Another Basing Issue

[Randedl]

Originally posted by Malladrin
maybe make the terrs bursts go out in the angles 30, 150 and 270 (2, 10 and 6 o'clock) degrees instead of 90, 210 and 330 (12, 8 and 4 o'clock) this way both terrs could get 3 bursts in the cram...

While this is a good idea in theory, in a cram there are usually reps going off often enough to repel these bursts. A repped burst from an attacking terr is alot less effective than a repped burst by a defending terr. I don't see this idea having any effect aside from a chance kill, however; it may be worth a shot.

This change still does not give a terr that accountability that I think it should have if it wants to be an offencive weapon.

[Randedl]

Originally posted by Mattey
Hah, I hope Mythrandir posts in this thread.



I hate your ideas for changing basing Rand.

He didn't seem as opposed to it as you would think.

ps. Don't hate until you've tried it, otherwise it's just prejudice!

[Randedl]

Originally posted by bloodzombie
The only suggestion here that I like is the one that can't be done, which is limiting the life of the burst once it bounces.


I can understand where rand is coming from, but at the same time, bursting is a big part of what makes the terr fun, and if you're creating turnovers but taking away some of the fun, that just doesn't seem like a fair trade.

I already adressed this with my Hockey Zone comparison. . .

Trench Wars League Basing should be about the best team. People should be willing to sacrifice some of their fun (and play terr) for the betterment of their team.

In the NHL players play checking duties and trap, for the win, and that can't be the most enjoyable task.

[Randedl]

Originally posted by Galleleo
Making the burst less powerfull is bs. What happens when your team is down, ie a jav shot your team in cram. The only way for your team to keep this cram, and fr is for the terr to fly over and burst, with burst that dont hurt people much, ie a spider bullet, will mean that the enm will still fly in and the terr got pretty useless. I totally see no inbalance whatsoever.

Btw, when you are attacking terr. the best thing to do is safe your burst, lay a portal rush in the entrance when there is an oppurtinity and burst. do it at the right time, and in the right place your burst will go in fr, and will be a danger to any of the enm's I see no point in this discussion.

Your arguments seem to be de-evolving. . .

If a jav shot kills your cram, complain to your sharks, not to me.

Next, I am not for strengthening the cram, so don't preach to me that a burst does this.

Everybody says that the cram is too strong, you have just said a burst makes it stronger, and you have the audacity to say ou see no imbalance? Perhaps you should get your vision (or brain) checked.

If you lay your portal high as an attacking terr, you are more prone to being hit by shrap, a jav bomb or an enemy burst, because you have nowhere to portal to just in case. That doesn't seem the best thing to do.

[Randedl]

geekbot's argument

The terr is the most important ship because of team positioning, not because of its offensive weapons. Using its offensive weapons comes at a fairly high cost because energy and staying alive is more important for the terr. I don't think there is a need to reduce the terrier's firepower.

First, there is no cost for using a burst right now. Next, you just said it, the terr is important because of positioning; how does a burst help it's cause here? Give the ship a repel, that would be more useful for this cause than a silly burst.

I shark. I rep spider bullets, jav bombs, and L1 bullets. The occasional boucies are predictable, slower than wb bullets, and easily repped. Taking them away would reduce the chaos and fun of FR battles and attacking a cram. I vote no to all Randedl's suggestions.

How can you easily rep a burst while attacking a cram?

You just said bursts are easily predictable, how then do they add to the chaos? While i disagree with you here, maybe you could clarify it a bit?

But I really like the idea of experimenting with changing the burst pattern (two up vs. two down). With the new pattern, a defending terr can probably still burst 3 down the entrance. However, the attacking terr will now be able to burst 3 up into entrance as well. Maybe this is finally the entrance equalizer we've been looking for.

If a jav bomb can't get through a cram, i don't see how a burst would help. With the current base map, an attacking terr would need to be in a position both very predictable and very close to the entrance to utilize such a burst. This would make it alot more vulnerable to dying, not alot more useful in my opinion.

[Randedl]

done for the day

that was alot of spam and took far too long, but i'll check in later to see if anything new comes up, keep the ideas coming.

thanks for taking it seriously though everybody, even if you can't seriously respond to it.

[Galleleo]

Re: galleleo's "argument"

Originally posted by Randedl
Galleleo, I am not going to bother responding to much at all of what you have said. It is my strong belief that you are the most self-centered person in Trench Wars. When the idea of TWL consisting only of 3-league squads came up, your response was "No, that idea sucks because my squad couldn't play." While those are not your exact words, I am sure you said them with a lot less intelligence, the meaning remains the same: "If it doesn't work for Galleleo it is a bad idea."

This pathetic attempt invalidating my arguments by insulting me already means you have no real answer for on my arguments, further more, what I said was: I think it is a bad idea to have 3 league squads because squad LIKE my squad wont be able to play twl, notice the LIKE there, incuria isnt the only squad that doesnt play all 3 types of league's. But sure if you cant even think about your own squad anymore. And my main argument for not changing this is not because it wouldnt work for me. Its because I have the believe that there is no imbalance, therefor there is nothing to correct.

I never said anything like this. I merely said that a terr has no reason affecting the outcome in the magnitude that it currently does. Stop hyperbolizing, you are bad at it.

Why? the terr is just as much part of the game as any other ship. So they also should be able to affect the outcome, and the reason a terr has a burst is to kill enm's without having to be in the line of fire and losing enrg. wich keeps him safer and will help it stay alive. A spider is allowed to die while attacking the enm, a terr is supposed to stay alive, but he still has the right to attack.

So you say that bursts both cause terr deaths and save them? Maybe the two statistics cross each other out? Maybe the terr death rate is changed? Would either be bad? Who knows? All i do know is that a burst doesn't rep a bullet or a bomb or another burst. If a spider is behind you, your problem isn't that you don't have a burst, it is that something went wrong with your team.

You keep saying that a enm has to go trough 7 enm's to get to the terr, wich is bs. Because he isnt alone either, maybe 3 of the other spiders of his team killed 5 of our team, wich means only 2 are left, and they could have been killed just before that meaning there are still waiting to respawn. Therefor there are no 7 opponents to get to the terr.

Not accounting for lag, a jav bomb is predictable in how it can be dealt with - just rep it after it's bounce. With a burst, the bullet does not diminish after a set amount of bounces, for all intents and purposes, it goes until it hits something.

Burst are easy repable, and after repped they get so slow that they are easy dodgeable, further more its very easy for a shark to rep the burst and then when out of reps, he can easily die by 1 of the burst and at the same time eating another burst leaving only 1 left.

While I realize you are being facetious, this is perhaps the strongest argument you came up with. To start with though, I talked to Mythrandir last night and he wasn't as opposed to the idea as you are. He also said he tries to use bursts as a defensive tactic more than anything - don't speak for him if you haven't spoken to him.

Hold on, let me just use something against you:

You need to establish the difference in meaning before you try to talk with the big boys.

Maybe a terr could be offencive, but bursts are not a fair weapon to give it. If you want a terr to be offencive, make it accountable for that offence, ie. shooting a bullet takes up energy. The burst does not do this. A burst is not an offence, it is a little bullet you can shoot at the enemy while hiding - a proverbial sucker punch.

So make the terr lose, like half the enrg using a burst.

Your point about people spawning in the flagroom is negated by the fact that basing is attacking the flagroom, defending it, and fighting in it. I am not trying to take any of these aspects away.

What? You sit in a cram because you have a portal, but if you don't have one you will still cram? That makes no sense.

Again:

You need to establish the difference in meaning before you try to talk with the big boys.

I didn't pretend to make any connection between a burst and a terr sitting in a cram, it was a hypothetical. Ignoring your misunderstanding of the word defense as i was referring to it, you have just said that a burst strengthens the cram. A huge majority have already said that the cram needs to be weakened, thank you for supporting my idea.

I could just go on using that quote against you in the whole thread, because obviuosly you didnt get jack of what I posted. Maybe you should go back to school and learn to read.

I have been terring quote a lot lately, in TWBD and ?go base games. Don't pretend you know anything about what I do in Trench Wars. That said, even if I just played base warbird or something, I can still see the effect a burst has on a game, you are being ludicrous. Your conclusion that you see no reason to test anything out is a desperate stretch by a desperate man to keep things from changing out of his advantage - it is not rational.

You seem more desperate then me

ps. I would have hoped that in that large mass of rambling you did you may have gained a bit of my respect for your intelligence. . . It didn't happen, you should refrain from responding to my arguments anymore, they appear to be out of your league.

I think this goes more for yourself

Further more I can conclude that you have said nothing here to even make a scratch on one of my arguments. And the fact that you didnt reply to some of my arguments, isnt because of what you think of me, its simply because of the fact that you had no reply to it. So stop bashing me and start getting some good arguments.

PS. I might note that 50 to 75% of the burst are just being eaten.

[Pearl Jam]

My reply is short, but I read the entirety of this thread.

I'm all for going through with idea #2, which limits the terr to one burst per life. A skilled terr would be much more cautious with it in this case. I play a lot of base javelin, and as sharks become more and more accustomed to cramming, the work of basejavs becomes more and more difficult. It's frustrating to say the least. So when I'm able to score a big shot in the entrance, nothing is more frustrating than a terrier quickly darting by the entrance to burst, immediately killing 3 essential teammates. Simply put, one ship keeps the entire other team from getting in. I don't feel the terr should have the privilege of doing this over...and over...and over again.

At the same time, however, I've played a lot of terrier as well. I feel that with one burst a terrier wouldn't be so quick to pop one off unless absolutely necessary. It would become a purely-defensive tool much of the time. I think that's a great idea. Plus increasing flagroom battles (does anyone remember those? heh) will always be a huge plus in my book, and I believe instituting this change would definately aid in achieving that.

[Galleleo]

Originally posted by Randedl
If you lay your portal high as an attacking terr, you are more prone to being hit by shrap, a jav bomb or an enemy burst, because you have nowhere to portal to just in case. That doesn't seem the best thing to do.

While my posts are de-evolving, your reading abilities arent really improving. I didnt say you had to portal high. So there goes this whole stupid argument.

[Galleleo]

I might have been a bit rash with saying we shouldnt change anything, because option 2 isnt that bad.

[edit] see pj's post, he beat me too it, what I said came to about the same as he said[/edit]

[Mattey]

Originally posted by Randedl
He didn't seem as opposed to it as you would think.

ps. Don't hate until you've tried it, otherwise it's just prejudice!

I don't have to have had cancer to know that it would suck.

[Jason]

Mattey, that's a ridiculous analogy. Cancer is a well documented disease. We're (for the most part) quite familiar with it and how it affects us. Thus, you can state with quite a bit of certainty that it's shitty. None of Rand's ideas have been implemented. They haven't been tested. There's no "documentation" so to speak. Thus, you can't state with any certainty at all as to how they might affect gameplay. You just think his ideas suck. That is your opinion, opinion being the key word that makes your analogy ridiculous.

PJ, Ebay rocks. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=52403

And as for my thoughts on the whole burst deal, I really like Malla's proposition. Try that out first and see what happens. Beyond that, I sort of like limiting terrs to one burst per life, as well decreasing the stay alive time after a bounce.

[Coojma]

Personally, I think the terrier has been perfected in proportion to the base that we currently use for TWLB, etc.

Nowadays, spids do 700+ damage in twlb so being a terr is always 2-3 hit KO, unless lag. I still feel that the burst is very necessary, even though offense is very strong.

I've always felt that burst damage she subtract every time the burst bounces, hence rewarding dodging or repelling. Unfortunately for sharks nowadays, terriers who can burst right above the flag as they go across the entrance will easily get all three bursts down, killing the enemy team.

I'm up for decreasing damage every bounce, if it is possible.

[Randedl]

Originally posted by Mattey
I don't have to have had cancer to know that it would suck.

you should go get cancer to confirm this

j/k, but yah, what jason said

[Nickname]

Mythrandir has the terr as an awesome fighting ship, if he can use it that way, no reason others can't learn. Leave it alone.