at sports is also under the same pressure?

I'm not arguing what system is actually better than the other, I'm just stating the way it is. I personally like the North American system where people find their own talents and try hard to succeed in that, rather than the Asian system where people are forced to do well academically (which generally means lots of rote learning, and not much innovative thinking) above all else because that's the way it is. But it's that system and that pressure which really gets to people.

[Epinephrine]

Do you realize almost 90% of every US president (beside barrack obama of course) was a former member of the military? That more than half the congress and state governers and house of representatives and the rest of them, they were all former military? It is highly pretentious to assume he didn't get pushed hard and that is why he joined the military. Most rich families actually push their children into joining the military so they learn disipline. On top of those, most people who get pushed too hard join the military too, as a way of escaping their parents or current living situation.

I'll put it this way epi. People that are living the easy life don't decide to one day walk to the recruiters office and join the military. Far from it. On top of that, to assume he isn't smart or on the intelligence level of other kids that went to college instead is a complete garbage opinion. Don't make those generalizations.

Getting pushed into the military and getting pushed constantly every day of your life to succeed academically beyond your ability are NOT the same thing. The military you can just join even if you don't want to, it's just a decision you make as long as you pass the basic requirements. Being pushed academically every day of your life against your will is something completely different.

I never said anything about his intelligence, I just said he didn't get pushed in the same way, and it's obvious from everything he's said that he hasn't. I don't care how much he wants to do something for himself, that's 100% different from getting pushed by your parents.

[Liquid Blue]

Most rich families actually push their children into joining the military so they learn disipline. On top of those, most people who get pushed too hard join the military too, as a way of escaping their parents or current living situation.

Most rich kids (including some former presidents) don't actually learn any discipline in the military and just slack off because their father is this guy or that guy

I know, work with and have worked with alot of people from all branches of the military and it really is a case by case basis- some are slackers or complain way to often and are vulgar as shit as well; while some are highly motivated, successful and are essentially "pro" in my book. It depends on the person, their upbringing, and their goals in life on whether or not their military service positively affected them.

That said, although I disagree about the 50% of parents in America push their kids hard- I'd say it's somewhere around 35% actually push their kids- the pressure is on for those kids that are less well off. I know I had to stay on my grind, because even though my scholarship took care of half of my total tuition, that was still a shit ton of money my dad had to pay off. I don't know about most scholarships but I had to keep a C average and although that's pretty easy, there are a couple of hard-ass teachers that expect perfection and will fail you if you give them less. That whole shit about art schools are easy is bullshit, it completely depends on the teachers you get.

Knowing I didn't have the money to fuck around and my other options were limited to shitty community college or the army, I worked like a motherfucker. I'm glad I had the pressure though because I see people now that didn't have that pressure, and therefore don't really work as hard or as efficiently as they could- they slack off at their professional jobs, and I personally couldn't stand it. It's a thing with me, I just don't like being shitty at something.

[Exalt]

Getting pushed into the military and getting pushed constantly every day of your life to succeed academically beyond your ability are NOT the same thing. The military you can just join even if you don't want to, it's just a decision you make as long as you pass the basic requirements. Being pushed academically every day of your life against your will is something completely different.

I never said anything about his intelligence, I just said he didn't get pushed in the same way, and it's obvious from everything he's said that he hasn't. I don't care how much he wants to do something for himself, that's 100% different from getting pushed by your parents.

Well, I fail to see the parents pushing you academically point. Teenagers are all rebellious as it is, and if a parent tries to push them in a country like USA beyond their limits the kid will lash back and do the opposite. I've seen it many times. Pushing your kid that hard to succeed is a wash at best, and most likely will make them worse off in life later. Academically speaking, a kid is only as good as his intelligence AND motivation. A parent breathing down your neck to succeed in that world is NOT motivation, actually its the contrary.

[Pandagirl!]

Yea... I have to keep a 3.7 (A-) average to keep my scholarships. Talk about pressure. In addition, 1/3 of my classes each quarter must be either honors classes or upper-division (500 level).