Another Basing Issue

[Stabwound]

I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to find a way to make all 3 bursts go down the flagroom entrance.

[Mattey]

Originally posted by Randedl
Furthermore, I will go so far as to say that a terr has no purpose effecting a flag room battle while hiding in a corner, the terrier's purpose is to be a ship to attach to, not a major offensive weapon.

Hah, I hope Mythrandir posts in this thread.



I hate your ideas for changing basing Rand.

[bloodzombie]

The only suggestion here that I like is the one that can't be done, which is limiting the life of the burst once it bounces.


I can understand where rand is coming from, but at the same time, bursting is a big part of what makes the terr fun, and if you're creating turnovers but taking away some of the fun, that just doesn't seem like a fair trade.

[Galleleo]

Making the burst less powerfull is bs. What happens when your team is down, ie a jav shot your team in cram. The only way for your team to keep this cram, and fr is for the terr to fly over and burst, with burst that dont hurt people much, ie a spider bullet, will mean that the enm will still fly in and the terr got pretty useless. I totally see no inbalance whatsoever.

Btw, when you are attacking terr. the best thing to do is safe your burst, lay a portal rush in the entrance when there is an oppurtinity and burst. do it at the right time, and in the right place your burst will go in fr, and will be a danger to any of the enm's I see no point in this discussion.

[Miku19]

I like malladrin's idea, it could actually be the weakening to cram we were looking for!

[Epinephrine]

Remove bursts, make all damage non-random, remove shrap (or at least in the very least make it go slower and make it non-random direction and set number for shrap so that you always start with a set number and can't green anymore), and remove all full charge greens.

Do everything possible to remove all randomness to the game, and you will have your perfectly fair game. That would be great I think. Then again a lot of people would be against it because it's the randomness that they find fun, or at least allows them to do well (when everything is set, it's all about calculating and playing smart, with random you can get very lucky breaks easily).

That said I agree bursts suck, and they may help out with minimizing the power of the cram, then again they might not. More often than not, a laggy shark is much more effective in the cram than anything else, although i've seen my share of attacking terr being killed by a burst.

I don't think it would hurt to try this, Rand your arguement seems solid.

-Epi

[geekbot]

Nice post, Randedl.

The terr is the most important ship because of team positioning, not because of its offensive weapons. Using its offensive weapons comes at a fairly high cost because energy and staying alive is more important for the terr. I don't think there is a need to reduce the terrier's firepower.

I shark. I rep spider bullets, jav bombs, and L1 bullets. The occasional boucies are predictable, slower than wb bullets, and easily repped. Taking them away would reduce the chaos and fun of FR battles and attacking a cram. I vote no to all Randedl's suggestions.

But I really like the idea of experimenting with changing the burst pattern (two up vs. two down). With the new pattern, a defending terr can probably still burst 3 down the entrance. However, the attacking terr will now be able to burst 3 up into entrance as well. Maybe this is finally the entrance equalizer we've been looking for.

[Randedl]

wadi's argument

I do believe I'm on record as saying, and I quote, "You can pull my terr bursts out of my cold dead hands". I'm gonna throw in the FCs, shark shrap, jav rockets, and the fun.

I already said that I realize that most terr players will disagree, meaning I do recognize your bias to begin with. In a TWLB game, the terr players make up one eighth of the players playing, whether I am terring or warbirding or whatever, if taking away "some of the fun" from that one eighth results in more entertainment for the other seven eighths (nobody likes dying to a burst) then I am all for it - if you are not, you are self-motivated, not rational.

Seriously, in an arena where everyone has a gun, you want to replace the terr's with a water pistol. Do you honestly think terrs are flown by suicidal freaks who like going in to situations with little to few weapons? No! that's the shark's job.

You say this, and then you contradict yourself when you appeal to the fact that you don't think bursts are defensive. To argue on your level for a bit, seriously, in an arena where only one ship has a portal and is attachable, do you seriously want to give it, arguably, one of the most powerful weapons in Trench Wars? No! That's the offencive ship's job.

A terr should not be a killing machine, there are five other ships to do that. Write up a serious outline of a terr's task in basing - and try to say that getting kills is more important than staying safe and having it's team attach. A terr hiding on the other side of the flagroom should have no reason to be effecting the game more than the people fighting in the trenches.

reasons:
1.)As if the terr job wasn't boring enough as is. (big big reason. We had this debate I thought...) With cramming I'm already falling asleep when I play. I might as well take up knitting during an fr fight without bursts.
2.) bursts are not defensive. Who've you been talking to? When we spoke about this I was pretty clear that bursts were offensive. which terrs told you this? I can't think of a single league terr who doesn't go for terr kills with burst. I am not worried about terrs dying more without bursts, I'm worried about them dying _less_. FR battles are intense because they're _dangerous_ for both teams, both terrs. Let's present an extreme case: two teams, in the fr, playing 5 spids each, evenly matched, and no bursts. god damn if both terrs aren't going togo crazy from the boredom!

1. If cramming is so boring, and if we take away the bursting aspect, then maybe you won't cram? Balancing out the lines and dodging jav bombs from those side holes might help you out in that entertainment factor.

2. Galleleo refers to using bursts for defense in a post i'm about to respond to. You have alluded to using them for defense against other ships with more powerful weapons. Mythrandir told me last night that he uses them more for defense than offence, but I won't spoil his argument yet. Your extreme case, right now, wouldn't work as there is a four spider limit - meaning that there will be either a jav or a warbird to entertain the terr. As well, maybe terrs focus more on which spots they can be in to help their team deattach in strategic spots rather than finding burst spots to keep them occupied.

I have already stated in my prior post the statistic on terr deaths as related to bursts. With my post, I was and am not looking to have more terr deaths, I am looking to increase the level of enjoyment. If you are only playing terr because it is fun, maybe you are playing for yourself and not for your team, which goes along with that self-motivated idea. A shark's job is, arguably, a lot less entertaining than any other ship (though some sharks have said otherwise, and I am beginning to enjoy it a bit more recently), yet they still play, why do you think that is? If a base game between two evenly matched teams consisted of a thirty minute flagroom battle, can you honestly say you would be against that?

allright, in response to your reasons:

Errrrmm.... Uhhh ya, the terr's the _most important_ ship on the team, in that without one a team is pretty much screwed, but "strongest"? Portals are rarer than gold in base games, and it's not the terr that's going to be pulling down 140 kills a match (except in extreme cases). Okay, the multi argument? 1 on 1, close range with _any_ basing ship, is a toss up at best if you're using the 4 shot, and you're meat if you're up against a spider. I don't think most terrs will say the terr's strength is close-in fighting, but rather it's extending and dodging during engagements. Sure you'll see aggressive terrs lob a few shots across the fr, but that's almost always fishing.

By strongest I mean, take it away and your team is going to lose. Strength is not always determined by firepower or flashiness; refer to my footnote on the rabbit and the hare (I'm being facetious, but the argument remains the same).

Next, you have just finished saying that in an evenly matched game a terr will get bored because the spiders will just take care of each other. Now you are saying that a one on one between a terr and a spider means the terr will die. First of all, it is my strong belief that this is how it should be. If a player fights through seven other players, five with bullets and two with repels, and has enough energy left to kill a fully charged terr that will hit it with a spray of bullets, and assuming this has already happened at least once (the terr has already used its portal on a similar play), then yes, I do believe the terr will die. You have the audacity to say that a burst is not defensive, that you are worried terrs won't die as much without bursts, and then bring up a one-on-one situation with a spider? I spent alot of time putting my argument together, please don't try to pick it apart with contradicting statements, that's rather insulting.

Why should the terr be declawed and have to rely further on the rest of the team for support? Right now their's little room at the top for terrs to stand out, and taking a tool out of their current set isn't going to end any of the mediocrity that current basing is producing.

To answer your first question in as simple a way as i can: Because basing is a team game. To the contrary, right now, with a decent team at a cram, and sharks and spiders that can hold their own, a terr can stand out easily. A terr has a team in front of it to keep it alive, a portal just in case, and further a burst to kill anybody who comes close to them. Add to that that the burst can get 2 kills across the flagroom and three in a cram just from bursting, and the potential for bursts to be greened as quickly as they are used (this is a hypothetical, but with random greens it is a possibility), I do believe it is too easy for a terr to stand out. Take out the burst aspect and you are left with the players that can best stay alive by dodging, and are the most useful at being in strategic spots for their team to deattach from. Wadi, woudln't you, as a terr, rather be celebrated for this rather than for being "the best guy at shooting bouncing bullets at a pack of the enemy and maybe killing them because they aren't paying attention"?

It shouldn't be easy to get in to the fr. The cram is a problem, but it's not the terr bursts that cause it. Yes, I would like to see more shots from lower into the entrance, but the map orientation is clearly setup so the defending terr will always have an advantage, in a strung out fr fight. If the attacking terr is doing his job and pushing the way he should the burst is a critical tool in cracking the D once you're in the entrance proper.

I never said that it should. I do believe that it should be easier though. This is my personal belief though, so I won't use it, because I will not pretend to speak for the entire TW population on whether it should be easier or not. Yes, the cram is a problem, and yes, admit it or not, burst shots only strengthen the cram. If the attacking terr is doing his job and pushing the way he should, a defending terr just has to send bouncing bullets that just get repelled into a wall to bounce back, and there is a one out of eight chance that the attacking terr dies. With the amount of ships in that little space in the entrance, there is a great chance that our attacking terr dies without even seeing that little burst bouncing around in there.

I agree that a burst can be useful in "cracking the D", however, is it more useful in that, or in keeping the enemy out? If neither terr had a burst, I believe that it would be far easier to get into the flagroom, thus negating the effect a burst has on a forced entrance into the flagroom. If every other ship has died and the terrs are one-on-one with a burst each, the attacking terr will never kill the defending terr with a burst if the latter is in the cram and the attacker is below - the attacker will die.

(continued)

[Randedl]

wadi's argument, continued

Buyable Anti-warp, fine put it back in to TWLB. Mini-weasel? I've already said I want it. Levi? Sure bring it back. This argument, ditch it. Buyable antiwarp no one will use. In a close fight will you sacrifice 40 seconds + 5000 points for anti-warp that to use you'll have to halve a spid's firepower? Or how bout the levi, which is at least as bad since you'll be fighting pretty much 7 v 8 for the entire match. Your "pub balance" is a myth. Changing the spider so that it can't buy anti-warp doesn't hinder training spider in pub. Taking away a terr's burst will definetly change how you train terr fighting skills in pub. The basic difference between this change and things like the mini-weasel is origin. I would like to see changes flow from pub to TWLB, not the other way around.

My argument was never to bring these ships in. I would love to see that, but in an 8vs8 game i agree with you, you probably would still not see them. I brought this fact up to defend anybody's attempt to say that "a terr is like that in pub", because TW basing games are not like pub. Further, and i just thought of this, pub is potentially a 15vs15 game. This is where people would think about using a levi. If you had a 15 vs 15 base game and the option to use a levi, wouldn't you? Does one more spider make that much difference? Changes do flow from pub to TWLB, but that doesn't mean they are changing to be similar. We saw how teams oriented in pub - thus there was a cap on sharks and terrs. We saw what levis do in pub, thus no levi. These are changes that have come from pub. Anti-warp isn't as effective in pub just because there is no legitimate reason for a player to sacrifice their points for their team, unlike TWLB. Furthermore, in my experience, terrs train in pub, sure, but they practive their burst shots more in private arenas. Your particular argument here is null.

so let's go over your suggestions:

1. Remove bursts from basing games. (No.)
2. Give terrs one burst each life, but make them ungreenable (much like rockets). (possibly, although I feel that the "greening" aspect of TWLB is one of those spices that makes it interesting.)
3. Standardize the burst damage to ~520. This ensures a kill if all three hit a player, but decrease the effectiveness of repelled bursts (they hardly all hit the same player), and decrease the effectiveness of cross flag room shots. (No. Terr burst is offense, not defense, and as if it wasn't hard enough to get kills as terr as is. How bout instead we make them what L4 bullets are supposed to be, 100% kills.)
4. Lower the lasting time of a burst to ~3 seconds from the time they hit a wall and begin their bounce.(Bullet stay alive is bullet stay alive time, and unless Cont .39 added settings for it you can't specify before or after bounce.)

1. You are a terr, I realize you would be against this, I will not bother trying to convince you here.
2. Fair enough, but I believe that game quality would increase, as would strategic terring (and burst utilization) if a terr only had one burst to work with.
3. A terr should not be an offencive ship when it's main purpose is to stay alive. To make them a 100% kill shot would just highlight what my previous post argued against. This said, I know I have already mentioned in prior discussions with you that this is the least that should happen. There is nothing worse than seeing a burst hit and the player not die, because of random chance.
4. Go to T3 Gaunlett and fire off a burst, then fire one off in TW, i don't know what you are talking about here.

Bottom line though, decreasing the burst's effectiveness/availability is going to take a way a huge facet of playing the terrier, one that right now is very important to learning to play terr. I do not see removing a skill from the terrier toolbox making that ship any more fun/skill oriented, and it is a ship which has suffered in those areas recently. It is not something that presents a pressing need for change, and from the arguments presented here I can not see a change that gives anything to that ship instead of simply taking away (a big reason why settings changing are very tricky).

Most of what you say in your wrap-up was completely unadressed in the entirety of your post. That said, I will respond to it.

I never said it is important to learning to play terr. In fact, you just highlighted that burst shots are not what terrs should focus on, thank you.

I never said my proposed changes would make the ship more fun, they may, however, make it more responsible. And what do you mean about a shiph that has suffered? How? The terr is the exact same ship that it is in pub, just alot more safe.

There are many settings changes in TWLB from TW pub arenas. The most prevalent of which being ship limitations and not being able to purchase items. What grand authority said that we are perfect where we are? Who knows whether any of the ideas above will work? Believe me, if they don't I will be the first to say change it back. However, if you are completely against even trying this out, I think you are just worried that you, as a terr, will lose your precious burst, and that is self-motivation, not what I am aiming at here.

[Randedl]

warportal's argument

]pff, you make a lot of valid arguments for sure rand. Ofcourse I'm not for changing the terr settings. I'm pretty conservative about changing shipsets. They are what made TW the most popular zone in the game and thus should be considered sacred and very fragile.

I am not aiming to change pub, just TWLB, the stage where the best fight against the best. TWLB already has alot of differences between it and TW public arenas, maybe one of my propositions are the final stage in evening everything out? Probably not, but who knows without trying?

If however people accept the complaint of the burst being too strong and too random, sharkshrap would have to be abolished too. If we'd check the stats I'm sure terrs die of shrap just as much (if not more) as they die of nme-burst. Shrap is the sumum of randomness. Undodgable. The shark already has mines and can bomb, not forgetting the emp abillity. Shrap makes it too strong?

Shark shrap is annoying I admit, maybe I will make a thesis on removing or standardizing that in the near future. The difference however is that shark shrap can be repped, I have already been over the reasons as to why the same cannot be said about bursts. Furthermore, in this, the cramming age, bursts play alot more of a role in basing than shrap does, admit it.

The jav has a rocket. Even with the current laglimits, a jav with a certain amount of lag is unstoppable when it uses its rocket. The jav already has a bouncingbomb that can kill multiple nme's + shrap. Also has L1 assbullets. The rocket makes it too powerful?

If that were so, why are we at a point where we have to force teams to use a jav or a warbird? The jav can also teamkill, especially when it's bomb is repped. I also strongly believe that we should not change anything because of what laggy players do. If there is a problem with lag, we should look at the limits, not accomadating it.

This to illustrate that complaints about the terr being too strong can also be made about the shark and the jav. I believe that the current settings provide a certain ballance in base. Making changes in those settings is risky business. First of all cause when u change one ships settings, the current ballance might be lost. Secondly once you start making changes the door is open and there will rise all kinds of requests for changes that might seem to only improve the game.

First off, the current balance (that of TW pubs) has already been lost; I do not believe we still have a balance.

Secondly, I am all for trying out some changes. TWD and ?go base get boring, why not use them to try out some stuff? Burst angles, levis, and new maps included! Who knows, we might actually like the changes!

ps. I was told you would be a whole lot more against what I have said, perhaps there is some hope for you afterall

[Sufficient]

I'd rather change the map than do any other type of change suggested or tested so far.

[Randedl]

galleleo's "argument"

Galleleo, I am not going to bother responding to much at all of what you have said. It is my strong belief that you are the most self-centered person in Trench Wars. When the idea of TWL consisting only of 3-league squads came up, your response was "No, that idea sucks because my squad couldn't play." While those are not your exact words, I am sure you said them with a lot less intelligence, the meaning remains the same: "If it doesn't work for Galleleo it is a bad idea."

That said, here goes. . .

So? A spiders bullets affect the outcome of the game. Sharks bombs affect the outcome of the game, the 200 points you get from the flag affect the outcome of the game. Thats the whole point, if nothing would affect the outcome, you would have no outcome.

I never said anything like this. I merely said that a terr has no reason affecting the outcome in the magnitude that it currently does. Stop hyperbolizing, you are bad at it.

Bs, I use it for both offensive and defensive reason's. It has saved my lived alot, aswell as it has killed enm terr alot. When I have a spider behind me, and my team is currently death or somewhere else. and I got a burst I will aim it to kill him, saving my life. Therefor it does have effect of how often I die.

So you say that bursts both cause terr deaths and save them? Maybe the two statistics cross each other out? Maybe the terr death rate is changed? Would either be bad? Who knows? All i do know is that a burst doesn't rep a bullet or a bomb or another burst. If a spider is behind you, your problem isn't that you don't have a burst, it is that something went wrong with your team.

What's so offensive with DEFENDING your base? When your sharks die and your spider die, and you burst killing enm's means you defended your base from them coming in. There is nothing offensive in it. If a attacking terr kills enm's defending the base in a cram, that's offensive use of the burst.

When i say defensive, I mean used for the defence of the terr itself. You need to establish the difference in meaning before you try to talk with the big boys. There are seven other ships defending the base, there is no necessity for another.

Again, just the same as jav bombs or shark bombs. A shark can rep a jav bomb on his screen but his terr and spiders still die, lets take these bombs away too, I mean shark see something else then the rest of the team.

Not accounting for lag, a jav bomb is predictable in how it can be dealt with - just rep it after it's bounce. With a burst, the bullet does not diminish after a set amount of bounces, for all intents and purposes, it goes until it hits something.

Again, its the whole point to kill the enm terr and gain the control of flagroom. And why shouldn't the terr be an offensive weapon? if you look to Mythrandir terrin you would see he made quite and effective offensive weapon of the terr. There is no rule that says the terr is no offensive weapon. Your whole argument in this post is based on the fact the terr is no offensive weapon. And I dont see a reason why its not an offensive weapon. Lets take away the bullets of the terr too then. Lets make it useless cept for attaching to it. lets jus take the terr out of the game and make the base game 7 vs 7 with people spawning in the flagroom.

While I realize you are being facetious, this is perhaps the strongest argument you came up with. To start with though, I talked to Mythrandir last night and he wasn't as opposed to the idea as you are. He also said he tries to use bursts as a defensive tactic more than anything - don't speak for him if you haven't spoken to him.

Maybe a terr could be offencive, but bursts are not a fair weapon to give it. If you want a terr to be offencive, make it accountable for that offence, ie. shooting a bullet takes up energy. The burst does not do this. A burst is not an offence, it is a little bullet you can shoot at the enemy while hiding - a proverbial sucker punch.

Your point about people spawning in the flagroom is negated by the fact that basing is attacking the flagroom, defending it, and fighting in it. I am not trying to take any of these aspects away.

I sit in the cram because I have a portal, by relying only on a portal wont make me leave cram.

What? You sit in a cram because you have a portal, but if you don't have one you will still cram? That makes no sense.

Burst have got nothing to do with a terr sitting in cram. Further more, its not like a terr always has a portal, so when you dont have a portal and a spider is coming for you, and you kill it with your burst, you saved your life using your burst for another defensive tactic. And further more, I dont inmediatly use my burst when I get one. I wait for the right moment, where it will probably have the biggest effect.

I didn't pretend to make any connection between a burst and a terr sitting in a cram, it was a hypothetical. Ignoring your misunderstanding of the word defense as i was referring to it, you have just said that a burst strengthens the cram. A huge majority have already said that the cram needs to be weakened, thank you for supporting my idea.

There is no imbalance. You dont terr. therefor you dont really now how a burst helps or effects the game. Therefor I see no reason to test anything out.

I have been terring quote a lot lately, in TWBD and ?go base games. Don't pretend you know anything about what I do in Trench Wars. That said, even if I just played base warbird or something, I can still see the effect a burst has on a game, you are being ludicrous. Your conclusion that you see no reason to test anything out is a desperate stretch by a desperate man to keep things from changing out of his advantage - it is not rational.

ps. I would have hoped that in that large mass of rambling you did you may have gained a bit of my respect for your intelligence. . . It didn't happen, you should refrain from responding to my arguments anymore, they appear to be out of your league.

[Randedl]

cig's argument

I agree on both sides. It is annoying when u break the cram, and the terr comes across and bursts ur whole team with 3 bouncing bullets. I also think that the terr would be to weak of a ship w/o the burst. Like wadi said, its VERY boring to terr now, and u subtract a burst its even worst. Like Others said, maybe if u can get it to green not as rare, or maybe if it does less damage, but i dont even lik that idea. When a terr is traped, sometimes thething that gets them outa a corner is there burst. If it didnt do as much damage it wouldnt be near as helpful. Ur forgetting a terr dont have any other offensive weapons. There bullets are basicaly useless, and a portal is defensive.

You didn't post a whole lot, but I'll respond to it since you do tend to post frequently. . .

First, a terr using a burst when it is trapped in a corner is using it for self-defence, and a portal has the same effect - saving the terr's life.

Next, maybe the terr will be more boring, granted. Goalie in Hockey Zone is boring, as is Centre in HZ's Football League. People still play both, for their team. People would still play terr.

[Randedl]

sufficient's argument

It's def hard to make adjustments since TW is basically a 1-hit kill zone. I understand sorta where ur coming from Rand, but to me, terr bursts are skill based ... most terrs develop their preferred burst positions ... and it is a good/scary defense for them. Bursts also force the nme sharks to rep ... and for the most part, that's what happens to most offensive bursts, they are repped.

It's hard, but that doesn't make it less worth trying.

I don't think I said, or alluded to, terr bursts being based on something other than skill originally. I do recognize they are aimed. However, a terr does not account for what happens if the burst misses the target (which is usually just the other team in general) and just bounces around afterwards, nor does it account for it's bursts being repped (sometimes I shoot ahead of a terr when I'm a wb thinking a shark will rep it and slow the bullet down).

Bursts do force enemy sharks to rep, but when you are trying to fight a cram, or are in the flagroom even, what effect does a rep have on a burst? It just prolongs somebody's death.

[Randedl]

jeansi's argument

[QUOTE]Sorry didn't have the time to read it all yet but here's what I think of the burst thing atm:

The biggest problem with the burst is that it kills terrs too easily imo.
The terr needs skill to use the burst well (not that much in cram maybe but in fr battles) and it also makes it more interesting.

It's a reason for the terr to pass over the cram. Might always result in a more or less lucky kill for the attacking team too.

Giving only one burst might make terring boring?
What would the burst greens be replaced with?

I think a reduction of the burst damage would be better. make it lanc strenght or a little more powerful than the spider bullet. That would mean it would kill most spiders and badly hurt the terr, but not necessarily kill it unless he gets hit by something else too./QUOTE]

Burst greens wouldn't be replaced with anything, other greens would just be more prevalent (ie. portals, reps and full charges).

An idea to give the terr a bit more fire power then would be to give it level 2 bullets, but with the same bullet speed. This makes the terr accountable for it's shots, makes it impossible to sit in a corner and kill the opposing team while not even facing it, and still gives a little defence close range. That could be worth testing.