Skill factors in this game

[Dark Shadow]

I've recently held a conversation which gave me the opportunity to share some of my views on the highly debatable and controversial topic of what truly makes up skill in this game.

I know some of you are fans of the talent-factor arguments, and others shove the metaphysical aspects aside and claim it's just a point and shoot thing, while others argue it's a matter of pure intellect. The following log goes over another theory that some of you may be interested in considering.

jones> the skill level nowadays is much higher in my oppinion
Stasua> And too many damn newbs too
Lofty> I agree Jones..I can see the shift of skill from when i came back from retirement in january of last year, until today
Stasua> Kinda takes the fun out of it once in a while, but ya can't really do anything about that
Lofty> Within this year and a half, especially since the same month I came back the automated TWD system came into play, it gave so many more people the opportunity to dd
Lofty> Since before that it had to be hosted
Lofty> So now all these players can play whenever they want
Lofty> And its just so much more radical now in dd than it was a year and a half ago
Lofty> Yeah so many more people are skilled at dd now than a year ago
Lofty> Sometimes I find myself blaming it on luck and that they are all newbies because I keep judging using the overall skill pool model from the past, shortly after I came back from retirement
Lofty> But then I realize that there's just a mass shift in skill
Stasua> Those who picked up and started playing this game a year ago and DD alot are still inconsistent
Stasua> So you can say it is luck alot of the time
Lofty> Yeah but I still see a lot of more advanced shit random no-named people pulling these days
Lofty> Back when the system was first implemented, the automated TWD system, the ones who came out on top were those already experienced in DD, and those with the most talent who caught on the quickest
Lofty> And now...the rest of the mass is catching up, and that makes things frustrating, especially for those who are too stubborn to accept that people get better, or that the skill pool is shifting upwards
Stasua> Well people who play other games before they start playing SS get an advantange sometimes
Lofty> In this game it's mostly a thing of talent
Lofty> Some people just have it, some don't; hand-eye coordination, proper visual evaluation, it's mostly genetical things that can't be altered, and how your mind works
Stasua> lol
Lofty> But motivation is necessary in any case, but how far you'll get is determined by talent
Stasua> Well, you can use that point for VFX
jones> and me...
Lofty> This game is approximately = 65 % [max. confidence value up to BUT not higher than maximum talent value]; 20 % intelligence; 15 % ambition/motivation
Stasua> 10% reflex
Lofty> Reflex goes into the talent factor
Lofty> For the most part it's a variable that spans relatively to your mind capability, and how well it can react
Lofty> You can train it, but how far your limits are is determined by your mind's competence
Lofty> Anyway, I think I've figured it out more or less
Lofty> Confidence in this game is relative to the talent factor
Lofty> The more talent you have, the more weight the confidence factor has
Lofty> Because confidence is the vehicle through which it is determined how far you can go to your talent limits
Lofty> But without talent, confidence factor becomes obsolete
Stasua> I think you need confidence to help your talent improve
Stasua> Well, your skill level
Lofty> You need confidence to get more bang out of your talent buck
Stasua> That works
Lofty> Say your max talent value is 46
Lofty> And your confidence variable is 23 (I wont give confidence a maximum/minimum value because unlike talent, it's more a state of mind and can change, whereas talent is more genetically restrained)
Lofty> That means that you will only be able to use up to 23 measurement units of your maximum talent potential
Lofty> Even though your maximum talent value is 46
Stasua> WTH does that mean man?
jones> I see..
Lofty> The more confidence you have, the further you can reach towards your maximum talent value
Lofty> It works the other way as well
Stasua> What is a variable?
Lofty> If your confidence variable is 48, but your maximum talent value is 20
Stasua> Talent value...
Lofty> Then you will only be able to go to your maximum talent value of 20
Stasua> and this means...
Lofty> And all the surplus confidence will be obsolete
Zerofade> rofl statua
Lofty> I'm just giving relative variables
Lofty> To use in comparison
Lofty> Dont pay attention to what the numbers are
Stasua> K
Stasua> Keep talking
Lofty> I'm just using it to show an analogy which can be understood
Lofty> Suppose talent is measured in units of 1
Stasua> I understand what you said
Zerofade> how do u measure talent
Selex> Suppose
Lofty> It's not measured officially, but suppose it was
Lofty> Obviously different people have different levels of talent
Lofty> So lets say we use 1 as the standard measurement usage for talent
Lofty> And suppose someone's mind capability has it that 40 units of talent is their maximum talent potential value
Lofty> Now lets say confidence is also measured in units of 1
Lofty> And someone's confidence level is at 20 units
Lofty> That means they will only be able to utilize their talent up to 20 units
Zerofade> ..
Lofty> Due to the confidence that is fueling their performance
Lofty> Even though their maximum potential, talent-wise is capped at 40 units
Lofty> If someone has little talent, say 5 units is their max talent value
Lofty> Then any confidence value above 5 really makes no difference
Lofty> Because their maximum talent only allows to 5
jones> Is it like, believe in yourself that you are able to kill the big names in say a duel or something and you will try more automatically the more you believe?
Lofty> Yeah sort of
Lofty> In a way
Lofty> I know I'm arrogant and I don't often accept people as being better or higher than me, that helps me use my talent to the maximum and I dont really get held back
jones> O, I see
Lofty> Of course, if my talent level was too low it wouldn't matter if I thought I WAS the best
jones> I fail in that confidence...
Lofty> I'd still suck because my talent can't live up to my confidence value
Lofty> But confidence value must live up to the highest talent level you have, otherwise a portion of talent won't be used
Lofty> Of course this is just my subjective model of talent/skill/confidence topography, but I think it helps explain certain non-materialistic values easier
jones> I think I understand some of these
jones> But it all comes down to 2 things, that this game is made upon
Lofty> I'll post this convo on a forum, maybe some other people will bring up perspectives which help digest some of these factors
jones> aim and dodge, this is just my opinion, I may be ignorant and stuff...
jones> oh, nice
Lofty> Yes, aim and dodge are heavily influenced by talent factor
Lofty> but you can't make yourself live up to your best aim or dodge potential if you dont have the confidence to fuel it
jones> the way you know how you move how you believe at the same time you dodge or move into a position to shoot...
jones> I know I dont have enough confidence
Lofty> Seems most people don't; I can't really relate since I've never had this issue, I'm pretty arrogant in most fields in life
Lofty> It has it's ups and downs I suppose
jones> You know...
jones> I regret I never joined solstice with my main name and started playing there for real :/
jones> I did a wrong turn
jones> uhm, out of curiousity, do you have any dueling guides or something?
Lofty> No I never wrote dueling guides, but I did contribute a lot to the Best Wb Styles thread, check my posts out there


That's my take on skill factors in this game. I'm sure lots of people have their own ideas on this subject, some might be certain variations of what I put up; feel free to share any.

i got bored of lofty's big words after the first 3 setences...can any one summarazi it?

[Jerome Scuggs]

" This game is approximately = 65 % [max. confidence value up to BUT not higher than maximum talent value]; 20 % intelligence; 15 % ambition/motivation"

[Troll King]

"... purple monkey dishwasher."

[Squeezer]

skill is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo overrated.......just kill things without being killed

[Jerome Scuggs]

The Anti-Scrub javving method is 100% succesful

[banzi fuq]

the skill I believe that is helping me the most is paying attention to what is going on around me. i can tell you now that next time i see u in elim, im thinking about either how im going to kill you, or how im going to trick someone else into thinking im going to kill you and them im going to kill them.

people always say "luck" to me, thinking I made some impossible shot in jav or wb, but to me..if the shot isnt attempted then it cannot happen. people clearly die from you putting the pain where they dont expect it..

#1 is probably knowing whats goin on around me,

#2 is probably planning a move...while in some cases its kind of a relaxed lob of bullets for me, if pressure is on like a 3v1 in elim/league or a duel is getting down to the wire, you've got to THINK about the situation to have a better chance of escaping alive..otherwise it is probably just luck that you made it out. "intelligence"..

#3 is the reflex and hand eye coordination needed to spin at the proper angle and and press keys at the same time..

basically this is what epine was stating..as a new player you won't get a chance to learn strategies if you can't stay alive with agile movements. after some time, reflexes and "spatial orientation" kind of sink into subconscious and all you are left to do is strategize.

if I had to scout out skills of elim/dl/jl players to pickup i would favor reflexes over other skillsets...but wouldnt invest hope in anyone who couldnt show a grasp of all 3 with consistency.

[geekbot]

Granted the reasoning capabilities you appear to demonstrate, I give you enough credit to believe that you can simply deduce which confidence terminology I am trying to use out of those provided in the dictionary, though I accept your deviations from that, deviations through which you apparently wish to emphasize your conflicting views.

You have devestated my self-esteem with dictionary definitions and vague posts. I have no choice but to submit and destroy my laptop in disgust.

EDIT: I only offered what I think is a similar view from the world of psychology and tried to clarify (understand) your use of the word "confidence". You're not so good at making friends.

[kthx]

-

Well pretty much the reason for the skill level increasing is trenchwars of obvious, I will explain it in a prodem sense.

Everyone starts out in ship 8 - At first, there are alot of newbies who learn basic moves and strategies to help kill each other, But slowly the number of people who know these basic moves and strategies increases, those players also learn new moves and stategies, who make new moves and strategies.. see where I am going? Eventually there are say.. 10 out of 100 people in warbird who started in a shark, those are the players who had the best intellect, and reflexes, but the people in ship 8 saw the way they played and dodged and learned from them. So lets say, after a year 80/100 of the original sharks are now warbirds, lets say 200 more people join the game, well they have a much better chance of learning more advanced moves more quickly since there are already started warbirds who can show them the ropes. The more TW grows, the quicker the newbies learn, because the more good players there are to learn from.

[NaiLed]

"... purple monkey dishwasher."

hehehe

[Lofty]

EDIT: I only offered what I think is a similar view from the world of psychology and tried to clarify (understand) your use of the word "confidence". You're not so good at making friends. - Geekbot

I come to a forum to read, critique, or share my two cents, not make friends. No need for self flattery with your pressuppositions as to who I'd want to make friends with or where in the first place.

In any case, I see what you're trying to say with your 'flow' concept, and I think that we are picking at polar opposite points of the same concept pretty much, like saying a glass is half full or half empty. My confidence concept and your flow concept share a middle ground.

[Security]

Lag = Skill

guys with the 200+ pings and high ploss are almost unstoppable.

Guys like me with the 80ish pings are at the mercy of laggers.
Countless times i've hit someone DEAD on (you don't have to tell me the physics about how that could not hit on their screen) and they just shoot me back and kill me.

Frustrating server, luckily though it's not as bad in TW as it is in EG.

[Creature]

Lag is way overrated. I usually have access to a 40 ms connection so I don't really feel much lag. With the expection of other laggy people sometimes eating a bullet, by a hair usually. However, at the moment i'm in China on a T1 connection, but the TW servers, being in the US I get around 500 ms of lag.

People think the laggots bullets appearing 1 inch ahead of them is annoying. Just wait until EVERYONE on your whole screen is shooting bullets that way, which occurs when YOU have high lag. The ability to play well even with lag still requires talent. It isn't as easy as just shooting and them not seeing the bullet until the bullet is right in front of them when they don't have time to react.

To play well in lag, you need to know WHEN they are going to shoot, not just react once they shoot, because many of the times to you don't the time with bullets appearing 1 inch ahead of ships. And rushing/running is also annoying as hell with lag. People stop, go, stop, go, but on the screen of the "laggot" you will keep going, then suddenly STOP. It's nearly impossible to hit anyone unless you wait for them to stop then shoot, you can't take a slow bullet and hit them in the face because when you shoot, they aren't actually there. I'm sure anyone that gets 0.1 s2c and 0.0 c2s with 400-500 ms of lag knows what i'm talking about.

Just a babble on lag that's all

[Roi]

True.
As someone who played with lag for a very long time, I must say, that lag is overrated, you have to forsee where your opponent will be in .5 secs , that could be really different than non-laggers' .1-.3, especially in high speeds.
However, lag is usually a slight advantage, because laggers know how to handle lag, but if someone lags against you, you get confused, your hits dont count and that upsets you, and makes you unfocused.
Which means, in order to beat lag you must understand lag (or just hope for luck )

[Lofty]

There are lots of ways lag can affect the playing ability of a player. But for the most part lag overall conditions a player more than a player who doesn't have lag, and even if it hinders them, if they ever lose it they'll have more of an advantage without lag than people who never had lag in the first place.

And also, players with lag can demonstrate more talent/skill than those without it, since certain stunts can only be pulled through lag manipulation, and the game with lag becomes more in-depth (though the argument can be made whether this depth is legitimate or fair etc.)

There's many other points that could be brought up about lag, but those are some key ones.

[Bob (SRB)]

The old lag argument. I've been on a shitty connection and i lagged like hell and at first I absolutely hated it. Mainly because if i hit anyone that was at least somewhat close to me in a rush, they would NEVER die. But the advantage was that I could fly around and do crazy things, and end up not dying when I thought I surely would. This was a high ms connection im talking about. It is all about knowing how to manipulate your lag. Someone who has truly mastered their lag like sika has a blatant advantage over people with good connections.

In my opinion the best lag someone would want to have for an advantage is s2c. Now s2c doesn't have as much effect as high ping but it has one major advantage. With a high ping, it doesn't matter as much if someone shoots a bullet at you. As long as the bullet is travelling towards you, you can be killed by it. The case with ping laggots is that a lot of the time what the shooter would think is a hit ends up missing on the laggots screen, and what seemed to be a miss on the shooters screen kills the laggot. But with high s2c, lots of the time shots don't register at all so you don't even have to worry about dodging. Also, with a high s2c you don't get the same thing as ping where it looks like everyone is lagging except you. It's almost as if you aren't lagging at all, except for occasional spikes and flashes and stuff. So lots of people come to the conclusion that packetloss laggots are cheating. The HUGE disadvantage about s2c though is that there are very strict limits on it. I can't quite remember because I don't have to worry about my connection anymore, but in pub the s2c max is 13%, in elim i think it is 6% and in twd i think it's 4%. And at about 7 or 8 percent s2c I'd estimate 1/4 of enemy shots won't register on your screen. So the only place you can exploit s2c is in pub, and maybe if you're lucky and have 5.7% or something, elim. So about 80% of the time s2c was just a big hassle that wouldn't allow me to play numerous matches. But occasionally when my s2c was huge and I was pubbing or something, it was like magic