"How do we fix TWL?" - An open discussion

[nemiseph]

Leagues are there to reward squads who can last the distance. I don't believe that TWL necessarily rewards squad longitivity at the moment. In my opinion, the whole way that squads are selected for TWL causes the high amount of squads to fall out of it.

Think about TWD for a minute. How often does a new squad get created, rise up the rankings, then dissolve? Every couple of weeks or so.

It is easy enough for that squad to win a few games and get to a high ranking in the ladder(s), especially once the TWL teams have been taken out of them, and then qualify for TWL.

It seems that TWL qualification occurs for most new squads within that cycle, which is the problem and it is this which seems to encourage squads to go for it. They know that they can relatively easily get into TWL so they go for it. Its kind of a quick fix of action for that squad.

As i've said before, I believe that a set time for squads to participate in TWD is needed so that these types of squads are eliminated from TWL. 3 months should be the absolute minimum amount of time. I would prefer to see 4 at least though.

In addition to this, I believe league operators should be looking at individual squads merits, not just their TWD ranking/rating. Things like the calibra of opposition faced should be taken into account as well.

Also, all squads that finished the previous season should be automatically accepted back for the new season. This will reward stability and provide more incentive for newer squads to stick together. Granted you will get a few squads who will not get any better, maybe even worse, but every league in every sport/ game has weak teams in them. It makes it more exciting when one of them manages to beat a top team. And besides, its nice for them to be able to win at least 1 game against a similarly skilled team.

The remaining places should be fought for using Fruitang's tournament idea. Then replacement squads will not be able to sneak through without facing good opposition.

With these measures, I believe that the league sizes do not need to be reduced. With careful squad selection, TWL could easily support the current amount of squads.

[Vykromond]

Holyshit guys, do you really expect people to read all of your fucking essays on a cumputer game league?

The leagues are fine just as they are now. It's definately not the league's fault that Shriek decided to cheat and that whipe/eliteclan/saiyansoldiers have had bad captains and have dissolved.

Let's just fucking shoot the spaceships.

Actually, we're trying to make it so that more people can shoot the spaceships without being completely fucked over one way or another.

EDIT: Deleted a flame that was here.

Also, all squads that finished the previous season should be automatically accepted back for the new season. This will reward stability and provide more incentive for newer squads to stick together.

Nemiseph, I'm not sure if I'm misreading you here, but wouldn't that make it so that there would be the exact same pool of TWL squads season to season, barring dissolution? I'm not entirely sure that's a good idea.

The remaining places should be fought for using Fruitang's tournament idea. Then replacement squads will not be able to sneak through without facing good opposition.

Fair enough. Let's flesh this out some more. How about, when it's time to select new squads for the TWL, the top eight squads in TWDD and TWJD, and the top four squads in TWBD, have a simple playoff bracket. 1v8 (or 1v4 in BD), 2v7 (or 2v3), 3v6, 4v5 one week, the winners the next, and the winners of that the next. This would be a total of three weeks- not that long- and could be done right before the beginning of the TWL season. (Segue: I would also advocate not resetting TWD close to TWL time, but instead taking a hard look at the ratings system- which I don't know anything about, as yet, but will research- to see what we can do to prevent squads from jumping up the charts by playing very easy matches and then remaining stagnant with their rating.) In the event that more than one slot needs to be filled, it would be the finalists (the top two). In the event that three slots need to be filled, the gates of Hell open and demons take over the Earth.

[nemiseph]

Nemiseph, I'm not sure if I'm misreading you here, but wouldn't that make it so that there would be the exact same pool of TWL squads season to season, barring dissolution? I'm not entirely sure that's a good idea.

Hadn't quite thought of what would happen if no squads dissolved. Maybe then you could introduce a promotion/ demotion idea where the bottom 4 squads from TWL are demoted back down to just TWD, and the top 4 TWD squads are entered into TWL?

Edited - changed top 4 twl to bottom 4

[Vykromond]

Hadn't quite thought of what would happen if no squads dissolved. Maybe then you could introduce a promotion/ demotion idea where the top 4 squads from TWL are demoted back down to just TWD, and the top 4 TWD squads are entered into TWL?

You mean the bottom four of TWL. But this is the right procedure, yes- though I think bottom two would be better than bottom four. One from each conference.

[Randedl]

i didn't bother reading through the second half, but. . .

with the current system, the more you lessen the number of squads per league, the more those last few twd qualifying spots will mean, the more gay twd will become.

the entirety of shriek should have been punished, otherwise, there would be no reason for people to not rejoin a squad next season that has already folded 3 seasons in a row, after the roster lock. maybe the fourth time will be the charm?

there should be a minimum length of time for a squad to exist in order for them to qualify.

the twd system should also be reworked so that squad A cannot pass squad B unless they either beat squad B or beat a squad above squad B.

further, a twd squad should have AT LEAST a 25% winning rate against TWL squads in order to qualify for twl, or something to this effect to ensure they are actually playing against the competition they will play against in twl. nobody would lose sleep over replacing a squad who goes 0-10 in twl.

the squad ducking tactic that worked in this last twd will only be used more and more often in the future because of the fact that it did, and will continue to work until things are changed.

i like the idea of a roster limit in order to encourage competition. seriously, fuck the no limit in twd. if a squad wants to have 2351521 members, let them stay in twd, those members will leave for a twl squad with less. i got this idea from another post, i think i might have changed it a bit: give each squad a base amount of 10 "subs" they can use however they want. from there, have each league they are involved in give them a higher number of spots on their allotted roster. for the first league they are in, give them an additional 5 spots. for the second they are in, give them an additional 5, and for the third, give them 10, for a maximum of 30. these numbers could obviously be changed depending on what the guy in charge wants, just an idea.

further, have no waiting period for a person who joins a twl squad that was not on a DIFFERENT twl squad to begin with. or have it at 3 or 4 days. in the event that people go on vacation, a squad will not be screwed by the above system. add to that an increased penalty for switching from one twl squad to another by changing the wait period to 2 weeks. squad hopping should not happen once twl begins, especially if this stupid system remains where conferences are divided by what a couple random people think they should be.

find some way to discourage one league squads. the roster limit above is one way. . . this will catalyze more competative rosters from top to bottom as you will no longer have 30 warbird players on one squads roster when all 30 of them could be playing for another.

people will argue that this is not what they want to do. would anybody like to make the claim that if a person was given the choice of being in twl on one squad and not being in twl on another that they would choose the latter? if so, they don't belong in twl in the first place since they aren't there to play. if you don't think this is true, check those replacement squads that got to the top of twd, got into twl as a bonus, and are now gone. . .

on that last note, just randomly pick the conferences, if they are a MUST. throw 8 teams into one and 8 into another, you will never know what will happen over the course of a season and it is stupid to pretend that you will. do cross conference playoffs and any inequality will be null.

i loved whoever's idea it was to name the conferences after the two teams that made the final the season before instead of "east and west" which is retarded when a squad like pallies for example is in the east in one division and the west in another.

increase the number of twlb squads back to 16, keep javs and warbirds at the same. reinvite the top 8 squads from the season before. if one dissolves, invite the next and next until you get 8. the other 8 should be fought over by twd qualifying squads - and make winning twd a bigger deal. it goes on forever, i'd like to know who is the best at that kind of system.

twl squads are twl squads. they are not twd squads and should not be given the same relaxed rights. when we start to look at twl squads as the elite of the zone again, instead of the best of twd, then i believe that things will really change for the better in twl.

i also think that twl needs somebody in charge who has an interest in seeing all 3 leagues thrive. it's not a coincidence that twlb is the only league that has seen any changes in recent history. further, ensure that the twl ops are people who will actually do something aside from dump the majority of work on to others.

[MetalKid]

I got bored of reading halfway down, so chances are, no one is going to read my post... Heh... But, these are my ideas: (sorry if already stated before)

What the biggest problem in TWL is that there is a lack of incentive for losing squads to play. In Football, Basketball, etc, losing doesn't mean that much to the players... Why you ask? They get paid the same either way. Going to the playoffs is just an incentive to make more money. What about TWL? What is the incentive for the losing squads? Absolutely nothing.

I think that the best thing to do is make it so ALL squads can go to playoffs. However, the top from each of the leagues will go to their playoffs, and the losing squads will go to their own. Then after both finals are played, they could leave it as is or have the to final teams play (maybe an upset could happen, who knows). That way, losing squads won't dissolve until after they lose in their playoffs, which won't affect the league anymore.

I propose we stick with 16 squads. If you have 16 squads, that means 80 people will play in 1 league each weekend. If there were 12, only 60 people would get to play. It may make the league more competitive, but it will also hurt the progress of skill in players.

We should probably do it similar to football where we have 4 "conferences" of 4 teams each. Then we could add on or take away teams as needed, if it seems wise.

Requiring that a squad be around for at least 3 months will help. If a squad doesn't meet this requirement, all the players will try to join squads that have already qualified. This will make the current squads much more stable. However, there may not be enough squads to that meet this requirement to fill all the slots. It also makes a less variety of teams.

[Claus Valca]

the twd system should also be reworked so that squad A cannot pass squad B unless they either beat squad B or beat a squad above squad B.

I really understand the reasoning behind this, but could lead to the same kind of lameness, from top to bottom in the ladder instead of bottom to top. Imagine if squad B and the squads above it don't accept challenges from squad A. Squad B and the others above it sit comfortably, never loosing their spot, or monopolizing the top 16 or whatever the twl squad limit is.

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Anyways, I think the main thing is to have a squad creation minimum time, like so many others posted. That would keep active squads into TWL. Altough there are other things to think about, this is the kind of thing that should be given first priority.

Dear leetos(tm), I don't think there will always be 16 or X great squads in TWL, so get over it and let some "worse" squads play (these may and will surprise you in certain games).. as long as they show up to play

No offense meant to no one, just suggestions. Just my 2 and a half cents

[Jerome Scuggs]

I think for the most part the issue with stable squads boils down to an argument of automation (which DoCk> wants) and human management (which DoCk> does not want). I remember the old days where hopeful squads fired off emails to ops for TWL positions - then the ops evaluated and picked. Nowadays it's selected by a "number 1" type process.

Perhaps there could be a "formula" ? It could factor in things like rating, # of members, time in existence, maybe even right down to how many squads each of their members have been in. This formula wouldn't necessarily decide who should be in TWL, but perhaps it could help ops out a bit. Because, face it, ops can't NOT accept a squad into twl because "they think they might dissolve", perhaps this formula could be some kind of small justification.

[death row]

I severely dislike the idea of forcing lower roster limits. The season is long and people can't always show up, and after a certain time, you can't add to your lineup.

UNLESS what you're saying is that we could have as many as we want for TWD, then have seperate TWL rosters... like I would be on pallies TWLB roster, but not on the LJ or LD rosters, some people could be on two or three rosters within pallies... However, that woudln't accomplish what you're looking for, which is to create more competetive squads.

The most important flaw in your system though, is that not all squads are made just to win TWL... we've got guys on our roster that were here from the beginning.. they suck at spaceships.. we should have to drop them now if we want to compete?

enforce the 35 player limit, even 30 if you must (I think that's too low for a team playing all 3 leagues), but don't go lower than that.

Agreed. Don't go lower than those limits, to me that would be stupid.

[Facetious]

The leagues are fine just as they are now.

I kind of tend to agree. Sure, it's fun to discuss, but if changing the rules calls for a delay to the start of a new twl, I don't think it's really worth it. TWL is fun enough as it is, and the playoffs will be exciting. Tweaking the rules from season to season seems reasonable, but a complete overhaul of the rules is going to cause staffers a lot of work that they probably don't have the time to do.

[CrvenBan]

All we need is

WINTER LEAGUE







I've tried to conduct a little poll with help of squad caps before I went home for summer (I have numbers on my comp back home), and from what I remember a vast majority of people would want winter league over summer league.
Squads that, if I remember right, gave me answers were Pallies, Mambo, Shriek, WRs, Spastic, Incuria, Diso..Gv possibly...was waiting for others as well.
The spread was roughly like this:
winter: ~75-90% of people
summer:~5-10%
didn't care:~10-15%


That poll wasn't complete, but it does give you a reason to check that issue indepth, and I would like to see a poll where squad caps would check with their teams and note votes on summer/winter league. And if numbers are clear, then TWL staff should seriously think about moving league to winter months.

Only problem with winter league would be big hollidays, but that can be avoided if the league, in it's current format about 14w long (10w reg + 3w playoff + 1w replay), would start either late august/early september or early january after the hollidays and in either case you get 4 months to finish it.

[Underground]

If we manage to start next season in Winter I bet it have a lot more success.

[Ephemeral]

Given the history and shear number of posts where people say they don't give a shit or can not even be bothered reading the posts (but are quick to offer their 2 cents), then perhaps this epitomizes the true problem.

[Awesome]

there should be a minimum length of time for a squad to exist in order for them to qualify.

good idea in theory, rand, but do you remember during these past TWL qualifications, squads like British Squad and 2 or 3 others that didn't deserve to be in the top 5 would refuse to play top squads. The same issue applies with the system you propose. The current system is fine but with some minor changes it could be made even better:

Leave the current system and then add this:

• Allow recorded or unrecorded squad duels to allow any squad to face any other squad whenever they want (for those paladen type squads that dont want to compete but just want to play a fun match).
• For recorded squad duels, only allow squads to challenge squads within perhaps +/- 10 ladder ranks within your squad (example: if your squad is 16th on the ladder, you can only challenge squads that are within 6th to 26th on the ladder

Just another idea.

EDIT:
dont make a command like !challenge unrecordedsquad) or anything unneccessary like that ... just make it so that you challenge in the normal manner and when you start a match, it compares your ladder ranks at the beginning of the match and it determines if the match qualifies for a recorded duel or not, then after the game, have it still list the match in your squad history but if it qualified for a ladder match at the beginning, have it adjust your squad points as usual. If the two squads were too far apart on the ladder, have it keep both squads points unchanged. Also, if implemented, this system should not start until about 2 weeks after the initial points reset and qualifications start. Let people face whoever they want for the first couple of weeks then implement this once some ladder ranks have been determined.

[Zerzera]

To start of I want to say that I have no problems with how leagues is now, because it still is mostly about fun. If it was all so professional I, and others, could come up with much better formats to run leagues and no team would drop out before the end of leagues. But this just happens to be a game where it's all about having fun.
Still from reading all this threads filled with TWL-rants I start to think there is quite a community of people where it's all about being competative. Depending on how big this group is you might concider having a more professional league where having a pool of strong squads is more important than the online friendships and such. Like I said in the strikeball forum, if you are friends with someone why would it be less fun to fight him in a match.