WTF Japan? Epic thread of problems

[Exalt]

From what I understand, in Japan if you do stuff like this you get shunned. I'm not completely sure of the laws there though.

There's so much social pressure to conform in that country that most people just can't go against it. You'll see this from little things like how people always line up for anything and never bud in line, or like how everyone wears that identical suit to work. Furthermore, even if they didn't fire you, they could lower your salary, give you increasingly crappy duties, make your work life a living hell, or make sure you never get promoted again. And then if you didn't do any of these things, they'd have grounds to fire you. All reasons as to why you would do stuff like this if you wanted to keep working there.

If you left your job, you'd lose all the years of seniority that you'd built up, and would have to start from scratch again at the very bottom, unless you were one of the 'elite'.

Well from my experience, the problem with Asian school systems is that they are so "memorization" based, that there is little or no room for actual creativity. It's why Asia is by far the best in manufacturing things already on a blueprint, but they cannot create the blueprint themselves. My thoughts on this are, if some of those Japanese students went to a western school, lets say in North America or possibly Europe, how much more valuable would they be in Japan? If they were electrical engineers that could create a new type of IC chip instead of just being good at manufacturing it, would they not be considered very desirable? If they were mistreated by one company, I'm almost positive another one would gladly take them with a higher salary. It's all about potential profit. See where I'm getting at here? The problem is too many of them have desk jobs and the like, so of course there is stiff competition and they have no leverage in bargaining better work conditions.

[Nycle]

Well from my experience, the problem with Asian school systems is that they are so "memorization" based, that there is little or no room for actual creativity. It's why Asia is by far the best in manufacturing things already on a blueprint, but they cannot create the blueprint themselves.

Quoted for interesting insight. I think you need to distinguish between Japan and the rest of Asia though. Japan contributes a lot to 'creating new blueprints' whereas China for example manufactures the shit out of what is already widely known. I think this demonstrates that civil liberties and innovative competitiveness go hand in hand. The oppresive regime in China works as a natural brake on its people's ability to innovate, therefore it will most likely never be able to compete with let's say the US in the area of innovativity.

Over here in Europe they sometimes say that Europeans work to live while Americans live to work, but after reading this thread I suppose this holds even more true for Japan. It's pretty sad really, because the capitalistic game we play requires evermore effort from its contestants in order to maintain a leading position, and this includes working hours. I think the situation in Japan has evolved beyond anything healthy. You only live once, maybe they need to realize that more and start enjoying life more in order to restore a healthier balance between life and work.

[Izor]

Because bringing Africans in to the EU would do a lot for that rising death rate? I was making fun of their problems in my second post because its funny to me. I'm sure the story I mentioned about the hot coffee lawsuit is funny to them also.

Epi, your stories about people being forced to work overtime is nothing more than hearsay. It's based off your own opinions and what youve heard more than fact. People work extra hours off the clock all the time...just ask volcs. Doesnt mean theyre forced to..just possibly encouraged to.

[Epinephrine]

Well from my experience, the problem with Asian school systems is that they are so "memorization" based, that there is little or no room for actual creativity. It's why Asia is by far the best in manufacturing things already on a blueprint, but they cannot create the blueprint themselves. My thoughts on this are, if some of those Japanese students went to a western school, lets say in North America or possibly Europe, how much more valuable would they be in Japan? If they were electrical engineers that could create a new type of IC chip instead of just being good at manufacturing it, would they not be considered very desirable? If they were mistreated by one company, I'm almost positive another one would gladly take them with a higher salary. It's all about potential profit. See where I'm getting at here? The problem is too many of them have desk jobs and the like, so of course there is stiff competition and they have no leverage in bargaining better work conditions.

That's nice in theory, but how many people in general ever really leave their home countries to study in other countries? First of all, they probably wouldn't be going to 'western schools' for anything less than university as people actually live at home. And then for university, they'd be woefully unprepared as their entire previous education was very different, and most people's foreign language abilities are pretty low at best anyway.

As well, you are automatically assuming that a Western-type education would be positive for them. It would be positive in the West, but would it really be positive in Japan? That's a tough question that I don't have the answer to. Also keep in mind that universities are pretty good in Japan, and that they do produce many Nobel prize winners, and a lot of the advances in engineering and so on that the rest of the world relies on. As well, Japan spends more of their GDP on research than any other large economy in the world, I think the next closest is Switzerland.

Finally you're assuming that people who were not 'team players' at their previous company would magically get a higher paying job at another company, keeping in mind they wouldn't have positive reference letters, and the fact that most employers in general don't want any trouble makers. Job hopping may have been the craze in North America in past decade, but I don't really know if it applies to the rest of the world.

[Izor]

If theyve spent all that money on research, then they understand the principles of management, and that forcing people to work such hours is sacrificing productivity.

EDIT: waiting for the 'princples of management dont apply because of their amazing social pressures' response

[Epinephrine]

Epi, your stories about people being forced to work overtime is nothing more than hearsay. It's based off your own opinions and what youve heard more than fact. People work extra hours off the clock all the time...just ask volcs. Doesnt mean theyre forced to..just possibly encouraged to.

Certainly I'm not from Japan nor have I lived there. I base my knowledge on other things, such as reading Japanese newspapers, watching popular Japanese TV shows, visiting the country multiple times, and generally trying to understand about that country. You can understand a lot about a culture, from subtle cues just by looking at stuff like TV and how they portray themselves. There are far more than enough Japanese TV shows showing people working ridiculous hours because of peer pressure, even when that is absolutely tangental to the actual plot of the show that it can't be made up. Coupled with the fact that if you actually visit the country and see all the people leaving work at 7-8pm and going to work at 7am, then you'd understand.

As well, the Japanese work ethic is pretty much well known, and emulated in Hong Kong where I AM from and where I have tons of relatives living in. There people are also expected to work 12 hour days all the time, it's just what you do, and since a lot of people get paid by salary instead of hourly (at least in any office type job, and in this case Hong Kong's employment patterns are similar to Japan). Expected work hours can easily balloon up with unofficial work hours. Chinese culture is of course different from Japanese culture, but much more similar to each other than anything in the West is.

Finally, relying too much on one number is pretty silly. This average number does not show what the statistical deviation of all the numbers are (perhaps there are a lot of underemployed people working 20 hour weeks which pull down the average), does not tell us anything about how the numbers were collected (filled out by workers? or employers? or by official hours?).

I can easily see how exceptions or wildly inaccurate data was used to create this false low number of an average in Japan, so I would definitely not look too deeply into it.

Finally I want to add that, while people may work long and hard hours in North America, they are usually compensated quite well for it (i.e. lawyers, stock brokers before last year, people pulling in lots of overtime), while in Japan they are not. Any browsing of GDP per person, salary per person, living expenses figures for Japan, GINI coefficient, and even job postings online would show you that people are underpaid compared to other developed countries on average. Underpaid and overworked = depressed people, and for kids that means motivation to go into that world decreases dramatically, so why not just shut themselves in.

[Displaced]

ugh, it isn't a question of "forcing" their employees to work unpaid overtime, it's a matter of honor and self respect for the employees to do so, let alone the shame it would bring on their family and themselves if they didn't give 110% to their job.

Losing face is a HUGE deal in Japan, so much so that many Japanese commit suicide after losing face in what we would see as trivial or meaningless situations.

If you don't have clue #1 as to the Japanese culture, you can't adequately judge them or their behavior.

[Izor]

Certainly I'm not from Japan nor have I lived there. I base my knowledge on other things, such as reading Japanese newspapers, watching popular Japanese TV shows, visiting the country multiple times, and generally trying to understand about that country.

Ok, I can only imagine what other cultures that watch Friends, Lost, Prison Break, The OC, or better yet anything on MTV/BET would think about America. Also, when I visit different parts of the US I get a different experience from any other part. Colorado is most certainly different than NJ, TX, MS, etc. So even if you go everywhere you still might not have an adequate picture in the 2 weeks you spend there. In fact, my time at tech school in Mississippi probably gives me a different impression than someone who lived there for 6 months at another part of the state. When you're there as a tourist you're going to get a different impression entirely.

And more blatant racism about how everyone in Japan must have honor. If I said people in Africa were committing suicide cause they didnt have enough chicken I'm sure I'd get a ban. If many Japanese committ suicide in what we would think are trivial or meaningless situations, I'm sure you have plenty of examples ready? It happens all the time. Surely there must be documentation of it that you would know this. Of course, I'm expecting the typical 'its common sense' reply from someone that doesnt know shit about Japanese culture themselves

[Exalt]

ugh, it isn't a question of "forcing" their employees to work unpaid overtime, it's a matter of honor and self respect for the employees to do so, let alone the shame it would bring on their family and themselves if they didn't give 110% to their job.

Losing face is a HUGE deal in Japan, so much so that many Japanese commit suicide after losing face in what we would see as trivial or meaningless situations.

If you don't have clue #1 as to the Japanese culture, you can't adequately judge them or their behavior.

Well, I would think most of the newer generations have drastically different ideals and ideas than the generation before them. Notice the Hikikomori. The new generations are always more radical and less accepting of the strict culture of the generations before them. What this means is that when the newer generation is set to take over the companies and governments, radical ideas are more accepted. This means it just takes a few individuals from the current new generation to create some change within the workforce as they become the 'elite'.

Think of it this way... 50 years ago Barack Obama would never even be allowed to run for president, let alone win it. That generation would never have accepted him. This generation however, did.

[Epinephrine]

Well Izor, how much can we really know about other people then, seriously? By your strict interpretation, unless you're actually of that place, then it's actually irresponsible for us to even attempt to understand that place. I really don't buy any of that.

Actually if you are so adamant about the differences even within America, you should restrict yourself to not commenting about ANYTHING outside the realm of "Peterson AFB, CO".

I think with enough education and careful observation, we can try and learn more about our fellow human beings rather than have this 'oh it doesn't relate to me, why should I care' attitude that you seem to carry around (see your first post on this thread). For instance, I'm not a woman, but I can understand why sexism would be a big deal to women, or why things like woman's rights are important. I'm not from the Congo, but I can still say that when soldiers are running wild raping women and practicing genital mutilation there, that it's a BAD thing.

So I think I have a vastly larger understand of the Japanese than you do, and while I'm certainly NOT Japanese nor do I claim to be more knowledgeable than an actual person from there who knows their country really well, I can say with a lot of confidence that this problem with hikikomoris are a problem in Japan that normal people living there can't grasp with. If you must compare, it's like emo people here in North America who cut themselves on webcams.

Furthermore from American TV you can definitely learn a lot about the country. It doesn't seem obvious to you, because you live here, but there are more than enough cultural cues. First of all the idea that Americans really don't look down on failure nearly as much as many other cultures can easily be seen (i.e. when Monica gets fired, people rally around her). The idea that friends should comfort friends and should try and get involved with their friend's lives are very obvious (this is not the norm in Asian societies). The idea that people like to express their opinions to strangers, to their boss, to new people they met are very evident in American TV shows. The idea that it's heroic to go against authority is also very evident in American TV (see how once in a while one of those other doctors in House save the day by showing House something he didn't see before). The idea that doing 'the right thing' or obtaining justice is very important to Americans is also very evident in American TV.

There's a lot you can learn from a culture from the sum of their popular entertainment, especially television, and you really shouldn't look down on it because you've never really tried to see anything but your own culture yourself. Once you start exploring other cultures, you will easily start to see all the subtle differences and then start to learn about other people.

[Displaced]

wait, its now racist to point out that the cornerstones of Japanese culture/tradition are respect and honor?

It's not some made up fairytale, it is the truth.

Go back as far as you like in Japanese history and you will find the same underpinnings, Shintoism, while it doesn't have any written commandments does have a basic message of harmony with people and life, Tradition and Family are very Important, as is nature.

Shintoism also doesn't put much stock into the afterlife or anything similar, it is all about what you do here and now that counts.

Kamikaze's are rooted in State Shintoist beliefs about Tradition and Honor, under State Shintoism the State was key, and you had to do your all to ensure the survival of the Japanese state, dying for the state of Japan was an Honor.

Similarly, Samurai beliefs are rooted in Shintoism, the hierarchy was very respected as was tradition and honor.

People today still have close ties to Shintoism, Ikebana is has its roots in the Shintoist mentality, and it is huge in Japan, Japanese gardening has its roots in Shintoism.
Sumo wrestlers still perform traditional Shinto rituals, such as Shiko.
Although Shintoism isn't the official religion of Japan today, it is still very much ingrained in the collective psyche.

Japanese Bhuddism has very similar undetones, respect is also of utmost importance. I.e. Japanese Tea Ceremonies involve a lot of bowing, if the person recieving the bow does not bow down lower in turn it is considered extremely rude, and one loses face. Looking at the person bowing is considered extremely rude as it shows a lack of respect/trust, and is another cause of losing face.

This is still true in normal life, but to slightly lesser extend, people will bow when they greet each other, and they will generally not stare at the person doing the bowing.

I remember in the mid 80's when punk was starting to influence Japanese teens, you would often see teenagers kitted out in leather jackets + boots and mohawks in the weirdest colors possible, yet they would be incredibly polite, bow, and try their best to help you out, even if that meant going out of their way to get you where you were trying to go.

Taxi drivers would be incredibly courteus, they wear white silk gloves at all times and meticulously clean their taxi's, often between passengers and always after their shift to make sure that their taxi is representative of their effort and of their boss, its a sense of pride. Sure they could let their cab be filthy and not carry your luggage, open the door etc, but that would mean that they aren't respectful of you, and thus they would be losing face.

I could probably dig up a lot of examples about harikiri and its causes, but it's all out there for you to find on your own.

As for Exalt, yes I'm sure Tokyo today is somewhat different than it was in the mid 80's, social standards have probably changed and western influence has changed some perceptions, that said from what I understand from friends/family who have been there recently, the basic concept of respect and face is still very important.

Edit:

January 1994
Hierarchical Versus Egalitarian Relationship Patterns
As a person with experience abroad, you know that leaders and followers are found in all societies. Hierarchy in social, political, and business affairs is a fact of life everywhere. But how people deal on a daily basis with their supervisors (or subordinates) differs widely around the world. The American way with hierarchies is not imitated in many other cultures. In your travels, you have encountered contrasting ways. Using them as points of comparison, you probably have gained insight into Americans' patterns. What generalizations would you offer to describe supervisor/subordinate relations in the United States?

Most observers agree that Americans are strongly influenced by an egalitarian mindset. "All men are created equal" captures our faith that human beings everywhere are alike in dignity and worth. On a practical level, that means leaders are viewed as people just like the rest of us. We can treat them informally, give them advice, even disagree with them. Our belief that no one is inherently entitled to lead separates us from cultures in which leaders are selected by ascribed characteristics such as family membership and age. Although this is not unknown in the U.S., we usually identify our leaders on the basis of their achievements. People from disadvantaged backgrounds, young people, and women all are eligible to become boss. We like to see the lowly rise to prominence, and give them much admiration.
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Short and Tall Ladders

Outside the U.S., people are more likely to give much deference to executives and supervisors, and even to teachers and trainers. They are more likely to address leaders using a title and family name ("General Manager Hu"), to avoid disagreeing openly with them, to await their directives without expecting to participate in the decision-making process, and, in general, to assume that their superiors come rather close to being infallible. Because leaders abroad tend to be viewed as a higher order of being, their followers are reluctant to do anything that would even appear to usurp their power or prerogatives, such as taking personal initiative while completing an assignment.

Think of two ladders, each with ten rungs. One is very tall and one is short. The short one symbolizes our American way with hierarchies. People are above and below us on this ladder, but not far above or below. The difference is so small that we can ignore it much of the time. The rung above us is within our reach and, if we are achievers, we can climb higher. The tall ladder symbolizes the way people in many other cultures handle hierarchies. Those above and below them are far away. The level at which one finds oneself is given (ascribed); fast-track climbing is rarely an option. Those who are higher are there by right; their position, the depth of their expertise, and their decisions should not be questioned.
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What Experienced Travelers Know

Some of the lessons learned by American businesspeople with extensive overseas experience are

1. Emphasize the formal, dignified side of your personality; act like your grandparents did.
2. Be confident in your own expertise; playing the eager learner could lose you respect.
3. Do not expect that everyone would like to take initiative or share decision-making power.

Top of page
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February 1994
The Mysterious Concept of "Face"
Understanding "face" (as in "saving face") is a key to establishing good working relationships with business counterparts in much of the world. Americans rarely think about "face," but as an American with experience abroad you've probably bumped into -- or collided with -- the face concept. (Perhaps your mishap occurred during performance appraisals.) If so, the explanation usually given about face, relating it simply to the preservation of dignity, might not seem adequate to you. It didn't to us, so we probed deeper. We soon realized that Americans do have a familiar basis for understanding face: telling "white lies." Here's why.

In all societies, each adult presents him- or herself to others as a certain type of human being, as someone who claims to have certain characteristics and traits. We can make our claims by explicit (verbal) means: "I judge people by their achievements, not by age, alma mater, or family background," for example. Much more often, though, we make our claims by implicit means: choice of friends and associates, typical attire, habitual patterns of behavior, preferred topics of discussion, and so on. We expect others to accept these claims. We also learn to recognize and accept others' claims about themselves. One might say that people learn to accept "at face value" each other's "line" regarding the type of person he or she is. This set of claims, or line, is a person's "face."

As long as each person accepts every other person's face, their interactions can proceed smoothly. In the case of businesspeople, for example, this does not guarantee that they will make business deals with each other. It does guarantee that their focus of attention can be their business concerns, not their claims about traits and characteristics. It is possible to question someone else's claims. One can do this explicitly, as when someone says, "You have no intention of fulfilling these contract terms!" When something like this happens, the focus of the situation shifts abruptly from the business concerns of its participants to the image that one of them is putting forward to the others. The accuser is saying, in effect, "Your traits and characteristics are not what you claim." The accused loses face.

It also is possible to question someone's claims implicitly. Suppose a young female MBA graduate presents herself for a job interview, dressed for success and skillfully behaving as a professional should. If the interviewer talks down to her by explaining a simple point in her field and refers to her as "honey," he has called into question the young woman's claims about herself, causing her to lose face.
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How White Lies Save Face

White lies? They deftly enable us to avoid questioning another's claims about him- or herself -- and our claims about ourselves. If you hand in your budget projections late, you might portray yourself as at the mercy of an external factor ("computer went down"), thereby preserving your claim to be diligent. Purposeful duplicity, even of the white variety, is hardly the only way to maintain one's own face and that of others. Personal qualities such as tact and diplomacy also can play a major role and should be perfected in order to smooth the way for productive international business relationships.

In much of the world outside the United States, people are conscious of face at all times. Many societies, unlike ours, have been extraordinarily stable over the centuries. People tended to spend their entire lives in the company of the same friends, neighbors, relatives, and co-workers. When people are attached for life to a given group, maintaining harmonious relationships among its members becomes of paramount importance. Face-saving behaviors take on great significance; they maintain harmony, avoid conflicts, and protect the integrity of the group.

Concern for face exists in the United States but remains out of most people's awareness. Life in North America has been relatively mobile from the earliest days of European colonization and is highly mobile today. The composition of one's community and friendship groups changes often during one's lifetime; even relatives can be left behind when one decides to search for opportunity elsewhere. Rarely is the maintenance of group integrity and harmony paramount in a lasting way, making face-saving less critical. Our low concern for face is understandable, but we can't allow ourselves to be ignorant or apathetic about face when we are doing business abroad, especially in Asia, where concern for face is high.
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What Experienced Travelers Know

Some of the lessons learned by American businesspeople with extensive overseas experience are

1. Never show anger! Avoid direct confrontations at all costs; use intermediaries instead.
2. Apologize for possible affronts, even those that would never upset others in the U.S.
3. Do not insist that your hosts respect your "rights" or opinions.
4. Defer to those above you by virtue of age or rank; be considerate of those below you.
5. Address people using honorific and professional titles until asked to do otherwise.
6. Be very mild if, in the presence of others, you are invited to offer criticism. In some cultures, an underlying purpose of meetings is to "give face" (demonstrate positive mutual regard).
7. Avoid direct criticism during performance appraisals. Find an indirect way of giving bad news, e.g., by using an intermediary or quietly withdrawing a perquisite previously enjoyed.

Face, giving face, saving face, showing face, losing face..

These are foreign terms to many people, bring confusion to some and blank looks from others. It's something that is at least partially ingrained into Asian culture, most noticably amongst the Japanese but also strongly with Chinese too.

Let's start with a quote (my usual style).

To gain face, give face; to lose face, try to save face or take face away. Frydherik Eysenkopf

If we look at the dictionary definition of the word, the most applicable in this context would be:

6. a. Value or standing in the eyes of others; prestige: lose face.

So there we have it, face is the societal standing of a person from the perspective, this 'face' thing is all about how others see you, how they percieve your value, status, credibility or social standing. The Chinese terms for face are 'lian' and 'mianzi'.

By understanding face and how to 'give face' one can suceed in negotations and avoid conflict with all egos and relationships intact. As with anything it's always better to give than to take, especially in Asian culture, they are a very respectful and honour based society, so people get higher social standing by 'giving face' left right and centre. It boils down to tread carefully and avoid humilating your opponent, in Western societies, we have thick faces, so we tend to be more sarcastic, less polite and a hell of a lot more open when we criticise..In Asia this is not acceptable, criticism must be done very gently, a lot of ego rubbing is required.

This is known as low-context and high-context cultures. Most cultures would combine the two in part, but sway more towards one side. Western countries would tend to be low-context, this means it's an individualistic society, and believes in freedom of the individual. Due to this most verbal communication very often direct, and that there is very little concern about non-verbal cues. So in UK and US for example the right to individuality supercedes any non-logical duty to your family, clan, race, or country. People are direct, they "say what they mean and mean what they say."

High-context countries would be those such as Korea, China, Japan, Malaysia, Singapore, parts of the Middle-East and South America. These would be considered more traditional, hierarchal countries which are referred to as collectivistic, or interdependent.

The main difference is in low-context societies, conflict is normal, it happens, we deal with it, it's nothing special. In high-context societies, it's a big deal, group harmony is paramount. For example people from high-context societies will tend to avoid conflict and in general (Especially Japanese) will rarely utter a full-on 'No'. For us barbaric Westerners, saying 'No' is not a consideration, it's a normal answer to a request or question.

All these subtle societal nuances cause conflicts, I mean...how are people supposed to know?

Ok so now you understand what 'face' is. Let's get onto the others.

The most familiar term to most would probably be 'saving face', which we can take to mean not being disrespectful to others in public, also it can mean taking preventive actions so that we will not appear to lose face in the eyes of others, or even helping out someone else in a situation where they could possibly lose face. Generally it's meant as allowing someone to 'lose' with dignity and still allow them to be portrayed as a good leader/person/partner/colleague or whatever. Giving face can be said to be pretty much the same thing, to give someone face would be to let them come off worst but still look good.

Best defined as such:

"When one party states their needs and wants in an honorable manner, taking into consideration the notion of mutual face-concern, this is called face-assertive behavior. When one side purposely takes action to enhance the honor of the other, especially in regard to national face, this is called face-giving behavior. As can be expected, low-context cultures tend to engage in more face-threatening exchanges, while high-context cultures will focus more on face-honoring exchanges."

Source: Face - Sarah Rosenberg

Showing face, is acting repsectfully and not causing yourself or others to lose face.

Losing face can happen under any number of circumstances that cause a damaging social event such as being humiliated in front of your peers, exposure to personal insult, failure to achieve goals, damage to a valued relationship, being belittled or losing your temper. Meetings often exist solely for the purpose of giving face to one another.

Some tips:

1. Don't show anger, don't lose your temper
2. Avoid saying no directly
3. Try and make everything win-win wherever possible
4. Apologise if you think you offended someone
5. Defer to those 'above' you (Age and seniority)
6. Address people using the Honorific
7. Be mild in giving criticism
8. Follow what others do (e.g. if someone hands you something with 2 hands, take it with two hands)

Just found those two articles very quickly, they do a better job of conveying it than I can.

[Izor]

There's a lot you can learn from a culture from the sum of their popular entertainment, especially television, and you really shouldn't look down on it because you've never really tried to see anything but your own culture yourself. Once you start exploring other cultures, you will easily start to see all the subtle differences and then start to learn about other people.

You're making the assumption that I dont try to learn about other cultures now. But you cant go from 'honor' to 'working 15 hour days' just like that for one. Also, American tv is a bad thing to pick admittedly because there are so many different cultures here. However if the Japanese admired perfection so much, shows like Takeshis Castle (aka mxc) wouldnt be around, because all the people do in it is make asses out of themselves. You're making it seem like all these people live for is honor. Thats just not true. If I watched MTV I'd be certain all white people live for is to hurt themselves doing stupid things and be in stupid reality tv shows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdPWfFsrgf4

On your interpretation, everyone that couldnt win that fucking ez ass game should go committ suicide cause they failed and dishonored their families.

[kthx]

It might be racist and homophobic but you can't deny that is true. Third world countries have much higher birth rates than in countries like America, Japan or most countries in Europe. How can you argue that the lack of knowledge, lack of contraceptives and other such things don't have any impact on that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quincea%C3%B1era

Girls come into age at 15 in the Spanish culture, and from a few of my Spanish friends this is also the first night that the girls boyfriend is allowed to spend the night. What age does it become appropriate for women to start becoming a woman and start having sex, 18 in most, and even then abstinence and other things are pretty much preached to most children in America from an early age.

The same goes for rampant homosexuality in a culture, it does cause lower birth rates, and the fact that it is socially acceptable in most of the dominant countries in the world just means that like I said before, that it becomes easier and easier to actually become gay without having to worry about the social stigma of being gay.

You can all cry about me being a gay basher or a racist all you want but in all honestly what I am saying is true, there are facts to back it all up, just look at the highest birth rates and look at what countries have them. The evidence speaks for itself.

[Kolar]

I think you can find a correlation between prosperity and declining birth rates and smaller families. I think it's more of an issue of money and resources, if a family is more affluent and wealthy they will plan on having less kids. Contraceptives and abortion might play a part in both declining birth rates in post-industrial nations and higher birth rates in the third world but I think the overriding issues: education and the fact that life in the third world just sucks are more important. Mortality rates are higher and fewer pregnancies result in live births. I don't think the gay issue really factors into it. There's no evidence that homosexual couples can't raise healthy, well adjusted children just as a heterosexual couple could or that homosexuals due to their sexual orientation completely refrain from having offspring. But that's getting into the debate over the nuclear family which is too much to get into for this thread.

[Displaced]

and what you don't know about shows like Takeshis castle is that pretty much all of the participants work for some major corporation and are there to promote it, and try their hardest in the challenges without "losing face".

i.e. the karaoke segment, they get some crappy song with abusive punters, and basically score on how well they keep their composure, not how much of an idiot they come off as.