Spider limitations? What a backwards irrelevent rule

[Cig Smoke]

This is what u posted earlier after SUpermet's reply to me.


Anybody else think it's funny that NOW Spastic has players that are talented in ships other than Terr/Spider/Shark, they create a rule that makes jav/wb mandatory?


It came rite after Supermet commented on NOCKM joining Spastic. That is what it seemed u meant, if it isnt then it was a misunderstanding. I thought u meant since NOCKM join'd they made the rule, but i agree it is weird that the rule changed since they have a slight advantage over alot of squads w/ ae and nockm javing or zyclon wbing.

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by wadi
1.) putting an entrance on the roof.. Come on, this is laughable. The reason why no one's responded is because we've never really thought you were serious about this suggestion. On the one hand it totally removes the progressive defense that the base currently has (outside base, main tube/side tubes, lower base, fr), skipping straight to entrance defense. On the other, think about how you'd get from the spawn to the fr, infact draw a line. Now put an entrance on the roof. Does your line ever touch the roof? No. Why do you think people yell at javs and birds who go to the roof? It's not because it's hard to do damage from there, it's because it takes for FUCKING EVER to get there. And, you can look way way back for this, TW basing has never had a second or third entrance. It's part of TW basing; one way in, one flag, end of story.
2.)see previous. I don't agree with crven that the lag created by a packed entrance is unfair. I think that the .lvz used in twl/d might be more likely responsible for the observed lag spike in those arenas, as it extends to more situations than just the cram.
3.) Because not all squads, have you've said, have a good base jav, but most have at least a competent person in basebird. Also, the roles of the basebird and the base jav differ greatly, (if I have to explain this to you, you shouldn't be posting here in the first place) although there main objective is arguably the same (kill the terrier quick). There may come a time when jav vs bird is not a grey area, but right now it's not cut and dry. I can definetly see Pallies playing a basebird, or grapevine, or melee, or even mambo or spastic. In any case though, number of ships used in a 1-2-4-1 line up: 4, number of ships used in a 1-2-5 lineup: 3. That's a win for diversity in my book.
4.) Biased against who? To teams with only good spiders? That's a losing argument. You're telling me, that it's unfair to the "less" flexible, less prepared squad, with thinner ship depth, and less talent in multiple ships? I thought basing was about fielding players who could play more than one ship. Fuck, making squads learn to play terr and shark is biased against people who only play warbird, so lets make it so they don't lose out from that. Oh, and lets get rid of the base, since it's biased against people who can't manuever through blocks, and the flag since it's biased against people who can't hold the flag but still have 2-1 records. The only thing that's really important is aiming and firing. ?go deathmatch.
5.) I disagree with your assesment of the lower base. Thinking as a terrier on offense, I can't think of a single feature of the lower base I don't use, or do not consider as an escape options when piloting. Mid ears are a good example of a place to run to if you're getting chased and need to string the defenders out away from the entrance. If you're talking about pub artifacts below the main tube, some of them are a necessity associated with the time penalty for taking a side tube but you might be able to change something for the better there.

1) Note I did NOT say put an entrance on roof ... I did say OPEN up roof (reread my question) ... meaning envelope it or something. Open roof means more opportunities from mid to FR shots for jav ... and perhaps even other ships. How is that not giving more opportnities and making basing more fun? Opening up the roof (NOT CREATING A 2nd ENTRANCE) is 1) more fun 2) requires more skills to utilize. It eliminates the need for a jav to go all the way around the entire base and still makes the jav dependent on it's terr to transport it to mid.

If you wanted to make an 2nd entrance on roof ... I still don't think IT REMOVES the progressive defense. There are definitely ways to keep intact the idea of 2 chokepts for FR. That's the beauty of a map change ... you can adjust things to a scale ... unlike the 4 spid max rule. Why are you even complaining about cramming or 5 spid when you don't even want to get rid of the root of the problem ... 1 entrance? This is how I see it ... basing is sorta one dimensional (an up down setup with defenders basically shooting down and the offessive team shooting up). We should add the elements of the roof and sides of the FR.

2) There you go Crvn ... wadi disagrees with your 5 spid lag theory.

3 and 4) This is about allowing teams to play to their best lineup ... allowing ppl to choose what to play ... you still don't really address that pt. You say "biased against those who can't meunever through blocks" ... well why the heck do you still want 1 entrance then? Seems so contridictary that you want to eliminate the cram, eliminate 5 spids, yet you don't realize the reason for the effectiveness of the cram and 5 spid is because there only IS 1 entrance. Like I said, don't tell me how my team should play ... and I won't tell you how your team should play. You may like holding a chokept with lining ... I just prefer using 5 spids cram. Our job now is to just ENCOURAGE more wbs and javs and weasels and lancs to play ... NOT FORCE them to play.

5) I can show you areas in the base where NO TWLB team has EVER touched (at least from last season). And I truly mean never ever. They aren't even feasible parts of the base.

Anyone agree that opening up roof (not adding a 2nd entrance) will make basing more fun?

[Emaho]

why don't you test boki as basing map?
It's worth a try don't you think?

[wadi]

actually no you can't show me anything in lower since you haven't played in over ten days. And well, no you can't I'm sure. Obviously you need to go back to 5th grade english if all you can do is poorly misinterpret one sentence from points 3 and 4. The fact is, anytime you make a map, set rules, change settings ANYTHING it's going to create "bias" in one way or another. The fact that that basing doesn't have a ball, makes it biased against people who like ball games. It doesn't have thors, so it's biased against people who are used to playing with thors, etc etc etc etc. But there is a point that bias goes to far, and I'm not going to rehash my five spider argument here once again, because I'm sick and fucking tired of explaining it and then having you respond without reading it. Suffice to say, the day you tell me _anything_ new about cram defense is the day I slit my wrists. And if you're going to quote me, don't cut out a whole paragraph and then try to argue from it selectively. It stands out like a sore thumb.

Froedrick, that's total BS. The most common newbie ship is warbird, you can check any pub to see that. The idea that any new basing squad would take _more_ time to train up a bird or jav (the two most popular ships in trench) to at least competent level, then it would take to train the other 7 ships is arguable, or flat out wrong. Please refer to my response to point 4 of sufficient's questions about what I think about dumbing down the league under the guise of making it more competitive.

[Cig Smoke]

Sure ur rite WB is the eziest to learn and also the Eziest to fly, but when ur in TWL, ur not up against newbies in pub. I personaly find it hard being basebird, i have troubles leading the terr which is going (seemingly) 100 mph past me. And u also have to again time urselfe through reps. I find it ezier to play the spider then the wb. Also its not how ez the ship is, sure i can go find AznTangboi01 from public 0 to play my base bird if i want to, and he mite get soem kills, but the fact remains when i go up against someone like Zyclon, or someone who is a very efficient basebird the tides turn, my newbie WB is no longer even effective. Some basebirds (the good ones) are almost like having another spider, 1 which recharges faster and has 1 hit 1 kill abilities. Same goes for jav, sure i can put myself in a base jav, i find myself atleast Decent in it, but i konw in an 8v8 game even if the other 14 guys were EXACTLY the same ppl, my team would lose to say Spastic bc NOCKM is 100 x's better then me a decent jav. Therefor giving Spastic (exagerating) 100 x's more of a benifit then my squad. WHere if i could put myself in a 5th spider, even if i was a decent spider we could still lose bc the base jav is a great jav, but it will atleast even it up, if not give the underdog somewhat of an advantage. With limiting it to 1 other ship, ur like u said giving all the squads who are established and known for basing an advantage. Most of the great base javs/wb's will want to or already are on the top basing squads. There isnt enuff talent to go to 16 or even 12 teams.


I also think putting either more wholes on roof, or like suff said opening them wider so u can hit more of base w/ a jav bomb from roof would help. Sure not be the best method of attacking, but it could make the terr warp outa the cram spot and such.

[Facetious]

I don't think basing is really evolving, Div. I pretty much just hate it now. Maybe the five-spider limitation isn't the best option, but in case nobody's noticed, very few squads are playing TWBDs, and I think it's because basing's gotten stale. Shooting red bullets at each other sucks. I'd agree with changing the map, too, though.

[Sufficient]

There are ppl who also feel similar to me wadi ... I think face, esc, froe, and cig said something that resembled an agreement. Basing CAN be a lot more fun than it is now. As for using the word "biased," I have already explained that we DO in fact need to make it LESS biased against wb and jav and other ships. As for forgetting to fully quote you, sry, I was trying to type on my 15 in monitor and look back at what you said.

There is no "dumbing down" of the league by opening up roof or by eliminating the areas of base that are not useful. To me those are legitimate improvements which you seem to not want to accept. Satisfaction with status quo doesn't make basing more fun or more skillbased. Why settle for less?

[wadi]

I'm getting damn tired of this. Cig, the problem with your scenario is that in a league setting spastic will play that fifth spider if they think there's even a SLIVER of a chance you'll come within a mile of beating them. It's TWL, it's on the line, it's the smart thing to do. We're back to 5 spid vs 5 spids.

Sufficient, you need to read everything that gets written, including the first sentence where you learn who the comments are addressed to, before responding with something way off base. On top of that, you're way off the mark if you think for one second I'm not looking for a change to the current map. You will NOT make me out to be the champion of the status quo, and you will not misinterpret healthy skepticism for outright bitterness. You have yet to produce a map that exhibits these roof and lower base changes, or even been able to point out these areas in anything beyond general terms. Most of the features in lower have common place names known to the basing community, I'm sure you can at least name these mythical useless features before you give them the axe.

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by wadi
I'm getting damn tired of this. Cig, the problem with your scenario is that in a league setting spastic will play that fifth spider if they think there's even a SLIVER of a chance you'll come within a mile of beating them. It's TWL, it's on the line, it's the smart thing to do. We're back to 5 spid vs 5 spids.

Sufficient, you need to read everything that gets written, including the first sentence where you learn who the comments are addressed to, before responding with something way off base. On top of that, you're way off the mark if you think for one second I'm not looking for a change to the current map. You will NOT make me out to be the champion of the status quo, and you will not misinterpret healthy skepticism for outright bitterness. You have yet to produce a map that exhibits these roof and lower base changes, or even been able to point out these areas in anything beyond general terms. Most of the features in lower have common place names known to the basing community, I'm sure you can at least name these mythical useless features before you give them the axe.

By the way your talkin ... you are also gettin a bit emotional (I agree I am a bit emotional too when I argue). Btw ... I do in fact read every post in a thread that I post in. First off I have no idea which post you are talkin about here:

"Sufficient, you need to read everything that gets written, including the first sentence where you learn who the comments are addressed to, before responding with something way off base."

Which post are you talkin about? And also, I thought I was allowed to address issues not directed specifically at me? Is this not a forum to different things (directed at me or not)? What did I say that was "off base"?

Wadi: "You have yet to produce a map that exhibits these roof and lower base changes, or even been able to point out these areas in anything beyond general terms. Most of the features in lower have common place names known to the basing community, I'm sure you can at least name these mythical useless features before you give them the axe."

I will see if I can come up with something in terms of a map. Unfortunately I do not know what you call 'basing features' common names'. Name me a few ... preferably features in lower base since that's where I'd like to change things.

[Epinephrine]

I like 5 spider games, I have a lot of fun playing in them.

Diso elimated my squad from the TWL Semi-Finals last season using a 4 spider lineup while we used 5.

-Epi

[Cig Smoke]

Epi speeks truth!

Also wadi, is there really a difference that a squad lets say DISO vs Spastic. Diso uses 5 spiders, "forcing" Spastic to use 5, isnt it the same exact thing ur doing by actualy FORCING everyone to use 4 spiders now? Outa 16 squads, ur gonna have about 2-3 using a wb. the rest will be 4 spider 1 jav. Not only are u actualy forcing them to do this, ur making things more unfair. Atleast 5 spid v 5 spid we know the best team usualy wins. When it comes down to having to play a jav, he can make the difference in the match (winning or losing). Also like Epi said, diso played NOCKM in jav w/ 4 spiders vs Elusive's 5 spiders last season, elusive u can argue had the best spiders in last TWLB, yet Diso won bc the jav is effective killing in bunches, especialy if u have a good jav. Dont force everyone to use a jav, especialy when outa 16 teams, there is about 2-4 GREAT javs, and the rest have mediocre, and some have really bad.

Also u keep saying the world basing cup thingy voted on it and luved it. Well i suppose so being its like an all-star game, u have 4 GREAT spiders usualy, a great terr, and usualy each country has atleast 1 jav who is compitent of doin the job. In squads sometimes them javs have to Terr, or shark.

As someone said b4, the problem w/ the cram is the sharks, 3 reps each, and with enuff practice 2 sharks can make it almost unbreakable. It isnt the 5 spiders, bc w/o the rep they die. Opening the roof a little is better then a spider limit, also if u do a spider limit, the cloaker should be small like in pub and im not much of a guy to like change, i usualy like the old traditional stuff, but if we find a map which makes it still fun and interesting w/o goin out on the limb im all for it. I still find basing fun even 5v5 (spid), If u have 2 pretty equal team both using 5 spiders its still fun. Sure when u have a Spastic vs Puritanical it sucks, but it will still suck w/ 4 spiders.

[Stabwound]

Originally posted by Cig Smoke
also if u do a spider limit, the cloaker should be small like in pub

That would be pointless because the bots now announce shipchanges to the arena. Can't catch anyone offguard with a cloaker anymore.

[Cig Smoke]

Ur rite i forgot about that, but even good cloakers (there aer elite cloakers) like gerbil and such can get a terr w/ his x-radar on, spiders and all cant see it + its an extra rep, but overall ur rite.

[Epinephrine]

Cig is right... Div is basically going to be like the only guy who will chance a wb in any game but the ez blowout games (well him and a few other guys on Pallies I guess), and hey... div doesn't like the idea.

4-Spider limit is basically just forcing people to use a jav, and uh.. if you don't have a TOP jav all that happens is you constantly get tked thus making basing not fun at all.

-Epi

[froedrick]

Exactly how I feel.