Spider limitations? What a backwards irrelevent rule

[froedrick]

Originally posted by wadi
it's supposed to be the flexible league

Limiting the number of a certain ship you use makes it flexible?

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by froedrick
Limiting the number of a certain ship you use makes it flexible?

wadi argues that 5 spid strat FORCES (in a non-rule way) the other team to also counter with 5 spid.

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by SuperMet
Muahahaha NOCKM is now Spastic's. Notice how once we got a jav in NOCKM when Pure helped establish the 4 spider rule. Although for 4 spider Spastic will probably play Zyclon in the bird. He's a God in the birdie.

Sure there are reasons against the 4 spider rule. Many people here want to see drastic changes like a map or settings changes. I disagree though. We all love the basing game we have today and we can't just suddenly scrap it. That would change the entire dynamics and strategy that has already been established. I don't think we want to change from that so fast.

We must first crawl before we can walk or run. That means trying these small changes like 4 spiders, shipchanges, etc. Let's see how these changes would affect basing today, for better or worse. Sure, perhaps maybe the map/settings change might be better in the future, or maybe not. However, we should first see how we can tweak it a little before changing the entire face of basing as we know it.

The current basing game is 1) a lot less fun than it could be 2) current map has reached or is close to reaching it's full potential 3) the fact that rarely does any TWL team use other ships besides spids goes to show a weakness in the leagues ship diversity. With all the suggestions / complaints it's pretty clear that SOMETHING has to be changed. All I'm espousing is that a setting change or map change is the better, long-term solution to making basing more fun, and allowing the javs and wbs and other ships to perhaps be used more often (and not FORCED to be used). You can't use a bandaid on a deep laceration. In the same way you can't come up with minor changes and think that basing is getting better.

[SuperMet]

Originally posted by Sufficient
The current basing game is 1) a lot less fun than it could be 2) current map has reached or is close to reaching it's full potential 3) the fact that rarely does any TWL team use other ships besides spids goes to show a weakness in the leagues ship diversity. With all the suggestions / complaints it's pretty clear that SOMETHING has to be changed. All I'm espousing is that a setting change or map change is the better, long-term solution to making basing more fun, and allowing the javs and wbs and other ships to perhaps be used more often (and not FORCED to be used). You can't use a bandaid on a deep laceration. In the same way you can't come up with minor changes and think that basing is getting better.

Your diagnosis of the basing situation is full of assertions and opinionated beliefs. Therefore, I believe that you are at times being too radical and not as open-minded about today's changes.

First, about the current basing game being fun. I think the last TWL season was evidence of the fact that basing has become much more popular and more people are having fun with basing. It used to be a few exclusive squads, now there are more competitive squads playing. The game as being fun is a divided issue.

Second, the current basing map. You think we need a better long-term solution, and that 4 spider limit is a band-aid on a deep laceration. That's only your DIAGNOSIS on the basing situation; we haven't seen the whole problem yet. In response, I think the map change is very premature. We shouldn't try an open heart transplant without first undergoing a few tests, trying different medicine, and seeing the results.

I think you have your mind set so much on a map change that you haven't been open-minded about possible changes. Not everybody has the assertions/opinions as you do. Be patient about this; first try small things out for changes and see how it goes before trying something drastic.

[Cig Smoke]

Hey im all for the 4-spider limit and its already in TWD as a test, so ima test it out and see how it goes, although i think it gives the teams w/ the best jav/wb a really big i mean HUGE advantage over others, sometimes making it almost like 7v8.

[Mattey]

Anybody else think it's funny that now that Spastic has players that are talented in ships other than Terr/Spider/Shark, they create a rule that makes jav/wb mandatory?

[wadi]

Originally posted by Mattey
Anybody else think it's funny that now that Spastic has players that are talented in ships other than Terr/Spider/Shark, they create a rule that makes jav/wb mandatory?

Aside from nockm, who joined after the rule was implemented, who the fuck do they have in jav/warbird?

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by SuperMet
Your diagnosis of the basing situation is full of assertions and opinionated beliefs. Therefore, I believe that you are at times being too radical and not as open-minded about today's changes.

First, about the current basing game being fun. I think the last TWL season was evidence of the fact that basing has become much more popular and more people are having fun with basing. It used to be a few exclusive squads, now there are more competitive squads playing. The game as being fun is a divided issue.

Second, the current basing map. You think we need a better long-term solution, and that 4 spider limit is a band-aid on a deep laceration. That's only your DIAGNOSIS on the basing situation; we haven't seen the whole problem yet. In response, I think the map change is very premature. We shouldn't try an open heart transplant without first undergoing a few tests, trying different medicine, and seeing the results.

I think you have your mind set so much on a map change that you haven't been open-minded about possible changes. Not everybody has the assertions/opinions as you do. Be patient about this; first try small things out for changes and see how it goes before trying something drastic.

First the idea of fun. Seems like EVERYONE says that basing is NOT as fun as it was in the past. And I really do mean a good majority of the basing population. I have not heard of anyone say that they consider the current basing rules and regulations to be the most fun ... no one, or close to no one says that. I believe that even YOU believe that basing is not as fun as it was before and can be even MORE fun if make changes. Basing is also not as vibrately alive as you think it is. Just look at how many basing squads were in TWL and how many "survived" after TWL. There are even talks of reducing the size of TWL squads down from 16 to 12. Do you call that a healthy, vibrant league? I'd call the status at "medicore" at best.

Secondly, there is a distinct difference btwn a minor alteration to the basing map and a major alteration. One cannot say that the feedback we get on minor changes will be the same as we get from major changes in the map. We have been trying small alterations in maps and such. So far, there has been negative feedback on that front. BUT, one cannot say thus, any larger changes will ALSO be negative. We have not truly tried any major changes to the map.

Here are some question I'd like you to directly answer bc I keep on putting these pts out but you don't address them:

1) How is not opening up the roof not helping basing become more fun and more skill based?
2) Ppl say that the lag created by the 5 spid cram is unfair ... so why do we still keep 1 entrance? ... I'd like Crvn to answer this too.
3) I know that we will see the result of this 4 spid limit, but what makes you think that every team will not play 4 spid 1 jav in TWL?
4) You have not addressed the issue of the 4 spid max being biased.
5) You also have not replied about the areas of the map that are not used at all.

I might have more questions for you later. And although you think I am closed minded about the options we have, I am indeed willing to try out the 4 spid ... but are YOU willing to try out setting changes or major basing changes?

[RabbitRapist]

forcing a team to use 4 spiders 100% is worse than them half having to in order to win...

4 SPID LIMIT BLOWS GOATS

remove it, kthnx

-RR

[wadi]

Originally posted by Sufficient

1) How is not opening up the roof not helping basing become more fun and more skill based?
2) Ppl say that the lag created by the 5 spid cram is unfair ... so why do we still keep 1 entrance? ... I'd like Crvn to answer this too.
3) I know that we will see the result of this 4 spid limit, but what makes you think that every team will not play 4 spid 1 jav in TWL?
4) You have not addressed the issue of the 4 spid max being biased.
5) You also have not replied about the areas of the map that are not used at all.

1.) putting an entrance on the roof.. Come on, this is laughable. The reason why no one's responded is because we've never really thought you were serious about this suggestion. On the one hand it totally removes the progressive defense that the base currently has (outside base, main tube/side tubes, lower base, fr), skipping straight to entrance defense. On the other, think about how you'd get from the spawn to the fr, infact draw a line. Now put an entrance on the roof. Does your line ever touch the roof? No. Why do you think people yell at javs and birds who go to the roof? It's not because it's hard to do damage from there, it's because it takes for FUCKING EVER to get there. And, you can look way way back for this, TW basing has never had a second or third entrance. It's part of TW basing; one way in, one flag, end of story.
2.)see previous. I don't agree with crven that the lag created by a packed entrance is unfair. I think that the .lvz used in twl/d might be more likely responsible for the observed lag spike in those arenas, as it extends to more situations than just the cram.
3.) Because not all squads, have you've said, have a good base jav, but most have at least a competent person in basebird. Also, the roles of the basebird and the base jav differ greatly, (if I have to explain this to you, you shouldn't be posting here in the first place) although there main objective is arguably the same (kill the terrier quick). There may come a time when jav vs bird is not a grey area, but right now it's not cut and dry. I can definetly see Pallies playing a basebird, or grapevine, or melee, or even mambo or spastic. In any case though, number of ships used in a 1-2-4-1 line up: 4, number of ships used in a 1-2-5 lineup: 3. That's a win for diversity in my book.
4.) Biased against who? To teams with only good spiders? That's a losing argument. You're telling me, that it's unfair to the "less" flexible, less prepared squad, with thinner ship depth, and less talent in multiple ships? I thought basing was about fielding players who could play more than one ship. Fuck, making squads learn to play terr and shark is biased against people who only play warbird, so lets make it so they don't lose out from that. Oh, and lets get rid of the base, since it's biased against people who can't manuever through blocks, and the flag since it's biased against people who can't hold the flag but still have 2-1 records. The only thing that's really important is aiming and firing. ?go deathmatch.
5.) I disagree with your assesment of the lower base. Thinking as a terrier on offense, I can't think of a single feature of the lower base I don't use, or do not consider as an escape options when piloting. Mid ears are a good example of a place to run to if you're getting chased and need to string the defenders out away from the entrance. If you're talking about pub artifacts below the main tube, some of them are a necessity associated with the time penalty for taking a side tube but you might be able to change something for the better there.

[Cig Smoke]

I think being unfair to the "less" flexible and unprepared squad is being unfair to over 50% of the squads that will make TWL. The truth is there isnt 50% of squads who have a Valid jav, or even a valid wb. Sure u can get a wb who goes around and shoots a guy here and there, but he's really no factor in the match. When u face someone like Spastic who has nockm in jav or Zyclon (rite?) in wb then its basicaly like 8v7 bc they will make a differnce in them ships. I think that if those teams are so flexible and prepared they can win w/ whatever lineup they want, its still no use forcing the other majarity of the squads to do something that dont benafit them. 5 Spiders is a stratagy, no one is forcing theo ther to play 5 spiders, sure it helpz but a good jav can do better then an extra spider, in pallies and spastic's case they got probably the 2 best javs, im sure tehre jav will make a bigger impact then that final spider. Like u said if u got depth and are flexible u should be able to field a jav who is capable of producing more then a spider. Im all for testing it, but just by looking at basic facts im voting against it. I'd much rather lose a base game bc there 5th spider was better then ours, then lose a base game to a laggy jav/wb who rockets through everything and kills the terr, or lose bc the oponents jav is 100 times better then my jav.

For the record mattey (i know u dont read my posts but someoen eles can say it) They had Zyclon who they said is a good basebird, and Aen|ma (misspell?) b4 the rule came out and b4 nockm joind them.

[CrvenBan]

Originally posted by Sufficient
2) Ppl say that the lag created by the 5 spid cram is unfair ... so why do we still keep 1 entrance? ... I'd like Crvn to answer this too.

Lets say for the sake of argument that we're agreeing that lag created is indeed unfair. So you would need a solution to that problem. Out of all things suggested, ie 4 spid limit, 2 entrances, removal of nubs, there are few that are not too drastic in such way that they wouldn't change basing as it is today.
Now the question is, do you want a different type of basing or not ?
If no, then easiest solution to make lag less of a problem would be removal of nubs (however this might create other problems and testing is required).
If yes, then 2 entrances or 4 spids or whatever should be taken into consideration (again, testing is important).
Some people, like myself, wouldn't mind either. Some other people, would be against one and for the other solution, but that's for ppl in charge to test.


So, you could get:
-75+ % of basing population is against any changes in current map
and 45+ % is against ship limitations - possible solution: 4 spid limit

-70+ % of basing population is against big changes in map, 80+ % is against ship limitations - possible solution: remove nubs

-40+ % of basing population is against big changes in map, 80+ % is against ship limitations - possible solution: 2 entrances


..and so forth.

[Copy!?!]

Make basing 6v6. I myself like 6v6 flagroom fights much more rather than 8v8 with mines everywhere and all blowing up in that little space causing at least on my screen something like lag or FPS drop w/e. Also 6v6 would help to brake cram because squads that now do 2 sharks 5 spids would go 1 shark 4 spids but when shark is dead cram can be broken easily.

[froedrick]

Wadi, The fact that the teams without the depth or the skill to play anything other than 5 spids.. That will make a lot more games even more boring. Think about it. How many bad teams were in twlb and were blowouts last year? Quite a few am I right. Well now when you force the teams who are mediocre even with 5 spids, what happens then. Do we have half a league shitty and the other half the competitors?

[Mattey]

Originally posted by Cig Smoke

For the record mattey (i know u dont read my posts but someoen eles can say it) They had Zyclon who they said is a good basebird, and Aen|ma (misspell?) b4 the rule came out and b4 nockm joind them.

Anybody else think it's funny that now that Spastic has players that are talented in ships other than Terr/Spider/Shark, they create a rule that makes jav/wb mandatory?





Where did I say that their talent had to be new recruits? I'm saying that their current team is so much better at utilizing jav and warbird than their team of a year ago, and Spastic pretty much makes the rules for TWLB TWBD, and there is no way they would have made this rule last year. I am calling shenanigans.