TWL Season 25 Announcement

[Zeebu]

There's a couple things we're trying to fix schedule overruns while maintaining a timeline thats been accessible to the majority of our players.

We've implemented shorter scheduled round times to reduce potential downtime and get the weekend wrapped as early as possible. This allows us to squeeze an additional round in each week without completely excluding our Euro (or NA Pacific) playerbase. We are avoiding the 3 extra rounds each week that this last season used because it became harder to control timing-wise and led to some drastically late games.

Speaking just based on random sampling of twdt.trenchwars.com, the longest warbird/jav matches typically take around 20 minutes of playtime and base can of course take 30 minutes. These generally fit into our time slots, and a shortened pre-match adding time will help even more. That is definitely something we are looking to implement this season.

With the structure of our matches not being a fixed timeline, it's impossible to schedule perfectly. This is why we continue to schedule base last, as it is the most likely to run late. I don't see merit in stretching the schedule to reflect worst-case scenarios in matches. It's better to start each round 5 minutes later than scheduled rather than building in extra downtime and forcing the last rounds to start 30 minutes later than the proposed schedule.

i wasnt asking for a worst case to be represented, I was honestly only asking to put out a schedule that you think has the greatest chance to be followed accurately. If you think you can maintain this schedule and only start each round around 5 minutes late, that pushes the end of day schedule by only 30 minutes or so, not bad at all. The last game of the day occasionally being advertised 30 minutes after the scheduled time is on the edge of acceptability, but still OK. If every single week finds that last LB game starting behind schedule, you have a bad schedule.

Maybe I'm just overly pessimistic, but rather than a schedule, i think the way its set up right now will equate to nothing more than a game order list for that week.

Whether having a realistic schedule actually matters is debatable. Players that only show up right before a scheduled match will be the only ones overly affected, and only in the sense they'll have to wait longer than anticipated.

Right now, I'm just pushing for a robust schedule to guestimate when everyone can plan on being finished for the day. The schedule shows a 3 hour window to play 7 time slots worth of matches. Correct me if I'm wrong, but our standard twdt schedule (6 time slots per sunday) routinely lasted over 4 hours in actuality. We're adding an additional time slot as well as the wrinkle of alternating twdt and twl games which will likely only add to the round setup times.

I can't really fault the game order though, I know someone already suggested just playing all the twdt first followed by all the twl, but that doesnt solve anything for those wishing to participate in both twl and twdt. but its a thought I guess

[Dwopple]

i wasnt asking for a worst case to be represented, I was honestly only asking to put out a schedule that you think has the greatest chance to be followed accurately. If you think you can maintain this schedule and only start each round around 5 minutes late, that pushes the end of day schedule by only 30 minutes or so, not bad at all. The last game of the day occasionally being advertised 30 minutes after the scheduled time is on the edge of acceptability, but still OK. If every single week finds that last LB game starting behind schedule, you have a bad schedule.

Maybe I'm just overly pessimistic, but rather than a schedule, i think the way its set up right now will equate to nothing more than a game order list for that week.

Whether having a realistic schedule actually matters is debatable. Players that only show up right before a scheduled match will be the only ones overly affected, and only in the sense they'll have to wait longer than anticipated.

Right now, I'm just pushing for a robust schedule to guestimate when everyone can plan on being finished for the day. The schedule shows a 3 hour window to play 7 time slots worth of matches. Correct me if I'm wrong, but our standard twdt schedule (6 time slots per sunday) routinely lasted over 4 hours in actuality. We're adding an additional time slot as well as the wrinkle of alternating twdt and twl games which will likely only add to the round setup times.

I can't really fault the game order though, I know someone already suggested just playing all the twdt first followed by all the twl, but that doesnt solve anything for those wishing to participate in both twl and twdt. but its a thought I guess

I pulled the last TWDT-D match End time and last TWDT-B match End Time from week 3 of this past season (6 games total, 2/2/2). This is anecdotal to that week, but overall TWDT-B ended 10 minutes past the "anticipated" end time (top of the hour from when 1st DT-B match started). This was with the "normal" !add timers, not the reduced ones being implemented for this upcoming season. Keep in mind this was only with 6 teams.

End time of latest TWDT-D match


End time of latest TWDT-B match


The major scheduling issues arose on the 3/3/3 weekends after we had to postpone week 1 matches, as we tried to fit those into 20 minute timeslots with no changes to the !add timers.

Hope this helps a bit!

[Riverside]

I pulled the last TWDT-D match End time and last TWDT-B match End Time from week 3 of this past season (6 games total, 2/2/2). This is anecdotal to that week, but overall TWDT-B ended 10 minutes past the "anticipated" end time (top of the hour from when 1st DT-B match started). This was with the "normal" !add timers, not the reduced ones being implemented for this upcoming season. Keep in mind this was only with 6 teams.

End time of latest TWDT-D match


End time of latest TWDT-B match


The major scheduling issues arose on the 3/3/3 weekends after we had to postpone week 1 matches, as we tried to fit those into 20 minute timeslots with no changes to the !add timers.

Hope this helps a bit!

This is helpful ty 4 finding and sharing dwippil.

In jav and wb, my assumption is that TWL games would go 2-6 mins longer than TWDT games on average.

If theres an ez/fast way 2 find and share last TWL game-time, I think it can help provide more clarity on the slots & ranges within scheduling.

I'll reiterate my interest in Saturday earlier games (noon?), and EST weeknight matches.

2026 Beer League HYPE

[RaCka]

Thanks RaCka and LD for your answers. (and the announcement ofc)

If there is any room for feedback, my take is that the limits are too big. No one needs 16 players for dueling leagues. Top player base isn't big and this will ultimately lead into some players benching who would start elsewhere. I would suggest changing the limit to 10 and combine LD/LJ rosters.

Keep in mind the previous few seasons of TWL we had 8-10 teams per division. This season we have 6 teams for each. Ogron ran numbers for every 'strong' to 'elite' player in the zone per division and it broke down to 53 TWLD players, 44 TWLJ players, and 72 TWLB players. Also some squads will not use every available roster slot but it's nice for other squads to have some more wiggle room.

[Zeebu]

I pulled the last TWDT-D match End time and last TWDT-B match End Time from week 3 of this past season (6 games total, 2/2/2). This is anecdotal to that week, but overall TWDT-B ended 10 minutes past the "anticipated" end time (top of the hour from when 1st DT-B match started). This was with the "normal" !add timers, not the reduced ones being implemented for this upcoming season. Keep in mind this was only with 6 teams.

End time of latest TWDT-D match


End time of latest TWDT-B match


The major scheduling issues arose on the 3/3/3 weekends after we had to postpone week 1 matches, as we tried to fit those into 20 minute timeslots with no changes to the !add timers.

Hope this helps a bit!

thanks, dwop
it definitely helps

glad to hear the add timers will be squeezed a bit to help out.

[viop11]

agree w/ dreamin, cud vs 8-10 person dueling roster combined

[Vys]

When me and dwopple ran twl and we limited a combined of 3 leagues. The roster limit was less for 3 leagues than 2. I just think we should increase the squads and limit to 10 or 12 players.

All whats going to happen is sinilar to the old days and that is double stack. Rather than forcing them to make a new squad. For instance just looking at evil.

They will play mythril, racka, lockdown, beam, siaxis. There's no need to really fill another 3 spots up because some of the javs and basers can fill that position.

So that will be 3 warbird riding riding the pine. When I make some twl moves, same will apply and at the end of it there will be 18 players who could of been on a different squad.

I'd propose to look at these roster restrictions.

Twld - 7 players
Twlj - 7 players
Both leagues 12 players

there will be 24 players cut down from rosters and it will give space for those players to create 2 squads.

[Ardour]

I am not a fan of splitting rosters at all and dead against it. Where was the public vote/sign off of this? Or is it, whoever runs the league gets to make fundamental changes? Splitting rosters goes against the history of the league and how its ran for many seasons. It is supposed to mirror TWD and be the professional follow on from TWD. TWD is the playground/practise area for competitive matches, TWL is the serious part where squads that want to prove they are the best in everything, compete in. Trench Wars Divisions is 3 leagues: Dueling, Jav and Base. Don't start grouping Jav with Warbird and call it Dueling. Albeit badly named but Dueling is warbirds. If we want to group them like this, please rename everything.

We all go to squads and play alongside people that we want to play alongside with in the divisions that we are interested in playing. This forms jav interested squads, warbird interested squads, base, etc and all combinations. You are devaluing the whole purpose of squads and TWL and why it would mean something for a squad to triple crown. Now it seems like its more being designed to cater in individual glory because it enables an individual more of a chance to triple crown and be a part of different squads. How also are we supposed to have got practise with different groups of players for each league with TWDs current setup? Constantly being borrowed?

If rosters have to be split then do it for all 3 leagues or not at all. As vys pointed out, reduce the numbers allowed on a squad and then increase the number of squads that will be allowed in and this increases how many players get to take part which is the only positive of splitting rosters.

Heres me trying to get TWLM ready for TWL and you have actually pissed me off with this kind of change as it ruins TWL.

How about we introduce borrowing to TWL? Unlimited borrowing whenever you like. Because who cares anymore?

[Rab]

I have no skin in this game, but I agree with Ard that splitting doesn't make sense. TWL is the stacking league, trying to pretend it isn't is pointless. Just own it.

I've been squadless for ages, and can confirm that the pure borrow life is better. No drama. Playing with anyone = more playtime. Obvs doesn't work if everyone does it tho.

[Vys]

I agree also with ard. The twl me and dwopple ran with the small roster cap for 3 leagues worked really well. I really don't see why that needs to be changed?

From memory I think all 3 finals went to 3 rounds. The only negative feedback we faced was that the season was too long.

[saiyan]

I am not a fan of splitting rosters at all and dead against it. Where was the public vote/sign off of this? Or is it, whoever runs the league gets to make fundamental changes? Splitting rosters goes against the history of the league and how its ran for many seasons. It is supposed to mirror TWD and be the professional follow on from TWD. TWD is the playground/practise area for competitive matches, TWL is the serious part where squads that want to prove they are the best in everything, compete in. Trench Wars Divisions is 3 leagues: Dueling, Jav and Base. Don't start grouping Jav with Warbird and call it Dueling. Albeit badly named but Dueling is warbirds. If we want to group them like this, please rename everything.

We all go to squads and play alongside people that we want to play alongside with in the divisions that we are interested in playing. This forms jav interested squads, warbird interested squads, base, etc and all combinations. You are devaluing the whole purpose of squads and TWL and why it would mean something for a squad to triple crown. Now it seems like its more being designed to cater in individual glory because it enables an individual more of a chance to triple crown and be a part of different squads. How also are we supposed to have got practise with different groups of players for each league with TWDs current setup? Constantly being borrowed?

If rosters have to be split then do it for all 3 leagues or not at all. As vys pointed out, reduce the numbers allowed on a squad and then increase the number of squads that will be allowed in and this increases how many players get to take part which is the only positive of splitting rosters.

Heres me trying to get TWLM ready for TWL and you have actually pissed me off with this kind of change as it ruins TWL.

How about we introduce borrowing to TWL? Unlimited borrowing whenever you like. Because who cares anymore?

"It is supposed to mirror TWD"... You didn't notice TWD has been a joke for years?

It's plainly obvious the squad has become a meaningless concept in TW and has been for many years now. I'm not sure why but I would guess it's due to the rampant proliferation of NPD among the remaining population.

I do generally agree with you but it seems you have been sleeping for a while.. Rosters have been split in some previous seasons.

[Jones]

I agree with Ardour. The thing that saiyan says about squads being meaningless is because of players don't play anymore and because of the borrow system. I have always been against the borrow system, as well as raising the reso-limits, but i do acknowledge they have been really helpful to the zone.

I think separating lb rosters is a mistake. Ardour said it really well.
Edit. The twd squad thing as being meaningless has been established a long, long time ago, before you came to this zone. saiyan

My @ thing is messing up

[RaCka]

I agree with some of your points Ardour just from a traditional standpoint, but TWL has already had some seasons where basing was split from the other rosters. One of the main talking points when I spoke to many of the top players was they wanted to play with 'X squad' for their Wb & Jav team but wanted to play with 'Y squad' for their basing team. I would say 9 out of 10 players said that exact statement to me without me proposing it to them in the first place. At this point in the game with the current player base I just want TWL to be as competitive as possible and I think we get overall better competition with rosters being split.

As for the stricter roster limits - the number 16 was agreed upon based on the numbers I posted above. I'd be fine with making them a little stricter if everybody feels they need to be a little stricter but keep in mind there's only 6 teams this season.

[Dreamwin]

If we want TWL to be as competitive as possible, we will set stricter roster limits. I would imagine many top players agree with this one. I would also like to know which top players have vouched for such big roster sizes in the first place.

[Zeebu]

If we want TWL to be as competitive as possible, we will set stricter roster limits. I would imagine many top players agree with this one. I would also like to know which top players have vouched for such big roster sizes in the first place.

the more strict the limits, it may become desirable to increase to 8 teams instead of 6