"How do we fix TWL?" - An open discussion

[Vykromond]

It's everywhere in threads these days, and I want to make a thread specifically devoted to it. Also, with the discussion focused in one thread, the folks who run this show can look to one place for ideas. So let's put aside our cock-waving and inanity-spouting for a second, guys, and put on our thinking hats for real.

How do we fix TWL?

ITEM A: DOES TWL NEED FIXING?
My opinion (and the opinion that seems to be shared by a lot of people on the forum these days): absolutely. The pressing issue (we're not talking about technical difficulties such as the bot troubles that will simply be resolved in time without policy changes) is that squads are falling out and dissolving like mad. The Shriek meltdown is fine- the system "worked" in its handling of that- but it seems to have headed off much bigger problems. One squad that replaced Shriek, Whipe, has even dissolved itself.
It's a bad situation. Very bad.

ITEM B: (the important item, and the title of this post) HOW DO WE FIX IT?

Here are some ideas culled from other posts in this forum:

the solution to this problem is that the spots should be offered to the highest ranked TWL squad that isnt in that league. for example, in basing, grapevine should get the first basing invite if they have highest twbd ratings than any other twl team. we should only go down to twd if no other twl squads exist that want to take the spot. then we wont get squads folding, followed by fill-in twd squads folding, etc.

They really need to set a minimum limit on the time that a squad has competed in TWD before they can qualify for TWL. Say 4 or 5 months? That is more than enough time to eliminate all the unstable squads that pop up.

A great idea from Fruitang, though I don't agree with pushing the leagues down to 12 teams (pusher, don't you dare- I'll explain in this thread, if I can fire off an explanation before leaving for the UK):

If TWL were to be cut down to 12 teams, there needs to be a rethink of the policy of replacing dead TWL Squads. For example: there was once a mini weekend tournament to find a new replacement squad for Zero Hour in TWLB Season 1 (5) which Onix won.

If we were to go back to this format it would benefit in many ways:
1. Members of a team would have to stay for much longer than 1 hour, and therefore the more active squads would have a better chance of getting into TWL.
2. This eradicates newbie squads who only play other newbie squads and get 1 (not that low but you know what I mean) TWD rating point per game to get to the top of the ladder.
3. Creates more interest in the TWD ladder as there will be weak squads and strong squads in the mini tournament but to be fair, looking at the current state of the TWD ladders, games between many of the highest ranking squads could go either way so it comes down to whoever plays better on the day.

Dependant on time restrictions, there should be at least 4 teams playing. 1st in the ladder vs 4th and 2nd vs 3rd with a best of 3 play-off like format but it could be possible to bump the d and j tournys up to 8 teams (1v8, 2v7, 3v6, 4v5) and have a 1 round game in the first two rounds and a best of 3 for the final. Basing should be no more than 4 teams because there are only a few decent basing squads and few who actually give a shit about it.

The tournys should only take place in 1 week and any games that that replacement squad should have played would then be played in week 11.

Actually this policy for replacing TWL squads would be better than the current format. In all honesty, it sucks. Sure, sometimes you have runaway leaders but what if the top 2 or 3 teams are separated by 10 points or so? Such as Incuria and Spastic in TWLJ at the moment. Basing is usually always close too. So this has gone from becoming just an idea to a call of scrapping the current system of replacing TWL squads.

And some really good advice from Ephemeral, though it doesn't pertain to a TWL policy change so much as a change in attitude:

The 'hopper' issue should be considered from a 'long-term' perspective. I mean, after all, whose fault is it really? It's like people bitching about the news media when we (society) are the ones ultimately supporting them.
So my point is this, as long as squads get seduced into accepting hoppers into their team, then THIS is the problem. We don't need rules of changes to the league. We need to be vocal and make our opinions heard when your squad considers a hopper. Virtually every squad I have been on has allowed member input into recruiting decisions, so this isn't just about bad squad leaders. (Of course, it helps if we have loyalty to the squads we play for instead of bailing the minute things get bad.)
Take the time to look at player's squad history and provide feedback to your squad leaders. Think and look before joining a squad, make sure it's a place you want to be and make sure you understand their recruiting policies. If your not sure, ask them how they recruit. Recruiting a hopper is short-term thinking for any squad, it takes some discipline not to be sucked into this kind of thinking. But for the long-term good of the squad AND the league, it is best to pass on hoppers. If we all did this, hopping would become less common and things would be better all the way around.

Other ideas to consider:

- Should the conference system be scrapped?

- Should the number of teams in TWL be lowered?

- Should an actual roster cap be enforced?

- Should the roster cap be lowered?

- Should the roster lock be earlier in the season?




EDIT: formatting

[Awesome]

Should the conference system be scrapped?

• Yes

Should the number of teams in TWL be lowered?

• Yes - 12 teams per league

Should an actual roster cap be enforced?

• Most definately

Should the roster cap be lowered?

• It should be at 35, which i believe it is, just unenforced

Should the roster lock be earlier in the season?

• No, the roster locks were fine. However there should be exceptions for squads like Shriek who got disqualified through no fault of their own, but only because of the dumbass behaviour of one captain

[Capital Knockers]

I think nemisph has the right idea. Having a strict and well held X number of months needed to enter TWL would be a step in the right direction. At least less squads would drop out then.

[Fit of Rage]

I agree with everything awesome posted.

[Capital Knockers]

ummm.... agreed?
i said the same thing... everyone knows theres no limit for twd squads, but this is a twl forum and we're discussing twl rosters
the problem is what you and i both already stated.. the twd roster = twl roster ...and it shouldn't be.

what they should've done was had squad captains submit rosters at the beginning of the season and when they want to add people, a squad captain for that squad will send an email it in to trenchwarsleagues@yahoo.com or maybe have some sort of system on the twl site where you can add new people to your twl roster who are signed up on your twd roster.

^ good idea - damn get this dude working on TWL already

[bloodzombie]

Awesome is on the right track, but I don't see how 12 squads will make it better, except that if you scrap the conferences, you can just have 12 squads each play each other once a lot easier.

I don't think exceptions should be made for squads like shriek. It sucks for them, but I think you need to make an example. The team is welcome to jump back in next season, right? however, I think the guy who did it, I forget now, should be banned for good.

[Vykromond]

Should the conference system be scrapped?

• Yes

Should the number of teams in TWL be lowered?

• Yes - 12 teams per league

I don't really want to disagree with you (though I do) before you go into this in a little more detail. Why do you think this is the correct solution?

However there should be exceptions for squads like Shriek who got disqualified through no fault of their own, but only because of the dumbass behaviour of one captain

Here, again, I disagree. We have no way of knowing how many members of Shriek were aware of the Merce situation, as it were. Those who were aware of it and did nothing about it deserve the boot from leagues that they got. Additionally, having a large influx of players from a formerly competitive squad to other squads disrupts the stability and balance of the league even more than just the changes brought by that squad's dismissal.

I think nemisph has the right idea. Having a strict and well held X number of months needed to enter TWL would be a step in the right direction. At least less squads would drop out then.

I think so too. I think that 3 months is a reasonable timeframe for this; not too high of a bar, not too low. What does everyone else think?

[Capital Knockers]

I think 3 months sounds alright, if a squad can hold it together for that long they deserve a shot at TWL. Personally I think TWL staff should check out all the squads before they enter, to see how stable/active their roster actually is, and speak with capts personally. We all know staff is too lazy for that though

[Vykromond]

Here's a fantastic post from the "Newer squads in TWL" topic that gets at what I think is a better solution to the current issues than the limiting teams:

V's note: I've made minor edits to Sufficient's post to clean up grammar.
There simply aren't enough high skilled squads to allow for every league to be super competitive, in the sense that no one has a perfect rec, the lowest teams have at least some wins, and every squad has a chance at the championship.

However, in my opinion, limiting the rosters would increase the competitiveness and team-orientedness of the league. I propose a roster limit for TWLD and TWLJ of 15 players, and a roster of 25 players for TWLB. That's like having 3 teams in one squad. To me that's more than a generous amount of "backup players." This reduced roster limit would:

1) spread the talent out among the teams;
2) force teams to be more active;
3) increase competitiveness and team-oriented gameplay.

I'd even extend this idea a bit further, into TWD. TWD and TWL can be integrated in such a way that you have a bigger TWD roster than you would in TWL. (V's note: This would require separating the database for TWD and TWL rosters, which needs to be done regardless.)

For example's sake, le'ts use 25 for TWDD and TWJD, and 35 for TWBD. So, for each league, a squad has to specify a max of 25 players that are allowed for wb and jav. If this squad is in TWL, then the TWL roster is limited to 15 players that are included in the TWD roster. V's note: Sufficient's following ideas are more drastic changes/additions to the format, and I don't know what I think of them. Everything before this note, however, I completely agree with, though maybe the precise numbers need some bargaining. Thus, the squad ends up with 10 "backup players" (or "trainees") which are only allowed to play TWD. This is the "pool" from which they can draw players onto their TWL roster- by sending a player back into the TWD roster and moving another player from the TWD roster into the TWL roster. Of course, you'd need to tack on some type of waiting period, like 1 game. But this would integrate TWD and TWL more closely, while solving potential problems with not having "your friends" playing with you with a "15 and 25 TWL roster limit." To me this also creates more of a "minor league" situation where someone can play TWD for a squad and then get promoted to the "major league" TWL roster.

The whole issue of roster locks would still probably still have to be dealt with, assuming that people still care about it.

[Epinephrine]

Just a note on limiting the number of squads.

Please keep in mind that even if squads were limited to 12, Shriek would have still gotten into TWL and the same problems would have still occured.

While having 12 squads would allow all squads to play eachother once and thus create a different type of league, remember that squads will STILL dissolve and that this will STILL affect standings. Actually it will affect standings even more if everyone has the same schedule because then EVERY team will be affected by Shriek dissolving.

Having less teams just means that less people get to play TWL. Is this what you really want? In both TWLD and TWLJ where there are 16 teams now, there are MORE than enough teams out there who WANT to compete that IMO we should let more people play not less. TWL is for the players of Trench Wars not just a select few.

As for a two tier league, I don't even want to get into this except to say that the multi-tier league has contributed to the downfall (at least IMO) of Premier Pro League.

-Epi

[Cig Smoke]

I agree somewhat with what awesome said. He has the basics down.

IF we put the leagues to 12 teams like TWLB is this season? Then u'll have squads who mite deserve to be in missing the cut, much like grapevine this past twbd/twlb season. You mite say cutting it to 12 will make the leagues more competative bc u think u'll get rid of the melee/elenya and those squads, but those squads can easily requalify by playing sub-par teams, much like they did this current season. I think if we limit the teams even more, we gotta look at how we let squads into TWL. The TWD system is ok somewhat, but not 100% correct.

About the roster lock, Yes it was at the rite time in the season, 1 problem tho, THERE WAS NO SOFT ROSTER LOCK!!!! They stressed on how they'd have this neat soft lock so ppl couldnt hop, but dying squads could recruit from TWD. Point is if ur gonna have something like this then make sure it works. Dont announce it then dont do it. You guys didnt even announce till after the hard lock that the soft lock wasnt working. PPl like download and nether could of been on a different squad then possibly.

What i propose instead of a hard roster lock in midseason, make a person wait a longer time to be able toplay. I mean of course u would lock the rosters b4 playoff time so ppl dont all hop to those squads like a few seasons ago, but if u made it a 2-3 week wait (like dsb) then you'd have less and less hopping. I mean there is only 10 weeks in TWL (minus playoffs) Even if u put a lock on around week 8ish/9ish. I mean If someone joined a playo9ff squasd week 9, had to wait 3 weeks to play that would just about be the end of playoffs anyway. I didnt think this whole thing through, but its an idea i think should be explored more by ppl with bigger imaginations

Roster limit @ 35 is fine, but if ur gonna announce a roster limit, then actualy go through with it! DOnt say YA ROSTER LIMIT 35! then dont enforce it. You'd almost need another roster page for a TWL roster. I know squads like paladen/others who have retired ppl just sitting on there TWD rosters who wouldnt be a help in TWL. You'd have to have a way for squads to work around thats stuff too. But set a roster limit, even if its less then 35, then actuay enforce it. I dont think any squad really needs 35 members on it. Especialy when there are very FEW 3 league squads (the ones who need the more ppl).

Overall this league is running very well (cept afew bot failurs) and alot better then the seasons past, we aer still growing i guess, and should get better each year, but some of the small things that it seems we always overlook are the things that com back to kill us. We always look big, like new bots, updated bots, this bots. New arenas, ship limits (in lb), set damage, new systems in LB and so on. I mean those are all fine and dandy but look @ the little things to, like enforcing roster limits and shit.

i also like the squad having to be in TWD for so long b4 they can get into TWL, i also think they should have to play so many high ranked squads b4 they get in too.

[Vykromond]

Epi, it's good to hear your input on something like this.

Just a note on limiting the number of squads.

Please keep in mind that even if squads were limited to 12, Shriek would have still gotten into TWL and the same problems would have still occured.

Yes, though this is maybe not quite a comprehensive enough look; Shriek's departure from the leagues is not the only issue at work here. There were other new squads in the leagues that came in prior to the Shriek departure that have also fallen out. It is important to note that there are also new squads that have proven themselves healthy, competent, and good league members (Incuria and Verone, though I don't know anything about them, and Defiancy). New squads don't have to be good- hopefully, they won't be, because they're new and improving players, and we need squads to fill the lower end of the standings- but they do have to have longevity and a desire to improve. I can vouch for Defiancy, who I've observed pretty closely since they came into the league (see: my other post on this page in the forum), as just such a healthy squad. The other two appear to be as well, though I can't speak for them at all.

While having 12 squads would allow all squads to play eachother once and thus create a different type of league, remember that squads will STILL dissolve and that this will STILL affect standings. Actually it will affect standings even more if everyone has the same schedule because then EVERY team will be affected by Shriek dissolving. (emphasis added)

Interesting.

Having less teams just means that less people get to play TWL. Is this what you really want? In both TWLD and TWLJ where there are 16 teams now, there are MORE than enough teams out there who WANT to compete that IMO we should let more people play not less. TWL is for the players of Trench Wars not just a select few.

ABSOLUTELY. This is an excellent point.

As for a two tier league, I don't even want to get into this except to say that the multi-tier league has contributed to the downfall (at least IMO) of Premier Pro League.

I know nothing about Premier- care to elaborate?

[Underground]

Actually I think 16 teams is nice BUT we gotta pick the right squads into TWL. Squads like Paladen, Warpath, Evolve<d>, ... didnt get in the first TWD ladder positions when TWL qualification was over. Athough, they are around for a lot of time and should be in TWL.
I suggest NOT ONLY twd rating "picks" TWL squads but TWL ops also decide on wether a squad seems to fit in TWL meanings or not. If not they should invite some other squad.
I do think a group of ppl should have the function to watch the squads and when TWL time comes invite those they think would do good / not dissolve.
Its not that hard and with experience we'll get everything alright.
I do think we need ppl with lots of free time as TWL ops tho. Its quit important.

[Sleepy Weasel]

Please keep in mind that even if squads were limited to 12, Shriek would have still gotten into TWL and the same problems would have still occured.

uh, no. If there were only 12 squads when shriek dissolved they would have been replaced by someone like avalonian,tanked,rapid, melee, verone,whiterabbits (I'm just guessing who was in the last few spots to make it into twl I don't really remember) those guys that got in with the 15/16th spot. With a 12 team system that means that there probably will be a few stable fairly strong squads that miss out on playing. While that might suck for them, it would be good for the league because it will mean if we lose a squad we'll have a strong batch of replacement squads. With 16 squads we may be lucky enough to find 16 squads that can reasonably compete, but having a 17th, 18th,19th stable squad available in case one of these squads dissolves isn't going to be very likely. I feel like there is usually around 14 stable squads per league. If a 12 league system was in place we'd have 12 strong squads playing each other with 2 strong squads just waiting for their chance to fill in. Ideal situation, but not terribly unreasonable.

So yes 12 squads would almost certainly reduce problems and make things more stable, it's just whether it's worth it

[wadi]

A lot of what's being said here regarding league shrinkage argues against it because it stops new squads from experiencing TWL. What I would prefer is a TWL shrinkage, inorder to increase the competitveness of TWD and TWL. Take a look at TWLB this season: no dissolutions, no forfeits, no no-shows (at least to my knowledge), that's a pretty compelling argument for league shrinkage. If one or two "competitve" teams get cut from TWL, all the better. TWL should require real effort and talent to make, and frankly right now it doesn't. Any decent squad didn't have to try too hard to make TWL this last season EXCEPT in TWLB where tanked/melee (2 squads who were head and shoulders ahead of the twd basing pack) duked it out right up until the final minutes of the qualification lock. If this was the model for TWLD/J, you would probably drop one or two good, but not playoff caliber, dueling squads back in to the twd mix, hopefully increasing both the competitiveness and the stability of TWL, as well as the skill level of the lower division. Now, there is the problem of fringe TWD/TWL squads dissolving if they don't qualify, and that's pretty much unavoidable no matter how you slice it, but a roster limit of around 25 players (lineup x 5), might help stabilize some of the hopping. Although I don't think there's a squad out there that can honestly say they have 25 active TWL players on their rosters. Even pallies.

TWL may be the most popular zone, but it's blatantly clear we can't support a 16 team league. TWD is still pretty damn good, and people need to quit talking about it like it's some reject league. Yes, it is the lesser league, but then again TWL is supposed to be the pinnacle of competition right? And how can you have competition without stability. Shrink the league, Increase the logevity requirements for entering squads, and do something about the average player maturity, and you got your answer vyk.