10 TWLD squads plz

[Exalt]

8 squads is just fine, need some decent replacement squads.

replacement squads will never be decent unless them being replacements also means they have a chance to get into playoffs too, otherwise why the fuck should they care if they win or not

[sonlox]

You guys are making a common mistake most game leagues do, when the pop is starting to decline make leagues invites smaller. This causes high end stacking and giving new people even less of a chance to make leagues and making new players not even wanting to try. To get more people involved is the only way to cut player loss and give new guys a reason to stay around.

most the people pushing for less squads are people who been playing this game for a long time ( tho in 2-3 month stints and go inactive for 6 months) and sit on a high horse.

[Hercules]

I agree with sonlox.

Putting a 8 team limit on leagues is not very practical. When you limit teams, you are doing a variety of things

1. Limiting competition
2. Limiting new player growth
3. Crossing out Old Players / Old squads

I am not really for the idea of only 8 squads competing, I would personally like to see 12/14 squads. Leaning more towards the 14. Every year no matter what we are going to have replacement squads, it is a way of twl. So instead of killing TW, why dont you promote it for newer squads, even the ones from other zones to try? who cares if the game is rape, they will come back stronger the next season.. Isn't that really what we are trying to promote ?

[DankNuggets]

I agree with sonlox.

Putting a 8 team limit on leagues is not very practical. When you limit teams, you are doing a variety of things

1. Limiting competition
2. Limiting new player growth
3. Crossing out Old Players / Old squads

I am not really for the idea of only 8 squads competing, I would personally like to see 12/14 squads. Leaning more towards the 14. Every year no matter what we are going to have replacement squads, it is a way of twl. So instead of killing TW, why dont you promote it for newer squads, even the ones from other zones to try? who cares if the game is rape, they will come back stronger the next season.. Isn't that really what we are trying to promote ?

Yes, but a lot of people seem to want it to be the same 4 teams, year after year competing for TWL. They see it as an insult to beat a team 50-20, that they shouldn't have to face such weaker competition. I don't understand these people either. I've tried to reason with them and they don't see the logic in letting "underqualified" people compete. They'd rather no one actually get better and be able to compete with them.

That's ok i guess, i like creating a team on madden and going 17-0, with 1400 PF, 3 PA. It can be fun staying at the top of the game for a while. But this is really less about having the "best" squad ever, and more about having more than 4-5 teams who compete together for two months.

[Capital Knockers]

I agree with sonlox.

Putting a 8 team limit on leagues is not very practical. When you limit teams, you are doing a variety of things

1. Limiting competition
2. Limiting new player growth
3. Crossing out Old Players / Old squads

I am not really for the idea of only 8 squads competing, I would personally like to see 12/14 squads. Leaning more towards the 14. Every year no matter what we are going to have replacement squads, it is a way of twl. So instead of killing TW, why dont you promote it for newer squads, even the ones from other zones to try? who cares if the game is rape, they will come back stronger the next season.. Isn't that really what we are trying to promote ?

I was pushing for 10/12 hoping that if I didn't mention 14/16 it'd be more likely to happen. You're a brave one herc :wub:

I'd really like some feedback from Mirr on this post, be nice to hear what's cooking with all these people pushing for more LD squads. I really think keeping it at any lower than 10/12 would be a HUGE mistake that we'd majorly regret Mirr

Sirius, AML is Amatuer League. Exalt and some others have been pushing the idea. I think it's great once we're done doing TWL differently this season. There just isn't the resources to do it this Season. Once/If we get one started, sure, lower it to 8 squads.

[Exalt]

I agree with sonlox.

Putting a 8 team limit on leagues is not very practical. When you limit teams, you are doing a variety of things

1. Limiting competition
2. Limiting new player growth
3. Crossing out Old Players / Old squads

I am not really for the idea of only 8 squads competing, I would personally like to see 12/14 squads. Leaning more towards the 14. Every year no matter what we are going to have replacement squads, it is a way of twl. So instead of killing TW, why dont you promote it for newer squads, even the ones from other zones to try? who cares if the game is rape, they will come back stronger the next season.. Isn't that really what we are trying to promote ?

wow, i am going to say this for once... and im shocked...... I agree with hercules

he has really good points and I'll add to that by saying I want the new players to get better... I'm tired of getting online and the only fun games to play are vs like the top 3 squads in twdd, the rest are usually not very good

If the other squads get good, and probably will with TWL experience... well who knows, that means at any given time if I DD well that means there are 10 good squads instead of 5 that are worth playing... thats good for the zone

And yeah knockers maybe after TWL I will do what I can to get AML seriously considered for the next season, and go from there.... I need support with it and a few people have said they would give it... so hopefully after TWL everything will be worked out and AML will be up the following season... and then TWL can go ahead and drop in teams if it wants.... but doing it this season is a bad idea

[pascone]

wow, i am going to say this for once... and im shocked...... I agree with hercules

he has really good points and I'll add to that by saying I want the new players to get better... I'm tired of getting online and the only fun games to play are vs like the top 3 squads in twdd, the rest are usually not very good

If the other squads get good, and probably will with TWL experience... well who knows, that means at any given time if I DD well that means there are 10 good squads instead of 5 that are worth playing... thats good for the zone

And yeah knockers maybe after TWL I will do what I can to get AML seriously considered for the next season, and go from there.... I need support with it and a few people have said they would give it... so hopefully after TWL everything will be worked out and AML will be up the following season... and then TWL can go ahead and drop in teams if it wants.... but doing it this season is a bad idea

it's been like that for like at least 3-4 years, only 3 good squads to play against.

[sonlox]

it's been like that for like at least 3-4 years, only 3 good squads to play against.

That is cause most of the older squads went inactive and team stacking happened.

[Voth]

Let me start off by saying this: There is absolutely NO WAY that TWL can be setup which will satisfy the following goals:

1. To have a competitive league for the premier squads of Trench Wars to prove who is the best in each league.

2. To promote inclusion of newer squads/players into the competitive aspect of Trench Wars.


Those two goals are polar opposites and can not both be fulfilled in one league. So in theory, an AML would be the solution to goal #2, and a small, competitive TWL would be the solution to goal #1.

That being said, AML is a bad idea. It has been attempted before (TWIL) and it was a major bust. AML won't work because we simply don't have enough squads that would be excluded from a competitive TWL that would be interested, able to, or desire to play in an amateur league. Honestly, for the squads that don't make the cut in TWL, TWD is their amateur league. An AML would fail because the leadership on squads that don't make TWL is not strong enough to lead them through ANY kind of league. Sure, there may be a few squads that are decently established who are simply not TWL-caliber, and they would do OK in an AML, but there are certainly not enough of those squads to have a successful league with.

Also, let me reiterate that TWL is and should continue to be a league in which the premier squads in Trench Wars battle to prove who is the best of the best. That means, a game of TWLD between Stray and NC17 is not a competition at all, it's just a nuisance. While, a battle between any two of the top 8 TWLD squads in Trench Wars always has the potential to go either way and makes for a more exciting league.

I am all for bringing new players into the competitive aspect of Trench Wars, but let's face reality: we bring in very few new players to this zone these days, and it is simply not realistic that we can turn all of the new players in this zone into the all stars of tomorrow. We have to appease the veteran population in this zone and give them a competitive league that they can look forward to and will actually have a desire to try in. No one on Stray would want to show up to play NC17 in TWLD, thus eliminating interest in the league. However, Stray vs. Thunder, Stray vs. Dice, Stray vs. Heavy, Stray vs. Quicksand, and so on, are all competitive matchup's which will make the players we have right now actually want to continue playing this league.

(note: the squads names that I used are purely for examples, please don't take offense or anything)

[DankNuggets]

Let me start off by saying this: There is absolutely NO WAY that TWL can be setup which will satisfy the following goals:

1. To have a competitive league for the premier squads of Trench Wars to prove who is the best in each league.

2. To promote inclusion of newer squads/players into the competitive aspect of Trench Wars.


Those two goals are polar opposites and can not both be fulfilled in one league. So in theory, an AML would be the solution to goal #2, and a small, competitive TWL would be the solution to goal #1.

That being said, AML is a bad idea. It has been attempted before (TWIL) and it was a major bust. AML won't work because we simply don't have enough squads that would be excluded from a competitive TWL that would be interested, able to, or desire to play in an amateur league. Honestly, for the squads that don't make the cut in TWL, TWD is their amateur league. An AML would fail because the leadership on squads that don't make TWL is not strong enough to lead them through ANY kind of league. Sure, there may be a few squads that are decently established who are simply not TWL-caliber, and they would do OK in an AML, but there are certainly not enough of those squads to have a successful league with.

Also, let me reiterate that TWL is and should continue to be a league in which the premier squads in Trench Wars battle to prove who is the best of the best. That means, a game of TWLD between Stray and NC17 is not a competition at all, it's just a nuisance. While, a battle between any two of the top 8 TWLD squads in Trench Wars always has the potential to go either way and makes for a more exciting league.

I am all for bringing new players into the competitive aspect of Trench Wars, but let's face reality: we bring in very few new players to this zone these days, and it is simply not realistic that we can turn all of the new players in this zone into the all stars of tomorrow. We have to appease the veteran population in this zone and give them a competitive league that they can look forward to and will actually have a desire to try in. No one on Stray would want to show up to play NC17 in TWLD, thus eliminating interest in the league. However, Stray vs. Thunder, Stray vs. Dice, Stray vs. Heavy, Stray vs. Quicksand, and so on, are all competitive matchup's which will make the players we have right now actually want to continue playing this league.

(note: the squads names that I used are purely for examples, please don't take offense or anything)

OR, you could just expand the playoff to 6-8 teams. There's your "premier" league. If the whole point is just to see who's the best, and not to enjoy structured competition, you don't need a season to begin with, you could just start with the playoffs.

Including more teams means there will obviously be more one-sided games, but not at the expense of cheapening the league. It's understandable that the #1 team doesn't want to play the #16 team (I guess, if you don't like winning or something) but it's not like you won't still be playing the #2,3,4,etc teams as well. And the #16 team will play the 15,14,13,etc; where the games won't be one-sided.

Like you said, it can't simultaneously be both of those options. However, it can still meet both of those goals if you structure it right. Have a longer regular season with ~16 teams. After everyone's played each other, then move on to the playoffs, with 6-8 or however many "premier" teams you want to have. It doesn't even have to be based purely on record if you're worried about the lesser teams making it in off cheap wins. I'm sure there's a way to structure it so that it can accomplish both goals.

To take your stance that it CANNOT possibly do both, is to pick one or the other. And i'm 100% positive you'll pick the one that benefits the least # of people in the game.


As much as people are saying it, TWD is not a league. We play the same 4 teams over and over because no one else wants to play. We play for fun sometimes, and to win others. It's not structured at all, there's no anticipation, no required matches. It's great for a fun game, but if you want the experience of playing in a league, you need the things that TWD lacks.

[Zeebu]

OR, you could just expand the playoff to 6-8 teams. There's your "premier" league. If the whole point is just to see who's the best, and not to enjoy structured competition, you don't need a season to begin with, you could just start with the playoffs.

this is the whole point of leagues, except on the shot about not enjoying structured competition. the point is to enjoy structured competition among the very best squads. if you have 8 squads, youd like the 8th squad to have a chance and dethroning the top dog.

im completely open to the idea of more teams, but keep it reasonable. the cutoff should be made depending on the competition. if there is a good chance that a 10th team could knock out the top team, then make it 10 teams. if a 12th ranked team would play the top team and win one out of every 6 or 7 rounds, then possibly expand to 12.

if you can justify a 16th place team playing against the top line of the top squad and grab 1 out of every 10 or 11 rounds, youve got a case.

the twl season should start with a favorite or two, but the worst squad shouldnt be immediately ruled out of competition either. the last invited squad should have a fairly good chance at at least making playoffs. if that squad cant semirealistically hope for that, they shouldnt be in the league until they are at that high level.

my opinion.

maybe this thinking just isnt valid anymore, but we know this 'invite almost everyone' mentality produces a pretty lackluster twl

[DankNuggets]

maybe this thinking just isnt valid anymore, but we know this 'invite almost everyone' mentality produces a pretty lackluster twl

hey it's not like it's a pub free for all. Even if you don't think the #16 (or w/e #) isn't capable of ever winning or even winning 10% of the time, it's not like they aren't trying, and they aren't going to lose 0-50.

I know this isn't the best example, so don't act like i'm making an air tight analogy right here:

Look at the olympics:

They allow many many teams and individuals into the competetion. Not all of the countries are on the same level as China, USA, etc. Do they fail to show up? Are they not allowed to compete? I think it's fair to say that there are several countries that are not capable of winning a gold medal, EVER. They'll still compete because it's about pride, competition, and representing something besides yourself. These are the reasons one should compete, not just to claim a title. There are tons of titles that you can win in TW, the titles shouldn't be the driving force. It doesn't cheapen the prestige of the olympics when a country's runner get's lapped by the obvious favorite, and that favorite doesn't gripe about having to play "inferior" competition. They don't all start out at the medal round, consider that the playoffs. Just give us (meaning ME and plenty of others) who want to play in a league, but aren't trying to be 1st, a chance to play. It's the strangest thing to have all these people complain about winning, or possibly letting someone else win for a change. I can understand complaints about teams dropping out, but besides that, get off your high horses. Let in every single team that earnestly wants to play have a chance. You know what would happen? The same thing that would happen normally, the best team will win. Only this time you'll have 2x as many people who enjoyed TWL.

[Zeebu]

hey it's not like it's a pub free for all. Even if you don't think the #16 (or w/e #) isn't capable of ever winning or even winning 10% of the time, it's not like they aren't trying, and they aren't going to lose 0-50.

I know this isn't the best example, so don't act like i'm making an air tight analogy right here:

Look at the olympics:

They allow many many teams and individuals into the competetion. Not all of the countries are on the same level as China, USA, etc. Do they fail to show up? Are they not allowed to compete? I think it's fair to say that there are several countries that are not capable of winning a gold medal, EVER. They'll still compete because it's about pride, competition, and representing something besides yourself. These are the reasons one should compete, not just to claim a title. There are tons of titles that you can win in TW, the titles shouldn't be the driving force. It doesn't cheapen the prestige of the olympics when a country's runner get's lapped by the obvious favorite, and that favorite doesn't gripe about having to play "inferior" competition. They don't all start out at the medal round, consider that the playoffs. Just give us (meaning ME and plenty of others) who want to play in a league, but aren't trying to be 1st, a chance to play. It's the strangest thing to have all these people complain about winning, or possibly letting someone else win for a change. I can understand complaints about teams dropping out, but besides that, get off your high horses. Let in every single team that earnestly wants to play have a chance. You know what would happen? The same thing that would happen normally, the best team will win. Only this time you'll have 2x as many people who enjoyed TWL.

fine.

if you want to use the olympics as an example. treat twd as the heats, then the prelims as the twl regular season and the twl playoffs as the finals. only the best make it there too.




like i said, the last couple twls have been pretty bad. lets try inviting fewer people. if it flops, we will know it wont we? if it succeeds, we will know that too.

[Voth]

OR, you could just expand the playoff to 6-8 teams. There's your "premier" league. If the whole point is just to see who's the best, and not to enjoy structured competition, you don't need a season to begin with, you could just start with the playoffs.

Including more teams means there will obviously be more one-sided games, but not at the expense of cheapening the league. It's understandable that the #1 team doesn't want to play the #16 team (I guess, if you don't like winning or something) but it's not like you won't still be playing the #2,3,4,etc teams as well. And the #16 team will play the 15,14,13,etc; where the games won't be one-sided.

Like you said, it can't simultaneously be both of those options. However, it can still meet both of those goals if you structure it right. Have a longer regular season with ~16 teams. After everyone's played each other, then move on to the playoffs, with 6-8 or however many "premier" teams you want to have. It doesn't even have to be based purely on record if you're worried about the lesser teams making it in off cheap wins. I'm sure there's a way to structure it so that it can accomplish both goals.

To take your stance that it CANNOT possibly do both, is to pick one or the other. And i'm 100% positive you'll pick the one that benefits the least # of people in the game.


As much as people are saying it, TWD is not a league. We play the same 4 teams over and over because no one else wants to play. We play for fun sometimes, and to win others. It's not structured at all, there's no anticipation, no required matches. It's great for a fun game, but if you want the experience of playing in a league, you need the things that TWD lacks.

Re-read my post.

[Exalt]

Let me start off by saying this: There is absolutely NO WAY that TWL can be setup which will satisfy the following goals:

1. To have a competitive league for the premier squads of Trench Wars to prove who is the best in each league.

2. To promote inclusion of newer squads/players into the competitive aspect of Trench Wars.


Those two goals are polar opposites and can not both be fulfilled in one league. So in theory, an AML would be the solution to goal #2, and a small, competitive TWL would be the solution to goal #1.

That being said, AML is a bad idea. It has been attempted before (TWIL) and it was a major bust. AML won't work because we simply don't have enough squads that would be excluded from a competitive TWL that would be interested, able to, or desire to play in an amateur league. Honestly, for the squads that don't make the cut in TWL, TWD is their amateur league. An AML would fail because the leadership on squads that don't make TWL is not strong enough to lead them through ANY kind of league. Sure, there may be a few squads that are decently established who are simply not TWL-caliber, and they would do OK in an AML, but there are certainly not enough of those squads to have a successful league with.

Also, let me reiterate that TWL is and should continue to be a league in which the premier squads in Trench Wars battle to prove who is the best of the best. That means, a game of TWLD between Stray and NC17 is not a competition at all, it's just a nuisance. While, a battle between any two of the top 8 TWLD squads in Trench Wars always has the potential to go either way and makes for a more exciting league.

I am all for bringing new players into the competitive aspect of Trench Wars, but let's face reality: we bring in very few new players to this zone these days, and it is simply not realistic that we can turn all of the new players in this zone into the all stars of tomorrow. We have to appease the veteran population in this zone and give them a competitive league that they can look forward to and will actually have a desire to try in. No one on Stray would want to show up to play NC17 in TWLD, thus eliminating interest in the league. However, Stray vs. Thunder, Stray vs. Dice, Stray vs. Heavy, Stray vs. Quicksand, and so on, are all competitive matchup's which will make the players we have right now actually want to continue playing this league.

(note: the squads names that I used are purely for examples, please don't take offense or anything)

before you post, read previous threads about AML first, then you would realize everything you said about it is completely wrong and misguided

before when we were going to set this up THIS season, i had around 20 squads, that are still around in the lower divisions say an immediate YES to this idea, so telling me there are not enough squads is completely rediculous

stop assuming things before you know the truth, study up on things first...

and AML is not TWIL, if you wanted to learn about the structure of the league go read the thread about it... don't just assume you know anything when clearly you don't