Cloakers in ?go base

[Stabwound]

So let me see if I get this straight exactly:

Basing is supposed to be about defending the flag, as a team game and reflect the strategy and techniques used to accomplish this goal. However, you say change ship 6 because it adds an entirely different tactic and thing to have to watch for, in defending the flag as a team.

Well, I mean that's literal minded and everything but uh guys, you're supposed to be defending the flag, not "keeping up the cram".
I think that's why it's called "Basing" and not "Cramming for Fun and Profit".

In effect, get the fuck over yourselves, crybabies. If people can manage to stave off X in pubs when there's 3 or 4 coming constantly (along with all the other shit), what excuse do you have, exactly?

See staff, this is what I was talking about when I said that people will always find something to complain and be pouty about. It happens, but if you just leave whatever in for a long enough time it stops becoming "The new changes that suck because I have to adapt", and becomes "How things are."

Who are you again? I have a feeling that you have no place to be talking like this, especially considering you compare a pub situation to 8vs8 basing.

[Aura]

wait, remember kids, we are talking about ?go base. We're not talking about pub. So get the facts straight. It's a bad ship that needs to be removed. That's the moral of the story. Any accomplished baser will agree.

[Sarien]

Stabwound:
Naturally, the who am I bit. I have no place writing that, even though I'm right. I compared the pub situation to point out that even despite the fact you have your elitist mentality, you neglect the point that pub terrs adjust to the situation, because they have to, and do it against greater numbers. I'm just some nobody to you, if that answers your question. I've just never minded being a nobody. Especially if being a somebody turns people into a guy like you.

Kolar:
I have been there, and I don't particularly care for the majority of what I saw. This thread pretty much illustrates that perfectly. Rather than really try and consider ways to work with it and counter the situation that messes with you, people are just saying "ban it". What precisely will you guys do if the little weasel is put into TWLB8? Complain about it? Or sit down and really work with your team to deal with it? It's like the whole 4 vs 5 spider argument. The more flexibility you have in putting together your teams, and the more offensive and defensive tactics a team can have at its disposal, the more you'll end up with epic games, where the real best overall team comes out on top. Instead of who can hold a static defense line by rote. That is what the game is supposed to be about, isn't it? By the way, thanks for being respectful and decent in your reply.

[Kolar]

Sorry but I haven't seen you much in base, or even in game, only a lot on the forum. I don't know what you play or do so i'm not going to discount you as being inexperienced for now nor am I going to defer my opinion of you to another baser, so I guess here is all I have on you.


I believe it's something that doesn't offer a great amount of game play to basing, I.E it doesn't add anything new or fun beyond point and shoot to me. This isn't league changing shit like cramming, shark timing ect.. it's a ship that can bypass the regular defenses which a lot of people have a hard enough time holding. I don't think it can have a massive effect in league games but still it is something more to deal with as you said, chaning the outcome of games in the smallest ways knowing that there already is some justified anomosity towards this ship in any basing situation (lame.. killing in a cloaker ect... remind you of any pubing days?). Does TWLB really need to put up with that kind of shit?


With TWLB being the way it is and more generally basing going to pure time race, it's something that can, when keeping the fact that it doesn't make anything more fun or enjoyable for basing, very annoying with the scoring system. If it did offer a new level of game play and did offer a challenge to squads and groups of people then they would devlop strategies around it, right now I don't see it being that threatening.


I'm not against the idea of this being a new tactic and I don't believe we need to ban it for TWLBXX. The small size and commonality of the basing community, the tactics used for basing for which many people consider stagnant (cramming, lining ect... the strategies formed to provide the greatest ammount of defense for the flag/base) and the imitation of those tactics and strategies by high twd and low twl basing squads will keep this for becomming something normally used. I do believe it's something that can effect the games negatively in ?go base though. Do I think removing it from ?go base limits the exploration of this "tactic"???: no, it's easy enough to use the weasel as is and if someone wants to for TWL, they can if the rules allow it.

[Sarien]

Ok, I went looking for something that says if the little weasel is going to be in TWLB8, and didn't find much but I did find something that says what I think about this pretty much perfectly, by BZ.

In This Thread:
http://forums.trenchwars.org/showthr...ght=weasel+TWL
Post number 36.

And Pan, why would it be so wrong to sneak in for a 1 second touch to win the game.. they already got 14:59, they deserve the win if they can get in there for that last second. It's like pulling your goalie. It's not like it's a super BS trick that gets you 10 minutes. And your team would be dumb to not be looking for it.

Again, cutting shit out that doesn't expressly harm the intent of the game, helps cause it to stagnate. That's how things have always worked in defined rules and set play games. The more restrictions you have, the more it becomes the same old thing, over and over.

[Stabwound]

Stabwound:
Naturally, the who am I bit. I have no place writing that, even though I'm right. I compared the pub situation to point out that even despite the fact you have your elitist mentality, you neglect the point that pub terrs adjust to the situation, because they have to, and do it against greater numbers. I'm just some nobody to you, if that answers your question. I've just never minded being a nobody. Especially if being a somebody turns people into a guy like you.

When I asked who you were, I didn't mean to insult you. I wanted to know if you are using an alias or something on these boards because I've never seen you in the game under that name. Of course I am going to question your credibility on the issue if I don't know who you are. Yes, it is stupid to compare defending against weasels in pubs to defending against weasels in 8vs8 games. In pub you have an unlimited number of players and usually 5+ javelins that have X-radar.

[Sarien]

My credibility on the issue is the content of my message.
You probably have seen my name before, just not noticed it.
It's stupid to try to compare 8v8 basing to pub basing as a whole, yes.
But if it is so completely unlike 8vs8 basing why is it that people take new techniques they want to practice, do it in pubs under an alias, then perfect it in ?go base and/or private arenas? That is to say, why is a pub terrier looking out for ship 6 any different than one looking out for ship 6 in 8vs8? Because he's already got a fuckload of stuff to do? I can see that it is an extra burden to the terrier, but I'm sure with the speed terrier players have to think and react, watching for either a one tile ship, or a green arena ship change message, is doable. Read the my post right above your last one. The main difference is, that ?go base people that play terr have had the luxury while there of not really needing to look out for ship 6 until the ship size was changed there, so they're out of practice, would be my guess.

As a seperate bit, since it's been asked of me and called into question:
I used to play some in ?go base, but I don't really anymore. I just don't like to deal with about 80% of the kind of people i've seen there. People that I can only describe as being elitist snobby pricks that like to bitch lots when any single thing goes even slightly wrong, even temporarily. There are several people that don't act like that, and those people I admit are really fun to play with. But I have little desire to deal with the people that do act that way, and the elitist attitudes that too many of them have shoved up their ass. That isn't how I have fun. The good guys though, I'd play with most any time.

In pubs there are lots of idiots that talk big and insult and complain, sure. But there is a more relaxed atmosphere, I don't get the general feeling in a pub that if I get outplayed by someone, the guys on my team will complain as if I'd just stapled their nuts to a barstool.

[Kolar]

For credibility I think Stab is refering to your knowledge and experience in basing. If you want someone to listen to your opinion and have someone take something away from it, then you need to have some kind of voice and experience in the comunity. You wouldn't try discussing politics or religion without first having some extended knowledge within the forum of discussion and second extended knowledge about the topic, experience or some kind of education. This is very much inturpretable to specific people but from your post insulting the arena and from other things, I personally would say you lack a great deal of experience and knowledge on this subject. That's my opinion and saying more dirrectly to me or indirrectly won't help change my opinion on here


Fist: Having the weasel currently as it is doesn't make ?go base more fun, we know this from the number of games killed and disrupted by caps using this, this also can be compared to caps throwing out the spiders and changing in all javs; it isn't basing. That's confined to ?go base and has nothing to do with TWD or TWL.


Second: if the issue does bleed into TWL and TWD (I don't think it will be a problem, read my 4th paragraph) then it will only cause alot flamming on the forums and only damage the leagues. Whether it would effect the outcome of games or be effective is not the case here, it would be something more for people "bitch and complain about", I don't think TWL needs more of that.


Third: I don't think we need to ban the ship or change it for TWL. The comunity will kill the ability for the ship to be effective. Knowing and believe this point makes the entire subject moot, so I don't think we need to go any further, if you want to continue making ?go base more fun which this thread is about then remove it.

[SpiderMage]

Having weasels in ?go base never made it less fun. It was pretty cool to lose to the other team when they had someone switch to weasel and then blow our terr so it could sneak in because we were like "wtf just happened?!?!" When all of a sudden the flag changed and they got their last few seconds to win.

Besides, weasels are barely used anyway, so stop bitching.

I bet one day, so many people are going to have bitched that all ships will be banned and then people will bitch about only having spec to play in.

EDIT:
And technically, though I wasn't here when this game or zone was created but wasn't the levi and all other ships included when the game was first made, when the concept of basing was first made, ie the pubs, where the object of the game is to get the flag and keep the base, which would be basing as definition. So actually, removing even more ships would take out the variety of basing. The heavy artillary has already been removed, now you want to get rid of the assassin, what's next...? How about we get rid of Warbirds since they are meant for being out in the open more than they are in base... the lanc too... javs next because they can take out the entire enemy team in one hit... sharks too because of their mines and repels, because that's not basing either, being able to repel shots, you're supposed to just cram cram cram and not give them a time to shoot.

Bottom line is, you guys don't like having to worry about the weasel, so instead of being ready for the possiblity, you just want to ban it to get it out of the way. That's like removing sniper rifles from every FPS, since you can't see them when they kill you, get rid of them since y'know, it's only fair.

[Kolar]

Having weasels in ?go base never made it less fun. It was pretty cool to lose to the other team when they had someone switch to weasel and then blow our terr so it could sneak in because we were like "wtf just happened?!?!" When all of a sudden the flag changed and they got their last few seconds to win.

Besides, weasels are barely used anyway, so stop bitching.

I bet one day, so many people are going to have bitched that all ships will be banned and then people will bitch about only having spec to play in.

EDIT:
And technically, though I wasn't here when this game or zone was created but wasn't the levi and all other ships included when the game was first made, when the concept of basing was first made, ie the pubs, where the object of the game is to get the flag and keep the base, which would be basing as definition. So actually, removing even more ships would take out the variety of basing. The heavy artillary has already been removed, now you want to get rid of the assassin, what's next...? How about we get rid of Warbirds since they are meant for being out in the open more than they are in base... the lanc too... javs next because they can take out the entire enemy team in one hit... sharks too because of their mines and repels, because that's not basing either, being able to repel shots, you're supposed to just cram cram cram and not give them a time to shoot.

Bottom line is, you guys don't like having to worry about the weasel, so instead of being ready for the possiblity, you just want to ban it to get it out of the way. That's like removing sniper rifles from every FPS, since you can't see them when they kill you, get rid of them since y'know, it's only fair.

It's your opinion that having the weasel in go base makes it better. The general basing population doesn't find it fun and your opinion can be found as inexperienced because of the length, exposure and paticipation in basing.

We're not bitching, we're talking about how the weasel effects ?go base, i'm stating that ?go base is one of the main places to test new tactics yet this one seems to be detromential to the game play as a whole. I'm asking that this be looked at as a new and potentially disruptive choice to the arena's enjoyment (do I have to keep reminding people that this is a game??) not to TWD, TWL but to the intent to sit on your ass and play a fucking game.

In a real TWBD game or twl game do I think this is something that would be used or would be effective knowing the level of skill and focus? NO. Stop juding my opinion to be based on all levels of related game play, pub-?go base-twlb. I am only intrested in disscussing basing on this thread within the confines of a non-strategic, relaxed and devloping ?go base arena. If you can't do that then you don't deserve to have a voice on this subject as you're ignoring the intent of this forum and quite frankly the meaning of a forum.

[Stabwound]

The main problem with the mini-weasel: The option for 1-square sized ships came late and was programmed while Continuum was around, not Subspace. The holes in the base were never intented to be entrences for ships, and letting the little weasel go through those totally defeats the purpose of the 3-level base (tube, midbase, flagroom) because the weasel can go straight from outside to the flagroom.

[Sarien]

I don't understand the reasoning behind the "things must always stay the same" attitude.
But for that specific issue, instead of thinking of a solution for an exact "problem" if people are absolutely commited to keeping the base divvied up the same way, just fill in the block holes in the flagroom that lead to outside the base.

Again, I don't see the need for it, when the terrier can watch X, but if the direct entrances are a problem, fix the entrances, not ban the ship.

[SpiderMage]

It's your opinion that having the weasel in go base makes it better. The general basing population doesn't find it fun and your opinion can be found as inexperienced because of the length, exposure and paticipation in basing.

We're not bitching, we're talking about how the weasel effects ?go base, i'm stating that ?go base is one of the main places to test new tactics yet this one seems to be detromential to the game play as a whole. I'm asking that this be looked at as a new and potentially disruptive choice to the arena's enjoyment (do I have to keep reminding people that this is a game??) not to TWD, TWL but to the intent to sit on your ass and play a fucking game.

In a real TWBD game or twl game do I think this is something that would be used or would be effective knowing the level of skill and focus? NO. Stop juding my opinion to be based on all levels of related game play, pub-?go base-twlb. I am only intrested in disscussing basing on this thread within the confines of a non-strategic, relaxed and devloping ?go base arena. If you can't do that then you don't deserve to have a voice on this subject as you're ignoring the intent of this forum and quite frankly the meaning of a forum.

I never said it made it better, I said it never made it less fun. 've played in the relaxed enviornment of ?go base and I don't think weasel disrupts it at all. It doesn't happen often enough, and like someone brought up, if the entire team goes to all javs instead of spiders, that's the fault and idiocy of the team and shouldn't be blamed on the one person who went weasel. Weasels are not only easy enough to take care of with one terr, but also aren't much for grabbing the flag for any long lengths of time. If a game is won by weasel, why do people bitch so much about the weasel instead of bitching at the terr who had the power to kill it? It keeps getting said that the holes aren't fair because only a weasel can go through them and can bypass the base. Well, unless the weasel attaches, it still has to venture the length of the base, though outside rather than inside but by the time it gets there, the game could either be already won, or his team already beaten down and having to come back thus giving the terr a chance to catch him.

[Kolar]

Then again, if it doesn't do either help or hinder, in your opinion, why not attempt to devlop its abilities into something useful? I'm sorry to say it, but like Sarien I haven't seen you before save on this forum so I don't know how you can judge the frequency and effect the specific abilities this ship has on ?go base. Don't take it as an attack, but I still think to understand the league and how everything works in basing, some knowledge beyond what the twl forum says and what speccing in publics (which I seems to be doing a hell of a lot of lately) can give you.

[SpiderMage]

Then again, if it doesn't do either help or hinder, in your opinion, why not attempt to devlop its abilities into something useful? I'm sorry to say it, but like Sarien I haven't seen you before save on this forum so I don't know how you can judge the frequency and effect the specific abilities this ship has on ?go base. Don't take it as an attack, but I still think to understand the league and how everything works in basing, some knowledge beyond what the twl forum says and what speccing in publics (which I seems to be doing a hell of a lot of lately) can give you.

Because, unfortunately, the major populace of TW would be "gtfo stfu newb" if you attempted to tell them or show them that a weasel can be effective, especially if you have indeed made it effective.