Some javelin theory to ponder about

[PjOtTeR]

even if you know 100% of the shots you can still be brutally raped by a cable puller.

You never play 100% of your capability, that's impossible... and yes lag and the likes ruine a lot of that in the jav like you mentioned...

[PaulOakenfold]

Ruine is a great javelin player.

[eelam <tw>]

re

the only way to kill a great jav is by striaght bomb shots, because i know all angles and i know all bounces. There are also some javelins that do some crazy ass shit that make u wonder, like steak and turban with their shots that u dont think is possible. There are reasons for my style of play which i wont give up because that will make me less effective :P , but javelin is a teaming ship, and u have got to trust ur teammates to do well. In pandora i preached teaming and made sure everyone that played were well oiled teamers which is why we had alot of success. Now in thunder teaming is much more easier minus zidane (I LOVE U NO HOMO) but i know that the only way i ususally die is from a close bomb from enemy = easy kills for my teamamtes like Fludd who are always hovering, which makes my life alot easier because i know when i die, the guy who killed will die as well.

[Summa]

Its interesting reading different people's philosophy on javing. I don't jav much anymore, nor really play much in general, but when I did I held a much different philosophy than all of those that I have read previously. It was never about killing for me, I figured if I stayed alive long enough some of my shots would connect and some of my assbullets would take advantage of some low energy player. My mentality was that I would never fly into a situation if I did not have 2-3 potential escape routes in place (barring there are situations where u go in retardedly on accident, for a teammate, or to try and rambo it). Maybe that is the reason why I never became that amazing @ javs .

As for the "which league is better" strife. They all have their appealing parts and their blemishes. One of the more appealing aspects about javs and wbs in particular is that a single player can dominate the game even at a high level of competition, whereas in basing (barring you're a jav who gets a teamfer) it is a game where you are very much dependent upon your team and how they perform alongside you.

Personally I would break each league down into 3 categories, a 4th would be lag but I'm just going to assume that is constant for all leagues and rule it out of this. Skill: Obviously every league hinges on the skill of the players and what degree of mastery they have in their ship. Some more so than others imo. Teamwork: Teaming is an essential aspect in each league, but to far greater degrees in some than others. Awareness: In honor of ph on this one who tells our spiders their madden AWR score would be 5, this is somewhat what kim was talking about. A conceptual understanding of strategies, shot angles, each ship and player's role etc. etc.

WBs: 50% skill 35% teaming 15% AWR - Skill is the dominant factor in WBs, and anyone who denies it is stupid imo. Teaming can make up for significant portions of skill, but a skillful team that teams to its maximum potential is unbeatable. Conceptually there is some needed in wbs, but I feel it is the least conceptual game. It is not as if I am saying that dumbasses play wb, I am just putting it in comparison to the other leagues in which I think you have to be a bit more cognizant and a little less reactionary.

Javs: 40% skill 30% teaming 20% AWR - I put teaming on par with skill in javs for my own personal beliefs that you can out-team a better squad in javs. Take it or leave it. I don't feel there is much to explain here, but I can go into further depth if people want me to. I think conceptually there is a lot more to take account for due to the extra dimensions of the game (i.e. wall bounce, bullets, walls, explosion radius etc. etc.) as opposed to wbs where it is thrust, bullets, and asteroids.

Basing: 40% skill 30% Teaming 30% AWR - What can I say, dice has had the best players and has won, that's simple facts. Thus i cannot knock skill from being the dominant factor in basing. Teamwork is an absolute necessity in basing seeing how you essentially need 8 people on the exact same page constantly to be remotely successful on a high level of competition. However I think basing is far and away more of a thinkers game, there is much more strategy and much more to take account for due to the increase of players and the variance of ship.

Mind you this is just the way I view the leagues. I think basing is more of a thinker's game, javs is more of a teamers game, and wbs is for everyone else.

[kthx]

I don't know how it is in other leagues because I mainly just play warbird, and that is really all I have ever played since I started playing TW, even though I based and javved here and there on some squads. I can't speak for these other leagues but the best warbirds have to think about a lot during the entire game.

When I personally am in a match I generally play with people that have similar styles to me, and most of the time it is people I have been playing with for a very long time (quicksand). So I know most of their habits in games and tend to play off of those to get my kills. I know how they rush, how they dodge, and when I die when I am with them, I know exactly where to go when I respawn about 95% of the time. The reason good people play with good people and there is such a difference in skill between squads is really just a trust based relationship in game. I can take more chances if I have someone I trust near me on my team because I know that he won't let them rush me, and they would expect the same thing from me, otherwise I would almost be forced to play more defensively and take less shots because I would be worried that I would shoot and get rushed.

This also ties into when you are outnumbered with a teammate you trust, you should both automatically know that when you are outnumbered and surrounded to both rush the weak side of the ring to get the kill and escape without dying. On top of this, the best warbirds also count seconds, I always do counts when people shoot so I know about how much time I have to rush and shoot before he has the chance to fire back. You have to take into consideration the angle you rush him because if he has a better angle on the rush he will be able to recharge much faster than you will because he will have more time to stop and recharge while you have to keep boosting to get to the same point that he is at.

There is a physics and science to every league, and I know warbirds very very well from playing for such a long time. I would have to disagree with your ideas on %'s for warbirds anyways Summa. I think that team warbirding is basically - 25% trust, 25% skill, 25% ship knowledge, 15% lag/luck, 5% reaction time (spawns) and 5% being able to find a coord. Even some pretty bad warbirds can play well on a good team.

[Joe_]

Its interesting reading different people's philosophy on javing. I don't jav much anymore, nor really play much in general, but when I did I held a much different philosophy than all of those that I have read previously. It was never about killing for me, I figured if I stayed alive long enough some of my shots would connect and some of my assbullets would take advantage of some low energy player. My mentality was that I would never fly into a situation if I did not have 2-3 potential escape routes in place (barring there are situations where u go in retardedly on accident, for a teammate, or to try and rambo it). Maybe that is the reason why I never became that amazing @ javs .

As for the "which league is better" strife. They all have their appealing parts and their blemishes. One of the more appealing aspects about javs and wbs in particular is that a single player can dominate the game even at a high level of competition, whereas in basing (barring you're a jav who gets a teamfer) it is a game where you are very much dependent upon your team and how they perform alongside you.

Personally I would break each league down into 3 categories, a 4th would be lag but I'm just going to assume that is constant for all leagues and rule it out of this. Skill: Obviously every league hinges on the skill of the players and what degree of mastery they have in their ship. Some more so than others imo. Teamwork: Teaming is an essential aspect in each league, but to far greater degrees in some than others. Awareness: In honor of ph on this one who tells our spiders their madden AWR score would be 5, this is somewhat what kim was talking about. A conceptual understanding of strategies, shot angles, each ship and player's role etc. etc.

WBs: 50% skill 35% teaming 15% AWR - Skill is the dominant factor in WBs, and anyone who denies it is stupid imo. Teaming can make up for significant portions of skill, but a skillful team that teams to its maximum potential is unbeatable. Conceptually there is some needed in wbs, but I feel it is the least conceptual game. It is not as if I am saying that dumbasses play wb, I am just putting it in comparison to the other leagues in which I think you have to be a bit more cognizant and a little less reactionary.

Javs: 40% skill 30% teaming 20% AWR - I put teaming on par with skill in javs for my own personal beliefs that you can out-team a better squad in javs. Take it or leave it. I don't feel there is much to explain here, but I can go into further depth if people want me to. I think conceptually there is a lot more to take account for due to the extra dimensions of the game (i.e. wall bounce, bullets, walls, explosion radius etc. etc.) as opposed to wbs where it is thrust, bullets, and asteroids.

Basing: 40% skill 30% Teaming 30% AWR - What can I say, dice has had the best players and has won, that's simple facts. Thus i cannot knock skill from being the dominant factor in basing. Teamwork is an absolute necessity in basing seeing how you essentially need 8 people on the exact same page constantly to be remotely successful on a high level of competition. However I think basing is far and away more of a thinkers game, there is much more strategy and much more to take account for due to the increase of players and the variance of ship.

Mind you this is just the way I view the leagues. I think basing is more of a thinker's game, javs is more of a teamers game, and wbs is for everyone else.

I'd have to agree with you here humid, but I'm sort of biased considering you taught me to jav in all. I'm always one trying to survive and being on TeKs, you've learned that your not always or even ever going to have your teamates around to help you.

[Exalt]

Personally I would break each league down into 3 categories, a 4th would be lag but I'm just going to assume that is constant for all leagues and rule it out of this. Skill: Obviously every league hinges on the skill of the players and what degree of mastery they have in their ship. Some more so than others imo. Teamwork: Teaming is an essential aspect in each league, but to far greater degrees in some than others. Awareness: In honor of ph on this one who tells our spiders their madden AWR score would be 5, this is somewhat what kim was talking about. A conceptual understanding of strategies, shot angles, each ship and player's role etc. etc.

WBs: 50% skill 35% teaming 15% AWR - Skill is the dominant factor in WBs, and anyone who denies it is stupid imo. Teaming can make up for significant portions of skill, but a skillful team that teams to its maximum potential is unbeatable. Conceptually there is some needed in wbs, but I feel it is the least conceptual game. It is not as if I am saying that dumbasses play wb, I am just putting it in comparison to the other leagues in which I think you have to be a bit more cognizant and a little less reactionary.

good stuff... however in wb i would say although its not REQUIRED like in other leagues, you CAN raise the AWR percentage for some players/teams/squads to much higher....

whereas each player has a role and knows what to do in each and every situation... it is entirely possible to draw out strategies ala professional sports "plays" in a warbird and pull it off effectively in a warbird

quicksand used to do this, not always, but it did sometimes pull off specific "plays" that each player knew what to do and how to react... which eventually led to the opposing team being either out-teamed or at a disadvantage as far as positioning, which made killing much easier

I know most squads do not do this but it is possible, it just depends on how much "strategy" you think you can come up with, and how well your teammates grasp that "strategy" and are able to perform it

[PH]

Javs: 40% skill 30% teaming 20% AWR

the other 10% goes into cable pulling, i assume? gotta be quick and precise with that, after all.

[Downfall]

A conceptual understanding of strategies, shot angles, each ship and player's role etc. etc.

Basing: 40% skill 30% Teaming 30% AWR - What can I say, dice has had the best players and has won, that's simple facts. Thus i cannot knock skill from being the dominant factor in basing. Teamwork is an absolute necessity in basing seeing how you essentially need 8 people on the exact same page constantly to be remotely successful on a high level of competition. However I think basing is far and away more of a thinkers game, there is much more strategy and much more to take account for due to the increase of players and the variance of ship.

Nice read. But as for the basing percentage I would have to disagree. Effective basers are more AWR if by awareness you mean knowing where the bursts bounces so you can dodge it, predicting a bomb/rush mine by a shark so you can dodge it and predicting camp positions or avoiding the shark with no reps to attack the other shark with reps to mess up timing. Teamwork is mainly team rushes such as breaking cram or cornering enemys by trapping them. In basing, taking shots for a team member doesnt happen as much as opposed to javs and wbs. Skill is ofc important but without the rest your not mvping that bd :turned: .
Basing: Skill: 25% Teaming: 35% Awareness: 40 %

[Summa]

I don't know how it is in other leagues because I mainly just play warbird, and that is really all I have ever played since I started playing TW, even though I based and javved here and there on some squads. I can't speak for these other leagues but the best warbirds have to think about a lot during the entire game.

When I personally am in a match I generally play with people that have similar styles to me, and most of the time it is people I have been playing with for a very long time (quicksand). So I know most of their habits in games and tend to play off of those to get my kills. I know how they rush, how they dodge, and when I die when I am with them, I know exactly where to go when I respawn about 95% of the time. The reason good people play with good people and there is such a difference in skill between squads is really just a trust based relationship in game. I can take more chances if I have someone I trust near me on my team because I know that he won't let them rush me, and they would expect the same thing from me, otherwise I would almost be forced to play more defensively and take less shots because I would be worried that I would shoot and get rushed.

This also ties into when you are outnumbered with a teammate you trust, you should both automatically know that when you are outnumbered and surrounded to both rush the weak side of the ring to get the kill and escape without dying. On top of this, the best warbirds also count seconds, I always do counts when people shoot so I know about how much time I have to rush and shoot before he has the chance to fire back. You have to take into consideration the angle you rush him because if he has a better angle on the rush he will be able to recharge much faster than you will because he will have more time to stop and recharge while you have to keep boosting to get to the same point that he is at.

There is a physics and science to every league, and I know warbirds very very well from playing for such a long time. I would have to disagree with your ideas on %'s for warbirds anyways Summa. I think that team warbirding is basically - 25% trust, 25% skill, 25% ship knowledge, 15% lag/luck, 5% reaction time (spawns) and 5% being able to find a coord. Even some pretty bad warbirds can play well on a good team.

I would have to say wbs is the league I have the least knowledge of, and I could be dead wrong, but the reason I consider it a game of "less thought" than the others is because it is a very 1 dimensional game. You have thrust and bullets, bullets go in a straight line, there are asteroids. It is certainly the least complex in nature. However this being said, people have mastered such a simple game at a level near near perfection. Which is why, for me, I have skill as the dominating factor. I did limit myself to 3 categories also, whereas you expanded on such, so my breakdowns aren't in any way perfect. Anywayz back on topic: I just think that there are more dimensions to the other games that need to be considered and require more thought than wbs, but in no way is it mindless if thats what you thought I was saying.

[paradise!]

I think I will disagree with you Summa on the percentages of both jav and wb. In all objectiveness, I really think putting skill at wb is 50% is a bit much. I mean think about it, the bullets are moving too incredibly fast, and there is oppurtunity for alot more straying. I would have to put wb and Jav on same skill level at least. I mean in jav things are in a much closed in space, you are face to face with your opponent alot, which encompasses more skill in the area of predicting. However in wb, you lay back and shoot using radar, it's just boring, although rushing in wb can be accounted for but they can easily shift away from the battle field w/o interacting with anyone in the vicinity. In jav if you try to shift away like that there is a strong chance someone will be around the area.

[kthx]

Im not attacking you here, I am just saying I disagree, there is really a lot of thought that goes into warbirding. A straight shot in pool across the table is sometimes harder than hitting an angle on a ball to knock it in, and the same goes for warbirding and javs for instance. And when you take out the prox factor of javs and add in that warbird is one shot kill (which some people find less skilled) it really means that your 10 deaths really go that much faster, and mean that much more. The ability for a warbird to play aggressive for his first seven deaths and get some early kills for his team and then play safely on his last 3 while luring the enemy towards him because hes high on deaths while his team can vulch these players is a really good characteristic in a warbird. It isn't just shooting in a straight line when you consider it is a game largely played on radar, where you are trying to make guesses on where people will go, hit angles on people "behind" a rock, and look for the guy who is off to the side on radar as he is generally the high man on deaths. The strategy is in all leagues, and in my opinion warbird would be one of the most strategic of the leagues.

[Lag.Com]

Yeah Kim this is the sort of stuff I preach to my squadmates all the time (and why I mourn the loss of great javs who actually tried the unusual stuff heh). Playing the Javelin well is all about information; what your opponent can do is important, but the closest you can ever get to that is what he THINKS he can do and what you THINK he can do... if you know he's on low or high energy you can strategise appropriately, if his ping is low you know where he is and which direction he is facing quite accurately, and so on. The less information you have, the more options your opponent MIGHT have, the less you can quickly come up with a plan to kill them.

Which is why so many people just shoot you in the face, I guess. It requires a little less brainwork.

Still, I'm interested in this kind of theorising. Feel free to open up a chat for this, I'll join in.

[Shan]

the other 10% goes into cable pulling, i assume? gotta be quick and precise with that, after all.

I lovwe you ph!! jav is fucking newbie shi thole fuckface ship.

[LaG KiLLeR]

Its interesting reading different people's philosophy on javing. I don't jav much anymore, nor really play much in general, but when I did I held a much different philosophy than all of those that I have read previously. It was never about killing for me, I figured if I stayed alive long enough some of my shots would connect and some of my assbullets would take advantage of some low energy player. My mentality was that I would never fly into a situation if I did not have 2-3 potential escape routes in place (barring there are situations where u go in retardedly on accident, for a teammate, or to try and rambo it). Maybe that is the reason why I never became that amazing @ javs .

You raise a good point, in terms of potential escape routes, or even reading the given situation. For instance, risky shots can be taken when there are accessible escape routes, or maybe when your opponent(s) are low on energy, knowing that you have enough energy to pull something outta your ass without dying (minimal damages aka opportunity cost right?). Or even, luring the opposing team with a flat-out (what I call) "bait" shot that causes them to rush you (at the same time, clump) and knowing that they have low energy, lure them into a situation where your teammates can maximize on it, like an easy 2-3fer....but at the same time, that requires your teammates to be able to jump on an opportunity and follow through, means having trust and good teammates.


I'll give you guys one of my secrets, it's lev shots. Probably the most practical shots because when you hit the lev, even if you don't kill the opponent, you still deal damage to them. In that case, your teammates can maximize on the opportunity and kill him, you can stall it out and replenish energy, or you can easily escape because your opponent has no energy (often times, people just bullet rush you, wasting their own energy lol).

Speaking of which, this leads to another theory....shot selection. When firing shots, my former theory when I played lots of baseelim and twjd back in around 2002/2003, was to make sure that every shot counted. I wouldn't fire strays for the hell of it, basically I wouldn't fire anything that didn't have a net benefit. Nowadays, people just lob up whatever bullshit and due to the lack of opportunity-seizing javelins these days, they can get away with it. Back in the days though, people would easily maximize on a stupid shot...you'd have sika/domi/psymorph/symbol/etc, all on your ass when you throw up a useless shot (and you still see this today, but not to the same extent). So this theory isn't as applicable in modern times as it was back then, but it's still smart to think shots through, what are you trying to execute? Are you trying to damage the opponent for your teammates, kill the opponent yourself (if you're using a lot/all of your energy, you have to make sure you have an escape route or trustable teammates, etc). It's actually a lot of fun to talk about these kinds of things, glad you brought this up Kim




EDITED to add this: Another secret to avoid stray shots is staying away from "stray areas"...like for instance, when you've killed off the entire opposing team and they're coming into base firing stray shots, don't put yourself in an open area or hug walls. areas where strays will likely fly by. Often times, when you see a blue on radar in these given situations, you can almost anticipate a stray near you. If you're in the right place, it will either lev near you (not enough to kill or damage you much), etc. And vice versa, you can take the other situation when your whole team is coming up from spawn. You can anticipate stray shots, this is all common sense so I'll end this point here. But, avoiding standing by lev locations aka hugging walls or completely open areas will reduce the possibility of dying as a result of a stray. Also, clumping is another problem...people are more inclined to fire (stray or not) at those who are clumped together because the potential outcome of 2 kills is better than that of 1.