About Roster Lock + Disbanding Squads

[Eric is God]

Damn this is one of those cant win situations. I feel for the players that stuck with Cripples and in this very specific situation the league rules maybe arnt fair. The problem is I dont see anyway to solve this problem that wont cause even worse problems down the road. Locking rosters midway through the season is a good idea overall, that much should be obvious. If you lock them late in the season its relatively pointless since there will be too much squadhopping. Locking it too early is also a bad idea. Using myself as an example, I am no longer on Elusive beause of personality conflicts with a few people. I dont think anyone was happy with how things turned out, so if rosteres were locked in the first few weeks; active, competitive, loyal people like me would be left in the cold.

I dont think the league operators can make it their policy to make rulings on a case by case basis. There are way to many squad and player related movements every season for that to be efficient. Also, it wouldnt take a huge amount of effort for dishonest players to lie and manipulate their way into convincing league operators their circumstances are unique and deserve special treatment. My point is that there will always be players and squads that bend the rules in their favor or get unfairly punished on a monthly basis. There simply is no better way to deal with this though. Epi and Pusher arnt idiots, im sure they have thought up most situations that could occur and tried to set rules that deal fairly with the majority of them. Maybe Cripples didnt deserve their fate, it happens and it sucks, but blame should not be laid at the feet of Epi and Pusher.

Who really caused this to occur? In the end the finger should be pointed at the unloyal and inactive Cripples members, not the league ops.

[Sufficient]

Read my post above ... I think those 2 points would solve most of the problems.

And if you think that players who squadhop late in the season should not be able to play in playoffs then some rule could probably be implemented for that too.

[Gabraham]

yeah, but to get it to work, they'd have to actually go by the rules, rather than do whatever they want at any given time. And we all know that'll never happen. In TW, league isn't actually about fairness and competetion, it's more like a made-for-TV movie that keeps your attention but just leaves your mind hollow afterwards.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

Originally posted by Gabraham
In TW, league isn't actually about fairness and competetion, it's more like a made-for-TV movie that keeps your attention but just leaves your mind hollow afterwards.

I'm sorry, but that's the shittiest analogy I've heard all week.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

I've kind of kept quiet on this subject--now's the time to break that silence.

Gerbz, you know it's all love. I've respected the Crips ever since I started playing this game those three lonely years ago. At that time, they were the one of the most innovative forces in TW.

However, if you noticed that there was a flaw in the rules before the season (and Epi and Push did a good job of putting the rules out LONG before the season actually began), why didn't you speak up? There was a good two or three-month span there that something could've been done. There was another good month or so (when leagues finally started) that Crips was having attendance problems for games. I'm sorry, but shouldn't this all have been telegraphed about three or four months in advance? It's like finding out that you have a congenital heart defect, doing nothing about it, having a heart attack, then blaming the doctor who told you about it back when you could've done something about it.

[Epinephrine]

Originally posted by sTuPiD-gErBiL
actually, you're missing the point. the actual discussion at hand is a glaring oversight in a rule that caused what it was designed to prevent. we could argue systematic technicalities all day, but would accomplish nothing because most people don't care to hear about that. they want either a sympathetic or a scornful (or a nonchalant) standpoint to throw themselves behind because it makes things all that much easier to put a personality to an afflicted statistic.

the focus is a flaw in the system. i believe the current solution is full of shit, regardless if it happened to cripples or some other squad. i believe there is a much more effective solution, which has been tried and proven in the RSHL (hockeyzone). and after presenting you with their format, and their logic behind it, you will hopefully understand why this current solution does not work and rather causes more problems than it fixes.

(paraphrased from http://www.rshl.org/rshl/leaguerules.shtml)

* players are assigned a small suspension for teamhopping.

* if a teamhopper's old team collapses while the teamhopper is still suspended, then the suspension is increased dramatically.

* players who stayed with their team until it collapsed may switch teams after and be subject to a very small suspension

* if this happens around roster lock time and causes a team to collapse after the lock has occurred, then the remaining players have one week to be recruited (and are still subject to the small suspension). HOWEVER, all transactions must be approved by the league to prevent team stacking or league imbalance.

the last part isn't on the rules page itself, but it's the precedent that has been set from past encounters.

hope that puts things in perspective mattey. i'd rather have you understand my standpoint instead of thinking you do.

I completely fail to see how a system which is so completely arbitrary and open to specific judgement calls on a case by case basis would be efficient or effective for TWL. TWL is much larger than RSHL for one. And for another if the rules aren't exactly set completely in stone (and open to massive intepretation or judgement calls) then there will be endless scandals on every single call that the TWOps make.

Everytime I see someone complain about the rules I am reminded by the fact that the rules were up a full FOUR AND A HALF months before the league even started, and during all of that time Pusher and I made it absolutely and completely clear that we were up for suggestions.

-Epi

[bloodzombie]

Originally posted by Epinephrine
Everytime I see someone complain about the rules I am reminded by the fact that the rules were up a full FOUR AND A HALF months before the league even started, and during all of that time Pusher and I made it absolutely and completely clear that we were up for suggestions.

-Epi

I think that about wraps up this discussion.

[sTuPiD-gErBiL]

conc, some things you just don't think about until it happens. like it said earlier, the foundation of a great rules structure is its ability to adapt as situations arise that call for it.

this is one of those times

[sTuPiD-gErBiL]

Originally posted by Epinephrine
I completely fail to see how a system which is so completely arbitrary and open to specific judgement calls on a case by case basis would be efficient or effective for TWL. TWL is much larger than RSHL for one. And for another if the rules aren't exactly set completely in stone (and open to massive intepretation or judgement calls) then there will be endless scandals on every single call that the TWOps make.

Everytime I see someone complain about the rules I am reminded by the fact that the rules were up a full FOUR AND A HALF months before the league even started, and during all of that time Pusher and I made it absolutely and completely clear that we were up for suggestions.

-Epi

i fail to see how that structure is so open. everything seems pretty set except the league's discretion in allowing stranded squad members to change teams.

and just because rules are set in stone a FULL FOUR AND A HALF MONTHS etc etc, doesn't mean they were necessarily correct. it just means they seemed good enough to be used until proven otherwise.

[Sufficient]

The TWL ops seem to just ignore or change rules as they please. I have not seen the eligibility rules or roster rules enforced even though the rules were put out 4.5 months ago as you say. Yes, I know the reason you give is bc the bots don't enforce it. However, it is the responsibility of the TWL ops to create comprehensive rules which are to be followed by all squads and enforced by the appropriate ppl. These rules are simply not being followed or are given, to what I believe, are silly excuses (ie. bots do not enforce it).

When rules are created they should be enforced (in whatever manner deemed appropriate). Simple stuff.

If things are so centered around the bots working, can't the TWL refs just host manually? I know that's a bit more work, but wouldn't that lessen the lag and the TWL refs could actually enforce all the rules.

[Jonesy]

Originally posted by MaGi kOz
KEEP THE COMPETITION! REPLACE US WITH SQUADS LIKE HCK-! WOOOOOOO!

War Angels is nothing like HCK, thank you very much.

1. - HCK was run by a moronic 8 yr old kid named Ivan.
- War Angels is run by a good player that has been around for a while and isn't a moron.

2. - HCK was around for 2 months and only based shitty squads
to get to the top ot TWBD.
- War Angels has been around for a year and will base anyone
who is up for a match when we got enough people online.

3. - HCK had just picked up a shit load of new members and most
of them were unloyal.
- The people in War Angels, excluding the Bohems that joined
us have pretty much been in the squad the entire time that its
been alive and are a very loyal group of friends.

4. - HCK dissolved after loosing one match in TWLB
- If War Angels gets into TWLB we will stay no matter how
many defeats we have and work towards improving rather
than calling it quits.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

Originally posted by sTuPiD-gErBiL
conc, some things you just don't think about until it happens.

But it had been happening within Crips for months. Recruiting active players should have been a priority by the second week after you were having attendance issues.

Originally posted by sTuPiD-gErBiL
it just means they seemed good enough to be used until proven otherwise.

That's a very valid point, but the league's already underway. Changing the rules halfway through the season sets a dangerous precedent.

[Force of Nature]

Originally posted by sTuPiD-gErBiL
actually, you're missing the point. the actual discussion at hand is a glaring oversight in a rule that caused what it was designed to prevent. we could argue systematic technicalities all day, but would accomplish nothing because most people don't care to hear about that. they want either a sympathetic or a scornful (or a nonchalant) standpoint to throw themselves behind because it makes things all that much easier to put a personality to an afflicted statistic.

the focus is a flaw in the system. i believe the current solution is full of shit, regardless if it happened to cripples or some other squad. i believe there is a much more effective solution, which has been tried and proven in the RSHL (hockeyzone). and after presenting you with their format, and their logic behind it, you will hopefully understand why this current solution does not work and rather causes more problems than it fixes.

(paraphrased from http://www.rshl.org/rshl/leaguerules.shtml)

* players are assigned a small suspension for teamhopping.

* if a teamhopper's old team collapses while the teamhopper is still suspended, then the suspension is increased dramatically.

* players who stayed with their team until it collapsed may switch teams after and be subject to a very small suspension

* if this happens around roster lock time and causes a team to collapse after the lock has occurred, then the remaining players have one week to be recruited (and are still subject to the small suspension). HOWEVER, all transactions must be approved by the league to prevent team stacking or league imbalance.

the last part isn't on the rules page itself, but it's the precedent that has been set from past encounters.

hope that puts things in perspective mattey. i'd rather have you understand my standpoint instead of thinking you do.

I really haven't read this thread until this day and having read all the replies and arguments so far I am inclined to express some falicies of certain arguments presented above.

Firstly, rules should not be set in stone. If rules were set in stone, any loopholes that have been discovered will be exploited tremendously. Therefore, rules have to be rigid yet malluable to certain extreme circumstances that arise.

An example of this is indicated when epi himself changed the 48 hour rule to 60 hour rule for the times being accepted. Surely, this wasn't the original rules yet due to the observations during the implementation phase, the rule needed to be modified.

Secondly, the argument that "the rules were posted 4.5 months ago and therefore any discrepencies you have now will be ignored is also flawed. Some things cannot be fathamed that early in advance espically when new concepts are being introduced for the first time. We are all not expert project managers here, and therefore, the failure to see the shorthandedness of certain rules are quite possible even with a 4.5 half month waiting period. Take the columbia accident for example. A piece of foam to be able to severely damage the vital components of a space shuttle was unheard off and even unimaged off until it was proved otherwise. Clearly the project managers and the staff at NASA had a great amount of time planning for every circumstance yet still a crucial detail was overlooked. Some things were assumed to be true until it was proven false. Therefore, having the rules 4.5 months in advance is a good step but however it isn't the be all and end all of all discussions.

In terms of the cripples incident, clearly there has been some injustice done to some of the squadmembers and gerbz been trying to point of over the whole thread. I think he's done a good job at explaining his point of view and therefore, won't proceed into more details for now. Another thing to note is the fact that this problem can only arise around the roster lock . For those that don't clearly let me explain:
A long time before, the lock when a squad dissolves, the squadmembers have adequate time to join other squads. Whereas after the roster lock, there is no recruiting allowed therefore, when a squad dissolves it knows for a fact that no memebers can get into league squads and the motivation to "jumpship" is non-existant. Therefore, this is a problem that has definetely been overlooked in the creation of the rules. And yes, even after 4.5 months them being posted hasn't been brought forward. That does not in anyway mean that this isn't a flaw in the system that needs to be revisied.

Now, taking what I've said before into account. It can be seen that if you are going to argue that should never be exceptions you should not in any way bring pressure on cripples to leave the league they wish to participate in regardless of the outcome of each match. Sure, they aren't being competitive but hell its well within the rules! And the rules are set in stone right?

However, if you do realise that this is a situation which requires further discussion and possible modifications of the rules then you can bring into question the fact another rule that needs to be modified is to have a minimum of 8 ppl in your roster to participate in the base league. In which case, that rule too needs to be revised or ammended.

The suggestions give above taken from the RSHL rules seems to have some merit. I know epi dismissed them without much discussion but I think they should bee looked at serioulsy. The method how gerbz has stated the suggestions are definetely vague but that doesn't mean they cannot be refined to be more precise. Instead of words such as "increased tremondously", "small" etc, they can be substituted with objective time frames such as 4 weeks/2 weeks or 4 matches/2matches. This is definetely open for further discussion.

[bloodzombie]

One squad out of 16 has issues. This squad also had attendance issues before the lock.

If my team wasn't showing up for games, and I saw the lock coming up, and my leaders weren't doing anything about it, I woulda bailed too.

[sTuPiD-gErBiL]

Originally posted by bloodzombie
One squad out of 16 has issues. This squad also had attendance issues before the lock.

don't forget hck. don't forget paladen. i'm sure there's more, but i'm not up for sifting through old threads right now.

Originally posted by bloodzombie
If my team wasn't showing up for games, and I saw the lock coming up, and my leaders weren't doing anything about it, I woulda bailed too.

well i'm not you, and you're not me. the difference would be that i want to try to fix problems and you seem to want to escape them. just like i'd rather crips stuck around in league until this newly discovered exploit in the system is fixed... and you'd rather cripples just dropped, leaving the door wide open for this to happen again and again, just so that i'd shut up and make your online reading time a fraction more pleasurable.

Originally posted by Force of NatureThe suggestions give above taken from the RSHL rules seems to have some merit. I know epi dismissed them without much discussion but I think they should bee looked at serioulsy. The method how gerbz has stated the suggestions are definetely vague but that doesn't mean they cannot be refined to be more precise. Instead of words such as "increased tremondously", "small" etc, they can be substituted with objective time frames such as 4 weeks/2 weeks or 4 matches/2matches. This is definetely open for further discussion.

well actually, the RSHL does use specific suspension times. they use the 10-30-50 system.
Switching teams under normal circumstances = suspended for 30% of the season (rshl = 6 games roughly)
Switching teams then old team folding = suspended for 50% of the season (rshl = roughly 10 games)
Switchg teams after your team folded = suspended for 10% of the season (rshl = roughly 2-3 games)

sorry i didn't clarify on that. i figured that if the rshl rules were going to be discussed, then the actual time length of the suspensions would be the first thing to be changed. from my experience in hockeyzone, these rules have worked really well. teamhopping is pretty much at a minimum, since you pretty much are going to miss a third of the season by switching. and if someone causes a team to collapse, then they'll be lucky if they're unsuspended in time to help their new team in the playoffs.