**POSSIBLE** changes to TWLB. Feedback required.

[Jessup]

I love the idea of breaking the unbreakable cram with a reset. The problem that will need to be addressed is the same one we faced in pub when new rounds start. All players must be spawned into safes and then respawned into each ear. Not sure how hard that was for qan but should be doable. If this is not done that lame exploit of mining the respawn area and porting it with bursts would take place.

[Rab]

I'm a bit tired of the cram too, it makes winning too dependent on sharks.
I'm not sure if warping everyone is the best solution.
For example, the cram only works because there's a choke point on the map, we've had the same map for decades, so maybe it's time to change the map.

[qan]

(Unrelated to the current discussion, which is something that might warrant its own thread. Should not let that idea get away.)


Shark shrap should be fixed. TWBD/TWLB use non-standard spawn times: 6 seconds. So the shrap was being prized while the shark was still respawning. Interestingly, ?go base uses 5.15s respawn timers, and pub uses 5s. Seems like ?go base should be standardized to BD/LB, or vice versa. Doesn't make sense to have them different.



I ran a diff on the CFGs to see if anything else was different. Just Lanc settings:

BD/LB	Base/Pub
BulletFireEnergy=300	BulletFireEnergy=310
MultiFireEnergy=450	MultiFireEnergy=435
BulletSpeed=3600	BulletSpeed=3650
BulletFireDelay=63	BulletFireDelay=45
MultiFireDelay=80	MultiFireDelay=50
MultiFireAngle=333	MultiFireAngle=555
MaximumThrust=20	MaximumThrust=28
MaximumSpeed=6000	MaximumSpeed=6500
MaximumEnergy=1400	MaximumEnergy=1500
InitialRecharge=2450	InitialRecharge=2500
InitialEnergy=1400	InitialEnergy=1500
AfterburnerEnergy=4000	AfterburnerEnergy=4250

Major differences for those not familiar with ship settings are: BD/LB Lanc has slightly lower bullet fire cost, much tighter multi that costs a bit more, a much-increased bullet fire delay, and probably the most notable, 100 less energy. I wager the ?go base/Pub Lanc is overall better due to the +100 energy alone, with the slightly increased fire energy not being a problem, and multi being generally unused. Anyhow, these settings should probably be consolidated as well for the sake of consistency.

[Ricko]

A way to make flag room battles a more regular occurrence in matches would be ideal (whatever solution you come up with) - it's almost impossible to break cram if you have 2 average sharks/1 top shark and 1 bad shark vs 2 top sharks, even if you've got a decent terr and a better spider line than the other team. This then leads to boring 5-8 minute crams with minimal flag room battles, which is what makes base enjoyable.

Appreciate the argument against this is that the better sharks have earned their dues by becoming more skilled at the ship, and there is an art to being good at cramming, however the issue is that there are only a small handful of top sharks left in the zone so this means victory for squads who haven't got top sharks (which is most) is very unlikely regardless of how good their spider line is.

If we could find a way to make cram have less prominence in matches even if only by a tiny amount, it would make basing a lot more entertaining to play and spectate.

[Rab]

I don't really want to see lancs used in base, so I'd prefer the weaker lanc settings.

The respawn time is massively important.
- every kill you get equals x time of advantage
- every time you die equals x time of disadvantage
- shorter respawn time = easier for sharks to cram
- shorter respawn time = more reps in the game, so everyone dies less
- shorter respawn time = more mines/shrap in the game
- shorter respawn time = more respawning = more dying = more greens (green rewards have their own +/- dying impact)
- longer respawn time = more likely to get a td = yet another cram ffs.

Happy for turb to weigh it all up and make a call either way.

[zidane]

Cram is pretty boring and terrs being randomly prized bursts is pretty rough sometimes. Maybe remove greens from terrs like what is being tested right now but let sharks still be able to green (possible reps) to break easier. More FR etc.

can't really comment on changes so far since sharks har no shrap when I played and it was obviously much less fun than usual

[Undercut]

We have decided to update the TWBD map again to test out some new settings.
The Shark changes have been fixed and sharks will now correctly spawn with shrap every other death.
We have brought back greens for spiders on a limited basis. Spiders will now be able to green full charges again at a 25% drop rate.

We are hoping by bringing back full charges that cram will be easier to break and provide more opportunities for FR battles.

[Voth]

Agreed with resetting to FR after cram has been held for x amount of minutes.

That said, removing the ?chance? in the game by imposing timers on portals and bursts is a bad idea.

[Rab]

Double check the "total game length" timer too.
The game ends when that timer runs out, so the game can end without a team having reached "time required to win", the difference being the length of time the flag remains unclaimed at the start of the game.
Don't want a game getting down to the last few seconds and then getting robbed by game timer because someone wasn't able to quickly claim the flag at the start.
I just did an extreme example by not claiming the flag for ages at the start of a base game. I won with only 06:09 because the "total game length" timer ran out.

Result of Freq 0 vs. Freq 1: 00:00 - 06:09
,---------------------------------+------+------+-----------+------+------+-----+-----------+----.
|                               K |    D |   TK |    Points |   FT |  TeK | RPD |    Rating | LO |
|                          ,------+------+------+-----------+------+------+-----+-----------+----+
| Freq 0                  /     0 |    0 |    0 |         0 |    0 |    0 |   0 |         0 |  0 |
+------------------------'        |      |      |           |      |      |     |           |    |
|  Gypsi                        0 |    0 |    0 |         0 |    0 |    0 |     |         0 |  0 |
|  LoC_DoG                      0 |    0 |    0 |         0 |    0 |    0 |     |         0 |  0 |
|  skuff                        0 |    0 |    0 |         0 |    0 |    0 |     |         0 |  0 |
|  SNOOPiE                      0 |    0 |    0 |         0 |    0 |    0 |     |         0 |  0 |
+---------------------------------+------+------+-----------+------+------+-----+-----------+----+
|                          ,------+------+------+-----------+------+------+-----+-----------+----+
| Freq 1                  /     0 |    0 |    0 |      1200 |    1 |    0 |   0 |         0 |  0 |
+------------------------'        |      |      |           |      |      |     |           |    |
|  Neil                         0 |    0 |    0 |         0 |    0 |    0 |     |         0 |  0 |
|  Rab                          0 |    0 |    0 |      1200 |    1 |    0 |     |         0 |  0 |
|  Slim Reaper                  0 |    0 |    0 |         0 |    0 |    0 |     |         0 |  0 |
|  TreasonousTrump              0 |    0 |    0 |         0 |    0 |    0 |     |         0 |  0 |
`---------------------------------+------+------+-----------+------+------+-----+-----------+----'
Freq 1 wins the game!
Statistics url: http://www.trenchwars.org/base/129163
MVP: !

[qan]

Thanks Rab. That solves the mystery of that one base game ending before anyone reaches the time limit. Big question: Is there any actual point to having a round limit timer in any permutation of base? If so, what should it be set to? (200% of the total time possible if the flag was non-neutral/held the entire round? Right now it's set to 100% + 1 minute.)

[ogron]

There's a super simple solution to cram ruining games where good sharks maintain their edge:

If any team holds the flag for [decide on a time here] minutes straight, warp everyone back to their respective ears with full energy and prizes and reset mines like on Go.

Decide what the value of a Tek and cramming should be. Should it be worth 2 minutes? 3 minutes? 4 minutes?

You still get the value of cramming well holding for the full amount... then we reset the game like when a base game starts if you hold for x minutes.

So if we decide a tek and cram is worth 3 minutes, you hold for 3 minutes, then the game resets to an FR battle. If you break the cram relatively fast, then clearly it was worth 1 minute... you still want to try to break the cram.

I think 3 minutes is a good time, but I could see valid arguments for 2 or 4. IMO 2 is a bit short, and 4 is a bit long. I like 3.

How hard can it be to just program the matchbot to do the "go! go! go!" reset when either team has held the flag for 3 minutes straight?

I don't support changing the map or any complex, convoluted solutions. Keep the integrity and knowledge of cram and cram breaks, just assign it a time value, and reset if the team can't break.

[Rab]

Thanks Rab. That solves the mystery of that one base game ending before anyone reaches the time limit. Big question: Is there any actual point to having a round limit timer in any permutation of base? If so, what should it be set to? (200% of the total time possible if the flag was non-neutral/held the entire round? Right now it's set to 100% + 1 minute.)

In a competitive game there's no good reason for a game timer. In go base there is because sometimes people all leave before claiming the flag, like the example I posted which was only 4v4 so we decided not to play it. So I'd keep a limit just to prevent an infinite length game and associated bugs. Time required to win (10 or 15 mins) * 3 I think is reasonable.

[Rab]

How hard can it be to just program the matchbot to do the "go! go! go!" reset when either team has held the flag for 3 minutes straight?

- Need a 3 minute timer to start when the round starts which resets when when the flag is captured and when expires causes ResetAndWarpToFlagRoom to occur.
- GoGoGo also does thing like reset the F2 which wouldn't be wanted, so there'd be a need to split the relevant bits into a ResetAndWarpToFlagRoom function to re-use when the timer expires.

[Rab]

I'm struggling to keep track of what changes have been made and to which arena. Can we make the decision to consolidate all the arena types so base/twbd/twlb are always the same (except the game length in base is shorter - if we even want to keep that) and we can just have a single conversation? Atm I think we're making changes and not tracking it well, we might get into a mess.

[RoDNeY]

There's a super simple solution to cram ruining games where good sharks maintain their edge:

If any team holds the flag for [decide on a time here] minutes straight, warp everyone back to their respective ears with full energy and prizes and reset mines like on Go.

Decide what the value of a Tek and cramming should be. Should it be worth 2 minutes? 3 minutes? 4 minutes?

You still get the value of cramming well holding for the full amount... then we reset the game like when a base game starts if you hold for x minutes.

So if we decide a tek and cram is worth 3 minutes, you hold for 3 minutes, then the game resets to an FR battle. If you break the cram relatively fast, then clearly it was worth 1 minute... you still want to try to break the cram.

I think 3 minutes is a good time, but I could see valid arguments for 2 or 4. IMO 2 is a bit short, and 4 is a bit long. I like 3.

How hard can it be to just program the matchbot to do the "go! go! go!" reset when either team has held the flag for 3 minutes straight?

I don't support changing the map or any complex, convoluted solutions. Keep the integrity and knowledge of cram and cram breaks, just assign it a time value, and reset if the team can't break.

On top of the mini victory series in 3-5 minute intervals which I fully support to help diversify basing and promote more high energy play..

Perhaps we should consider getting rid of lower base and maintaining just a spawn zone, mid base and flag room? Or at least modify the current basing map to where the travel time from spawn to mid is lessened. (Purely for only Base/TWBD/TWLB/TWDTB)

This could help to make cram still viable if you get a quick TeK but not mandatory and also promote teams to get back into the action fast. We've all seen how some experienced terrs race from spawn to mid before the rest of their team even dies to get them back into the fight so i think this could help extend flag room battles as well with a terr being able to sneak back into the FR quickly.