Test a Cram Reset in ?go base

[ogron]

1) I think most people are for the cram reset, we should def test it. Not sure the time left is relevant, but maybe something will pop-up that will make us say "hmmm"

2) The whitelist isn't a ban... it's just for the first 30 seconds after a game finishes. There will be plenty of opportunities for people not on the list to cap, and find their way on it eventually when they're more experienced. We're not male landowners preventing people from ever capping. We're saying when you become a veteran you can !cap whenever you want. Almost everyone should eventually be able to cap base, but it should be a privilege, not a right, to have an impact over 15 other player's game experience.

Just like we don't let anyone cap TWDT. Capping is an inherent responsibility because you're impacting the next 15-20 minutes of someone's game experience. You want the highest percentage probability of a good game with decent lines on both sides. This benefits newbies too, but they don't seem to understand that.

The vast majority of experienced players all support a whitelist. It's trolls and bad players on forums who want the power to add themselves in whatever ship they please and do as they like and ensure they play every game. Of course they don't support the measure. They don't have to earn the right, they just have to type !cap fast and they and do whatever and turn it into a shit experience for everyone but themselves. Why would they want to give that up?

I've excoriated tons of vets, too, for playing specials (wb/jav/lanc) in ?go base against scrubs and ruining the game just so they can have fun at the expense of 15 other people. Capping is a responsibility. You have control over other's fun.

3) Then use my list as a baseline, and add the players people feel should be on it (ie, Midoent) using your data-driven approach. We can keep adding names as we go.

4) I have a 59.9% winrate because I try to add balanced lines and add newer players. I also perform an artificial cram reset and let enemy teams in when the lines are bad, and have been for years, to try to get more FR battles. I could probably push that to 70-75% if I was going all out. I wouldn't want a win% much higher than 60, would mean you're going too hard in ?go base.

I see Major out there with a 90% winrate : D

[Falconeer]

1) I think most people are for the cram reset, we should def test it. Not sure the time left is relevant, but maybe something will pop-up that will make us say "hmmm"

2) The whitelist isn't a ban... it's just for the first 30 seconds after a game finishes. There will be plenty of opportunities for people not on the list to cap, and find their way on it eventually when they're more experienced. We're not male landowners preventing people from ever capping. We're saying when you become a veteran you can !cap whenever you want. Almost everyone should eventually be able to cap base, but it should be a privilege, not a right, to have an impact over 15 other player's game experience.

Just like we don't let anyone cap TWDT. Capping is an inherent responsibility because you're impacting the next 15-20 minutes of someone's game experience. You want the highest percentage probability of a good game with decent lines on both sides. This benefits newbies too, but they don't seem to understand that.

The vast majority of experienced players all support a whitelist. It's trolls and bad players on forums who want the power to add themselves in whatever ship they please and do as they like and ensure they play every game. Of course they don't support the measure. They don't have to earn the right, they just have to type !cap fast and they and do whatever and turn it into a shit experience for everyone but themselves. Why would they want to give that up?

I've excoriated tons of vets, too, for playing specials (wb/jav/lanc) in ?go base against scrubs and ruining the game just so they can have fun at the expense of 15 other people. Capping is a responsibility. You have control over other's fun.

3) Then use my list as a baseline, and add the players people feel should be on it (ie, Midoent) using your data-driven approach. We can keep adding names as we go.

4) I have a 59.9% winrate because I try to add balanced lines and add newer players. I also perform an artificial cram reset and let enemy teams in when the lines are bad, and have been for years, to try to get more FR battles. I could probably push that to 70-75% if I was going all out. I wouldn't want a win% much higher than 60, would mean you're going too hard in ?go base.

I see Major out there with a 90% winrate : D

I'm against not letting anyone cap TWDT. There are ways to mitigate fallout from bad lines, from even getting other people to choose the teams, but still allowing people to captain once those teams are chosen.

No one here is trolling, if someone *needs* an enemy in the game to stay motivated, or wants to pick fights, thats perfectly fine with me. I grew up in environments of war both in real life and online. But you are just a hypocrite who hides behind a facade while taking a moral high ground... when i trolled the game I openly admitted what I was... however you often troll, put people down, and attack people for not being like you, but then judge others and write them off as trolls... you could pass for an archetypal 2000 era troll who stays a thorn in the community while pretending not to be one. Very basic and easy to do.

Being a bully doesn't make you tough though, he may have what is confused as outward strength because of a lack of self control. But mentally he is a weak person, and i don't mean intellectually.

The people who care about the power to add themselves are the ones who started threads about it and asked for a VIP whitelist. Again I don't care if I captain, I care if I can find a game right away and not get benched like I have been through all of TWDT.

You're also running a strawman argument, as well as generalizing and speaking for the thoughts of "the vast majority of experienced players"... the strawman is people don't want a whitelist. When in fact, i think most people here can see the benefit to balanced teams and games, but 1. find a proper way to implement a whitelist 2. fix the cram issue and you already improve the balance of the game, and really things should be decided after that point. No one to my knowledge is outright against a whitelist. Stop spreading lies please.

[Jessup]

Thanks for saying that falc. It is most assuredly a factor in my statistics. I do think like that and have definitely at times done this. Since when is ?go base so much pressure anyways. TWD is set up for the serious gameplay. Some people are treating this like a league.

[qan]

Coded the earwarp. Will put it in later on with 3 minute delay. It will also warn that a hold is about to be completed 10 seconds before, so that everyone can prepare. I'm pretty excited to see how it turns out.


I understand what you say about the whitelist, but there's still the need to add all of the caps over certain thresholds (which thresholds would be used?). And then the fact that caps will continue to play, so that someone who was once ineligible due to the thresholds later would be. It would need updates to remain fair. If that can't be done automatically, it's a bit mendokusai/bothersome.

As we trial the earwarp change, let's also trial !cap with a small delay on it, just to see if it's able to accomplish some of what the whitelist would be able to. Worth a shot, right? The delay can be bypassed by someone else typing !cap <name> during the wait. This might even create an interesting situation where 3+ people !cap, and others are able to choose between who to second.

Admittedly, at first it might work essentially like it does now, because nobody will know how to use it/be able to figure it out in time, so the two who do !cap first will still become cap. But eventually, it should allow some small semblance of vetting, which should at the very least hamper trolls and the very inexperienced from ruining games.


Interesting about win rates. If you think about it, if there were some way to isolate the personal skill of the cap out of the equation (as in, if they didn't play), a win rate of exactly 50% would actually be the ideal cap. Potentially a cap could also take their own skill into account.

[ogron]

Awesome, I look forward to trying it out, thanks.

[Jessup]

Admittedly, at first it might work essentially like it does now, because nobody will know how to use it/be able to figure it out in time, so the two who do !cap first will still become cap. But eventually, it should allow some small semblance of vetting, which should at the very least hamper trolls and the very inexperienced from ruining games.

.

I am still waiting for the proof that ?go base games have been being trolled and very inexperienced players have been ruining it. This is just not true. The whole accusation from the start is flat and full of non descript accusations in my opinion. Perhaps we can start by seeing who the trolls are and the games that were ruined in the past few months.

Also doing a popularity contest for caps is not ideal either as this can obviously be exploited and trolled.

Statistics without complete game info too is iffy at best. Many variables can impact these things like lines that were added for fun just to allow players on one side to play who are inexperienced. Also variables such as rage quitters who ruined the game or lagouts in games where no one is left to sub and the team plays short handed happens too. Many times in the old days base games would go and then a twd base game would take place and people would just leave midway through the game. Things like this always have hounded Wbduel, Javduel and base duel in public arenas.

Also how would a player move up to be on a special list to cap if they are never allowed to cap until ?go base dies. Let's not kid ourselves, base when active has the cap spot claimed within 5 seconds. It would be an effective shut out for anyone not on the list until base dies and the arena does not have enough to even start a game.

[Mootland Farmer]

Surely players should be trying to figure out how to break the cram? Should we be stepping in because players can't beat it?

Cramming is not hard to do, nor is it hard to break, but it was developed from the original base 'line' defense without any external modifications.

If a new defense comes in (maybe unlikely since the cram has survived for so long), do we break that up too?

We should be looking at developing teamwork and innovation instead.

[7roll]

We should be looking at developing teamwork and innovation instead.

Well said.

[Rab]

Veteran sighting Mootland Farmer with the response that made sense 15 years ago.

[Jessup]

I am not against a test to see how it works as far as the cram bust area goes but am also am really hesitant feeling at the same time. The pure old settings are what we all grew to love. Sometimes leaving things alone is better.

The unbreakable cram is a misnomer too. There is no such thing....

Still open to seeing it tested though for the sake of being progressive.

[qan]

Tested with Undercut a second ago, seems to be working after some initial hiccups. This should be interesting. UC's take: maybe the timer should start from the TeK, rather than flag claimed. Potentially there could even be a vicious FR battle going for 3min at round start where one team still manages to keep the flag the entire time, though not so common. From the TeK seems to support the idea of the thing, which is to reset after 3 minutes of pure domination. Ideally it would be after a clear, but that's a little trickier to check and probably slightly prone to bugs.

And yeah, always worth trying things, Jess. Our game does scratch the nostalgia itch, so we tend not to make big changes ... but this one feels like it could freshen things up in an interesting way. Base has needed some very slight reimagining for a while now. Doesn't have to be too dramatic but a few carefully-made changes could breathe new life into it.

[Jones]

Reduce basing games from 15-3 minutes. Only allow players on spastic and thunder to be added to base games. Problem solved

[Rab]

UC's take: maybe the timer should start from the TeK, rather than flag claimed.

Yes, this is obvious now it's been said, it should be from the TeK.

The time to clear the FR is always subtracted from your 3 minutes, so that's fair.
The time between claiming the flag then getting a TeK can vary a lot, so TeKs would be worth different amounts, and that's not fair. It almost makes a reason for not claiming the flag, which is just weird.

[Pressure]

So we're just going to say "cram break is too hard, let's just warp to ears like pub when one team is dominating"? Cram break is one of my favorite parts of being a terr, and we're just going to throw the challenge and skill associated with it away?

I'm getting closer and closer to hanging up my competitive basing hat with all these dumbass proposed changes. If this change and other changes trickle into competitive basing that's pretty much the nail in the coffin for the league.

[ogron]

Tested with Undercut a second ago, seems to be working after some initial hiccups. This should be interesting. UC's take: maybe the timer should start from the TeK, rather than flag claimed. Potentially there could even be a vicious FR battle going for 3min at round start where one team still manages to keep the flag the entire time, though not so common. From the TeK seems to support the idea of the thing, which is to reset after 3 minutes of pure domination. Ideally it would be after a clear, but that's a little trickier to check and probably slightly prone to bugs.

If you can program that properly, even better.