Points Race

[froedrick]

so then you can be in the tube.. or the sides and not get specced for hiding.. But if you were to go back down you could be specced.

[Cig Smoke]

Well u'd havta have certain rules, u wouldnt want a terr running from the enemy fire that mite die, or warp where his port was set behind it and get speced. Maybe not have the bot do nething about it, but have a line so the Ref/op's can have a place to rule if they are hiding or not. If ther is a way for the bot to do it, that'd be sweet, but it'd havta almost understand the situation.

[Nethila]

this is the reason why you need more than one ref during the match

ever wonder why there are always multi refs in RL hockey, soccer, football, bball, etc.. so a second opinion can be there.

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by Nethila
this is the reason why you need more than one ref during the match

ever wonder why there are always multi refs in RL hockey, soccer, football, bball, etc.. so a second opinion can be there.

Prob not possible. That's why the race to pts or time system (race to 15 min) would basically eliminate the pros of hiding.

[Cig Smoke]

Ur rite suff, but these ideas arent well thought out. They are things that maybe we go with next season. Rite now we got bigger problems like the 4 spid rule, and map change and alll that shiz in basing, and that is excluding LJ/LD yet.

I also think 2 reff's would be of great help. Its done in DSB leagues. They have 2 ref's per game. If TW staff dont ahve enuff ppl to ref, then hire ppl JUST to ref like in other zones. (aka Cig smoke <RF> or something) im sure there are tons of volunteers who would ref on a daily basis. U could probably get 3 refs per match. But if u had 2, then u have opinions of 2 ppl, discusion and if someone is hiding its bound that 1 of the 2 reffs will notice it. It never was really a problem for how many seasons now. I dont think its that big of a problem now. And like i said b4, i dont think its to hard to see if a team is full out attacking or if they are milking it till the end.

[geekbot]

For those of you who think things are happening "too fast"- 4 spiders is NOT in TWL, it's being tested in TWD. Points race is not in TWL or TWD, it's just for fun in ?go base. R2 doesn't even have the bugs worked out yet. Only thing that is happening is Guano and PL giving us more stuff to play with.

Anyway, I suggested to add a 15k and 5k warning like the 5 minute and 1 minute warning in timed games. The points race games sometimes end abruptly when you don't even realize the games near the end.

Freq1 with 15k left. Score is 65021-50938.
Freq1 with 5k left. Score is 75001-73468.

[Pure_Luck]

good idea geek.

[Epinephrine]

TWL specific refs have been denied to TWL ever since TWL lost it's own zone and moved to Trench Wars. Of the TWL Staff, there are simply not enough people to have multiple refs in a game, it's hard enough getting one host to every game.

I don't see how a ref could accurately call something as subjective as hiding, when everyone has a somewhat different definition of it. What if you're fighting, but not fighting 'very hard'? Is that hiding? At what point does it become hiding? Sure in some cases, it will surely look like 'hiding' but MOST cases it's something inbetween, and if people know they are being punished for 'hiding' they will always toe the line and do something inbetween. How then do you decide what is what, and have it accurate and fair and consistant over the entire season and playoffs?

What if the ref is on one team, and he has a good reason to want another team to lose, and he calls 'hiding' to end the game? Even if it was a fair call would it ever be percieved as such? It is often impossible for TWL Ops to be around to watch all games because of the many things going on, and because sometimes things happen, then they stop happening. As well, TWL Ops are on squads too. Should TWL Ops be banned from playing in the league? They're not paid, so I don't see why. Then again we have more problems with views of bias.

Even if all refs/ops were squadless, what if they just plain didn't like someone on some team (or were at least percieved to be such) and called hiding against that team?

As I've said every ref has a different definition of what hiding is. Add onto that the fact that refs are TW Staff, and who is on the staff changes daily. The necessary professional training required to get everyone on the same page is just impossible, especially in a situation where the refs are in constant flux, where no one is getting paid to do a good job, and where your only method of communication is the internet with no really good method to ensure compliance to standards. Not to mention you can't exactly fire the refs because there simply aren't enough of them around.

Sure we can have 5-6 dedicated basing refs which may work in an ideal enviroment, but because of scheduling constraints you'd never have enough refs. Even then, there would be disagreements. Last season even between the TWL Ops there was a huge disagreement between what was and what wasn't hiding. Having refs hold this power is a huge mistake. Refs cannot decide on hiding.

Because of that, there should be no rule against hiding, and I think fundamentally changing the game's scoring system to make hiding pointless is a step in the right direction.

Now let's just get rid of those flag dings too

-Epi

[Sufficient]

I agree Cig that it's best to go about changing things slowly so we can see if these changes are actually better. Just saying that maybe we pts race or time race might be something to look out for in the future.

And if I were a ref, I would rather have the bot decide who won ... not me, being all subjective with my own squad influences and ppl I don't like. I don't think the players in TW have the maturity to make unbiased, reasonable decisions. Better to let the bot decide through whatever means (pt race or time race or whatever). There will always be ppl who are going to be mad about subjective 'hiding' decisions. If we can get rid of that ... why don't we?

[Adamant]

Originally posted by Fit of Rage
Personally, I think that that the system we have right now is fine.

[Dim]

I've never actually played ?go base, but in theory and on paper, it sounds like a great idea.

[Nethila]

Originally posted by Epinephrine
Now let's just get rid of those flag dings too

amen

[wadi]

You can pry the flag dings out of my cold dead hands bitch! :P No seriosuly, am I the only one who anticipates those suckers and dives for the flag in an fr fight?

The sub-8 TWBD is a problem that would need to be addressed, but I can't see a good way to do it without reinserting the hiding problem.

I'm not a big fan of the change to point race, but I can definetly understand why it would be implemented in TWLB. It's never good to have a grey area in the rules, and this is a biggie that affected more than one game last season. I have my doubts about how it will effect the pace of the game, but I'm willing to try it out for a while, as on paper it would appear to be a good solution to a current problem.

[Cig Smoke]

Like Froe said, put a line across the map like in JD arenas. Make the bot recognize whats happening. Or even a 1/2 witted ref can realize if someone is across the line fighting or sitting there "milking" the time.

Just curious, why cant ppl be hired just to ref? is it something dock/priitk decided? or is it just that the TWL ops think our staff can handle it? Im not saying ot go recruit 20 refs to just ref, but i think taht we got a fair amount of <ER>/Mod who can host it to get almost 2 refs a game. And if u really wanted to jsut stick w/ staff members, let some <ZH>'s do it. Im sure there'd be some of them who would volunteer for it. Even if we do poitns race or whatever we do, 2 refs per game is always a nice feature.

Wadi, there are flag timers, they count down when the flag is gonna ding. Thats the main weapon in DSB leagues. Of course probably 95% of TW basing dont use one or have one, but they are around.

I never found it hard to point out if someone is hidding, maybe thats bc i have my own definition of it, but rules can be changed alot ezier then changing points and time and this and that. U can put into the rules what exactly hiding is. Those things can be pointed out and enforced. I dont see a HUGE problem w/ the current way basing goes, and i hate to see so many changes/tests in 1 offseason. Last season went fairly well, and many ppl said b4. There is no reason to change TWLB around in a 180. Change a few things, make it a little better, but dont risk ruining the whole thing.

Things that work in .?go base dont always work in TWLB and so on. There is always a consistance of great players found in .?go base. The teams are usualy never even. Or u have a dum cap who does dum lineup or something. In TWLB u wont have this stuff. A squad consisists of so many ppl that can do so many things. U dont always have 20 versatile basers. Just like the 4 spid limit in TWBD. Its different, alot of 7v7 games, u can play 4 spiders then and its no notice to the rule. U also have ship changes to change ur player. U have so many different things in TWD then TWLB. Its hard to test an idea on soemthing different.

And geek i realize the 4 spid limit and this isnt in TWL yet, but its up for testing for TWL. I dont even think its needed for THIS TWL. I by all means will try it out, and see how it goes. If it changes my opinion i will also vote FOR IT to stay in TWL. But i still believe it should come NEXT season. Only make 1 huge change per season, and i feel that the 4 spid limit is gonna be the huge change.

[Cpt.Guano!]

Cig, holding back / refusing to fight is alot harder to gauge in basing than it is in a jav duel. The type of refusing to fight that we are talking about isnt running around in spawn arena but rather the following case:

There is about 3 minutes left in the game. The scores are quite close, maybe a 10 - 20k difference. The team that is ahead loses the flag room and the other team sets up to defend and get some flag kill points. The winning team figuring that the time is running out does a half hearted attempt to take the flag room back. Alot of the times the terr will simply suicide and die before getting into the flag room and / or spiders will attack but hang farther back than they usually would. So they basically wait for the time to run out and dont give the other team enough kills to catch up. This type of holding back is really hard to detect... Where do you draw the line? - no pun intended :P. Its really hard to accuse someone of not attacking when they "kinda" are... This was a big grey area in a couple twlb matches last season. By switching to a point race, flag time or something else that places alot more emphasis on maintaining the flag, situations such as this will most likely be eliminated.