Another Basing Issue

[wadi]

First off, Malla's idea is interesting, but unless someone with a current familiarity with settings can chip in, I do believe it is impossible given the map options (baring a map reorientation). As a stated previously, so is

What we have at the root of this argument is not whether or not the terr burst is overpowered. What we have is an argument between what basing is now, and what some think it should be. The most extreme case , and best worded, is epinephrine's. He sees greens as "cheap crutches newbies use to convince themselves they can actually compete with their betters". He wants instead a greenless arena, ala dueling.

On the other hand, there are the people who see greens as an advantage that wise players will use to their greatest advantage. Luck doesn't play favorites, so the advantage will go to the players who best make use of prizes. This is another argument that's going to end up being all about preference, and the basers are just going to have to decide if they want the burst to go or not.

Personally, I find greening to be one of the things that separate basing league from the dueling leagues, and one of the things I like the most about basing league. Epinephrine would exchange chaos for order, I think the chaos is part of the excitement *shrug*. It's a preference thing.

If the burst goes, or even goes down to one, I do think you will start to see some very very bored and disinterested terrs in the game. It's going to start being the ship that no one wants to play, stay safe, no fighting, just huddle while your team does the fighting.

Rand, you totally mangled my comment about the 1 on 1 terr vs spider. I said the terr stands a minimal chance in a "close quarters" FIGHT. This was to show you that the terr is not an offensive ship, it does not wade into the frey to rip spiders down, it's not a fighting ship, it's a running ship. It's best defense is running/portaling away, and it excels at it. It's not exactly a ship decked out in offensive capabilities. Except one, the burst. Thus my comment about giving someone a water pistol in a real fire fight. plain and simple, there's no good reason a terr shouldn't have offensive capability. Getting killed is always going to piss you off, the fact that you have a very hard time, as you clearly show through the attitude in your posts, is just kinda sad. There's little randomness in a good terrier's bursting, just like a good spider doesn't just pray and spray.

Yes, I realize my extreme case is unrealistic, that's why I called it an extreme case. You acknowledge the 4 spid rule, but you do not understand the reason behind it's introduction; to increase proficiency in more ships. Removing the terr burst simultaneously decreases the amount of skills needed to fly terr (and unlike what you implied I never said this wasn't a skill terrs should focus on), and the dodging skill of all other ships in the fr. This seems counter productive when balanced against the minimal skill increase involved in saving a burst.

[geekbot]

Re: geekbot's argument

What I mean to say is that bursts aren't THAT powerful of an offensive weapon (they can't be aimed, they are predictable). As a shark, I know most of the burst patterns and anticipate them for the most part. They DO need to be repped though and keeping track of them is part of my job description. Taking them away would make my insignificant life that much less interesting.

Perhaps the exception to this is at the entrance because although you can't aim bursts, getting them anywhere in the entrance is good enough. 2 of 3 are aimed downward so all else being equal, this is an advantage for the defending team. Reversing the direction might sway the advantage just enough.

Yes, upwards bursts would be just as easy to rep but a used rep is a used rep. Breaking the cram can happen when you catch a team with a jav bomb in between sharks. If that bomb isn't available, maybe your terr is smart enough to save and place three bursts up the entrance with spiders to follow.

[Sufficient]

I dunno if I said it here but I'll say it again I guess. I'd rather have a map change than any other change previously and currently suggested or tested.

As for the following positions:

Greens: Sure, adjust the % of each green if you want. But don't make it ridiculously rare or ridulously abundant.

Bursts for terrs: The terr being able to turn the tide of the game should still be present in my opinion. They are as easily deadly as they are easily repped / dedangerized.

Just remember this is a 1-kill zone. It isn't a Pro/IML/AML league. There is only so much we can deviate from the original settings w/o changing the core of what TW is.

Map change can potentially solve most of these issues about ship settings.

[Cylor]

This is like a book I'll never read.

[Pure_Luck]

Yes, i'm biased to this suggestion.

Terr's these days can barely stay alive as it is. Take away their bursts and they will suck even more. I think bursts save terrs more than they kill the other terr's.

I'd post more but this is tiring and what not.

[Nickname]

Little Women of Harriet the Spy?

[Malladrin]

First off, wadi just posted alot of what I was about to write, so I say thank you wadi. Edit: Geekbot raised another question I forgot to write about, thank you

I also believe the burst's to be or not to be is a question of preference. I happen to disagree with Randedl and Epinephrine, and we might have to settle at that. I will just add a point to a non-burst environment's effect on cramming. I tried to explain this to Randedl earlier but the chat in SS doesn't allow you to put in much thought in ever so short messages. Randedl wants cramming to be weakened, and thinks non existant bursts will do just that. That is most certainly true. But what happens if you think a step further?
Well, unless the defending terrier dies when the cram breaks a flagroom battle will take place...the facetious point I want to raise is that bursts, while they seem to kill off terriers (thus ending the fr battle) also prolong them. Why is that then? Whenever both enemy sharks die in a fr battle your own team gain a momentum and can push the other team into the ear or a corner. What you in most cases get here when rushing forth above the flag is a burst in the face. The momentum is lost and the flagroom battle will be continued for another little while. Imagen this scenario in a non-burst environment, no momentum loss and the other team will be in a tight spot, probably being pushed out of flagroom (terrier dies).
So while we get shorter lifetime of the cram, we also get shorter flagroom battles. The thing is a cram is harder to break than it is to kill of a team in flagroom, and we would de facto get more time of a match spent cramming. If that is the case, is that a desired effect?

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Randedl wants the burst to be precious, just like the javs rockets are. I quote "2. Give terrs one burst each life, but make them ungreenable (much like rockets)." This is not a fair comparision, javs can afford to die, terrs cannot.
A greening rate of maybe 1.5 times the one of portals might be good (speculating) if you want to make terriers to think before bursting.

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Randedl shoves off a turned round burst as not being an effective wepon against a cram with an argument much like 'it will be repped'. The whole point of a changed burst pattern would of course be to burst when it wouldn't be repped, and when it does get repped there is a chance of it bouncing around where the other team is.

I have to conclude after some testing in multibase that a changed bursting pattern would make it much harder for the defending terrier to get down three bursts bullets with each burst. However, you can on the other hand get down two bullets while sitting quite safe by the "anchor tile". The effect of this?
I speculate now, but it is not too bold of a guess that if the cramming team dies off by say a jav bomb that the defending terrier would not go over the entrence and kill off the incoming team. He'd more likely lay off a burst from the anchor tile (note only two bullets will go down the entrence) and then retreat into flagroom to get a strong position when the flagroom battle begins. Thus a weakened cram, but almost the same bursts.

[Pearl Jam]

On topic: I see both sides of the argument, and they both make sense. Maybe if there was a way to just decrease the rate at which terriers green bursts...perhaps that would be suitable. Either way, it's worth testing at least. No harm in that, ya dig.

Off topic: Jason, you're the fucking man. I'm totally the highest bidder on that right now. Big up yourself.

Even more off topic: I need to go poopy.

[Cig Smoke]

If it can be done, i'd like Mall's idea, but like someone said it wouldnt be long till a terr found a spot so that they can get all 3 down the enterence while in cram. Its always just a matter of time.

[Malladrin]

I just found out that it is very much possible to get the inverted burst I'm talking about. It's just a matter of giving the burst negative speed. Try the burst of terriers in the public arena of TWDev zone, if they haven't been changed since I was there the burst should be a slow, inverted one. (just so the angles will be easy to see).

[Miku19]

The point of the burst direction change isn't to keep the defending terr from bursting down, but allow the attacking terr to burst up. This gives the defending terr a hard time if the attacking team pushes. The attacking team gets lots of greens -> terr gets bursts -> because terr can burst into cram, there is a possibility for a td -> defending terr has to back off. Also, this burst layout probably enables some wicked fr bursts

If it was possible, I'd suggest having the burst do L1 to L2 damage, and emp for a few secs.

[Jason]

I checked the slow motion burst pattern in the dev zone, Malla. That is just what the doctor ordered. :]

[warportal]

Rand I still don't follow you when you claim that shrap can be repped but burstbullets. In my experience shrap is harder to rep cause it's faster than burst. Ofcourse after being repped burst bullets will still bounce arround but are then very easy to dodge.

And to make a general opinion. I don't believe terr is too strong compared to the other ships, even though the terr has a less agressive function. If your changes would be permanently implemented Rand, it would take a lot of fun outof the game for many including me.

[Da1andonly]

Ban randedlled for spamming!

You postwhore!

[Zerzera]

I agree with Rand, burst is the last save for the cram. Versus the cram you either have to kill the enemy terrier or jump into a gap.
The last one is almost impossible because the terrier can almost always finish it off with burst.
When cramming your team gets alot of greens, and so the terrier kind of always has a burst left.

People (whiterabbits) are always crying about how the cram sucks and flagroombattles rock. I like to cram and I think flagroomfights suck, but the changes Rand suggested could only lead to one thing: shorter cramming, longer flagroom battles.

Most of the time I save my ass by bursting when someone is assaulting me, or aiming my bursts under flag to defend it when no one else does.
Basicly spiders will have to make up for that and show better teamwork (and terrier again has to position better to drop his players in the right place) as opposed to the numb dropping in cram and shoot down like a moron.
I don't think that when you know when someone fails you will have nothing to defend yourself will make the game dull.

But basicly Rand gave something to think about, and maybe inverting the burst would be a good change.