Base map and cramming

[CrvenBan]

I actually wasn't around so I didn't know that. I knew some people were toying around with alternative maps, but I've never played or seen one in-game. They were shot down why?

I think it was some year(s) ago that those changes tested when the basing scene consisted of 2 sides, newly cram squads + older cram squads and like 2 squads with other experience(s). Nobody from their side wanted a change

[Sufficient]

I actually wasn't around so I didn't know that. I knew some people were toying around with alternative maps, but I've never played or seen one in-game. They were shot down why?

To be honest I dunno. There was a public push to have a slight basing map change. Suggestions were put out. Maps were tweaked and uploaded. They were subsequently tested ... and I think either the higher ops thought it wasn't worth changing or the public just said, "screw it, let's just deal with the cram".

Maybe now there is enough public for change that it can be successful. At least I hope so. I'm personally in favor of the 2 entrances and access to roof idea.

Edit: The testing was done in some arenas ... maybe called #fr1, #fr2 ... something like that.

[Mythrandir]

Myth ... do you remember that minor changes were suggested in the past ... even tested ... and still shot down. The nub that keeps the terr in place was taken away. The cram hole was enlarged. The jav shot holes were enlarged.

A decent amount of testing was done to all of those and still no changes were made.

I actually wasn't around so I didn't know that. I knew some people were toying around with alternative maps, but I've never played or seen one in-game. They were shot down why?

[PaulOakenfold]

The nub that keeps the terr in place was taken away.

I am the nub that keeps the terr in place.

[Sufficient]

Myth ... do you remember that minor changes were suggested in the past ... even tested ... and still shot down. The nub that keeps the terr in place was taken away. The cram hole was enlarged. The jav shot holes were enlarged.

A decent amount of testing was done to all of those and still no changes were made.

[Mythrandir]

I was suggesting removing all limits rather than adding more.

A smart leviathan would make easy work of any cram. A (pub style) weasel could also disrupt it quite easily) The cram has only arrived as a tactic because the natural ships to prevent it existing as an effective tactic are not allowed. Another "cram buster" would be to use 4 sharks. The limits in twlb have created the cram as a tactic, in (non-pure) pub no one crams, its simply ineffective tactic.

There was a period where two terriers were allowed, people hated it. The pub style weasel has been in ?go base (if I recall correctly) as well, it was ineffective. I don't think that using 4 sharks would be a cram buster, it seems that with 3-4 sharks, one could maintain a permanent repel wall, which would be the advantage for the defending team. Introducing the leviathan can be interesting though.

[Doc Flabby]

IMHO, even with four spids and one special, the cram would still be way too flawed. But whatever works, I don't care. I just want it fixed.

I was suggesting removing all limits rather than adding more.

A smart leviathan would make easy work of any cram. A (pub style) weasel could also disrupt it quite easily) The cram has only arrived as a tactic because the natural ships to prevent it existing as an effective tactic are not allowed. Another "cram buster" would be to use 4 sharks. The limits in twlb have created the cram as a tactic, in (non-pure) pub no one crams, its simply ineffective tactic.

[Mythrandir]

fixed

Why not try it out, get some good basers and have some 8 vs 8 games to test it out, then maybe put it up as ?go base or even ?go base2 so people can choose where they want to play. And then later have a poll so we could maybe have a new map for next league?

It's better than staying here and do nothing.

Sorry for the misspelling, I blame FLaBiN for that. As for testing such maps, I'm all for that but obviously I'm not in charge of that anymore.

[Flub]

Regarding the proposed changes, right now I think that adding a second entrance is too major. If the goal is to make cram slightly less effective, we're looking at minor changes - hence my support of Flub's proposal and proposals similar to that.

fixed

Why not try it out, get some good basers and have some 8 vs 8 games to test it out, then maybe put it up as ?go base or even ?go base2 so people can choose where they want to play. And then later have a poll so we could maybe have a new map for next league?

It's better than staying here and do nothing.

[Mythrandir]

I have trouble understanding people's resistance to adjusting the map a little. I admit I really liked lining; especially as a terr, I enjoyed timing respawns & distributing ships equally on each side of the line. But I like the cram just as much, it has a much stronger emphasis on timing, and it has really taught basers to be much more aggressive on pushing to get inside. I'm sure that a basing team of today could break the 5-year old lining defense in record time.
I think we all agree that the flagroom battle is the most exciting aspect of basing, but a basing game with just flagroom battles does get lame as well, for obvious reasons.

When the cram was new, I used to agree with the nay-sayers: find a way to break it, learn to play more aggressive, push harder, try new ship combinations, etc. But this was 5 years ago! From what I recall, it took at most two months of automated basing to switch from lining to cramming. After 5 years, players have perfected this strategy to impressive degrees, but it is still the same strategy. If nothing changes, the cram is here to stay as dominant as it is.

Regarding the proposed changes, right now I think that adding a second entrance is too major. If the goal is to make cram slightly less effective, we're looking at minor changes - hence my support of Flub's proposal and proposals similar to that.

[Kuukunen]

@Jeenyuss:
No, I didn't misinterpret your post. I didn't attack you or even your whole post. I just attacked the delusion that sports associations don't change the rules. (And also the minor claim that changing layout isn't changing the rules.) I was a bit too hostile, sorry, but it was mostly targeted at Ronn, since your false fact was supporting him, even if the layout thing was not.

The problem is not the map. Its the ship limits.

IMHO, even with four spids and one special, the cram would still be way too flawed. But whatever works, I don't care. I just want it fixed.

squads push to terr downs in FR so they can DEFEND

Fixed. Apparently you weren't playing pre-cram either? Where did I say there should be no defense of any kind? I only said the current system is biased.

Every squad has their strengths. Kuu just cause yours sucks all around doesn't mean we should change the rules. Just cause you like to WB and getting rid of cram makes ur WB "more" effective isn't grounds for changing the map.

Ooh, getting personal, aren't we. Scary.
If you read back, the whole post started after the game where Mambo had a 13 minute cram. Sure, I like to wb and sure, cramming makes wbs less effective, but I don't care about that. If that was what it takes to change the cram, I could promise never to wb in base. Besides, I haven't even played in TWLB this season, I don't care about the leagues too much at the moment, I've been too inactive. I just want to make the game of basing better.

Changing the map is like sending every1 back into the stone age. Plus there is no logic IN changing the map, if your good you would know how to break cram. Guess you didn't watch finals of last season, eh? When pandora/dice showed people how to fight in FR, break Crams, and actually Base.

*sigh*
Good squads do have problems with breaking the cram effectively, it takes too long. And as I said before, it's not in every game. Most of the games are fine. The fact one game didn't have huge crams doesn't mean shit.

Then read what Noah said. They change the maps in FPS games. That's "sending everyone back into the stone age" too. Are you saying they shouldn't do it? Maybe they should just use one map for every game too. Please tell me how this is different from changing the map in base? If someone loses all his skills if the map changes, he didn't have any skills to begin with.

Your whole argument is basically the same many have said before: "It's part of the game, learn to live with it!". And it's just as weak as before. Would you please try to come up with an argument that would actually mean something? Saying "we shouldn't change the rules, because the rules are part of the game" is just fucking idiotic. I said in previous posts something along the lines: "TW doesn't fix the flaws in rules." It was somewhat inaccurate. We have changed stuff, we just don't do it enough. Take spawn time or the introduction of time race instead of 20 minute point game. Do you think those were bad changes? If you're ok with those changes, stop fucking saying: "Don't change it. It's part of the game." and come up with real arguments.

Like I mentioned, they've changed the rules a lot in various sports. Take shot clock in basketball for example, since NBA was mentioned before. (If the attacker doesn't attempt to score in 24 seconds, they lose the possession of the ball.) It was introduced in 1954 to make games less boring and to battle the unbalanced strategy of stalling the game by hogging the ball and not attacking if the team was leading. Of course even with hogging to kill the clock the best team would usually win, but the games were less interesting and the losing team had less chances of making a comeback. They weren't saying: "Well, boohoo! It's part of the game, learn to live with it!" They made the improvement and it worked. Wikipedia says: "Some say that this invention 'saved the sport of basketball' as it had begun to lose fans before its inception."

[eelam <tw>]

re

squads push to terr downs in FR so they can CRAM, if we remove the power of the "cram" you remove the point of getting terr downs. Keep in mind there are spiders and teams who are have strengths and weaknesses. Pandora is the best FR battling squad, we own the FR but we cant CRAM for shit, than you got Dice who sucks ass in the FR but are the masters of cram. Than you got pene who are good in FR and decent in CRAM, and so on and so on. Every squad has their strengths. Kuu just cause yours sucks all around doesn't mean we should change the rules. Just cause you like to WB and getting rid of cram makes ur WB "more" effective isn't grounds for changing the map. Changing the map is like sending every1 back into the stone age. Plus there is no logic IN changing the map, if your good you would know how to break cram. Guess you didn't watch finals of last season, eh? When pandora/dice showed people how to fight in FR, break Crams, and actually Base.

[Doc Flabby]

The problem is not the map. Its the ship limits.

[Facetious]

i was being facetious

????

[Tsumetai]

the base should just be a tube the entire length of the map, about a half screen in width, with one flag on each end, in each spawn area, most points after 20 minutes wins, and that should be twlb!

Sounds bad... AWESOMELY bad. I vote for this.