HeavenSent is bigoted

[Bioture]

There's a difference between 'normal' and 'natural'.
It's natural to be gay but it's not normal.

It's quite hard to explain this concept without aggravating a predisposed audience. How can we make arguments when their perspectives of moral relavitism differ so much from ours?

P.S. did you get the postcard?

[Bioture]

You know it too. You can say absolutey not, but Galilleo is right. You should let people live their own lives. You can be there for them to turn to if they need you and talk about the great thing you found, but it's wrong to cram it down their throats.

What I do know is that I shared the exact same viewpoint as you when I was an athiest. How can I explain this to you so that you'll understand an experience that you haven't experienced? We all have choices to make, and I don't think we should be irresponsible and watch as other people go down the gutter.

[Galleleo]

I agree with sarien, and that is what I meant.

Sure you can tell people what you think they should do, what you think is right, what you think should change. But you can't force people to actually do what you think is right, what should change. You can't go up to people and go: stop being gay because god hates gays, and because he hates gays he will smithe you and your whole family one day and they will all die a horrific death because you are gay. So change now before all your family turns into doom!

If you say taht convincing enough, to someone that is not very strong in his shoes, you'll intimidate him into doing something he might not want to do.

Good example of what I mean: The pedoaphile party that started in Netherlands? I have no problems with that party whatsoever aslong as all they do is speak out what they want. (Making sex with kids of 12 years and older legal). They have the right to make a party and have that opinion and bring it out. So I don't care about that. But were they to be picked and actually make a law that sex with kids of 12 years and older would be legal, then I would be pissed. Because then you forcing people to do something which the might not want to do. A 12/13 year old kid can't decide for himself if he wants to have sex with a 30 year old guy. He/She doesn't understand the full implications of sex, everything around it and cannot possibly make a good decision, they are easily persuaded if you have the right social skills.

What I am trying to say is: letting your opinion out? No problem, tell everyone personally for all I care. But don't force it on them (Go from door to door and keep a foot between the door when they try to close it, for example) if they don't want to hear it, or to be forced on them. And of course you can think of exceptions to this rule, but I am not going into that.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

1) This is too much to respond to

2) Conc, usually I see your points but you did start this in the other thread with the "so, in that vein, you'd agree..." troll. You seem to be itching for the opportunity to out a hypocrite.

3) Genocidal, name calling is pretty weak. I've met Heaven and WPE and they are decent people.

4) Please continue on with the nice discussion

1) Possibly, but it's a good discussion.

2) I'll be the first to be unapologetic on this one. If you're going to pontificate about letting people do what they want (and call people "self-righteous" in the same breath, no less), you should truly believe in that--not have HUGE invisible asteriks. "You should be able to do what you want... oh, unless you're gay. Did I mention that if you're gay, you should have to play by my rules? That's what I meant." Come on.
Yes, I'm going to jump on that. It's two-faced bullshit, and I can't abide by it. Was it baiting? A little, but he had already put himself out there. It's not like I was coming out of left field without provocation.

3)

I see you just have a wild hair up your ass from your last penetration.

...

Your gay ass missed the point on that one.

...

Again, your fag vision missed the point.

You're coming down on genocidal for "name calling?" They could very well have been decent people around you, but then again, you aren't gay.

[Vykromond]

is your sig from the first loose fur album, conc?

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

Yep. There's also a Wilco version off the YHF demos that's pretty cool, too.

[Vykromond]

ah, ok. i was trying to place it.

[HeavenSent]

You say being gay is a choice, but then you say being gay is Natural. If it's natural, how is it a choice. To me, when you say something is natural, sounds like you just have it, it's a nature to you, it's a part of you.

Our primal instincts are our natural urges. "If it feels good, do it." is how animals think. Case in point.. Chimps on cocaine. Have you ever seen the experiment where there's 2 buttons; one with food & the other with cocaine? The chimp will push the cocaine button until he dies of starvation.

Guys tend to be more promiscuous than girls. For some guys, when they get aroused, they have to bust their nut now. And for a relatively small amount of men, they don't care who busts their nut. Lenny Bruce, a famous comedian that opened the door to the likes of Richard Pryor, says it in a way i find profoundly true. I couldn't quote it exactly, but he says something like, 'Guys get so horny they don't care how they get off, guys will fuck mud if that's all they got.'

When someone's being a real asshole towards us, some of us might be thinking is how much we'd like to just pound the fuck out that asshole. But for most of us in that thought, we also consider the consequences of such an action. We weigh the inescapable consequence against the gratification of the action and determine that it's really not worth it. That's the civilized side of us thinking against the primal side. The side that desires to fit in with the norm overcomes the side that just wants to satisfy it's natural, instinctual desires to fulfill its primal urges.

We're created in the image of God, which means we're above the animals. Which also means our thoughts and rationale should be on a higher plane than all the other creatures on earth. It's the Christian's duty to not get into the habit of satisfying the desires of the flesh. We're to tame our natural, carnal instincts. The key word here IMO is HABIT. We all sin and as long as we occupy these carnal vessels, we'll continue to give into the flesh now and then. Don't get caught up in habitual sin.

Sin comes in all kinds of packages. By that i mean that not all sin is against God. Sin is transgression. Whatever you transgress against, whether it be another person, yourself or God. You beat someone up, you've transgressed against them; your sin is against them & you will either directly or through Karma pay them back. If you sin against yourself with something like glutony, you're gonna get fat, maybe get something like heart disease and either pay through the nose with medical bills or die. If you sin against God, either Karma will catch up to you (a.k.a. the will of God; the Holy Spirit) or you'll answer to Him personally when you give up the ghost in this life.

Needless to say, a Christian is taught to resist the urges that satisfy the flesh. Our victories over the flesh is the material used for our clothing in heaven. Everyone goes to heaven... but some are gonna be naked. The victory we have is the blood of Christ that covers our sins so the Father doesn't have to look at them. They're still there, but they're covered. It's that covering that becomes our garments in the next life. Right at the advent of Christ, they become as fine, pure, white linen. Judgment day isn't a judgment per se for the believer, it's rewards day

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

Every time I hear the whole "choice vs. nature" argument, it's from people who are HETEROSEXUAL.

That's interesting, I've talked about it with an equal amount of heterosexuals and homosexuals. It couldn't be that you've had that conversation with mostly heterosexual people because they're the ones who have the most problems wrapping their mind around the possibility that it just might be natural, could it?

In order to say that HeavenSent is bigoted and hypocritical, we have to place judgment on his beliefs and moral values. That somehow they are flawed, and there really hasn't been any proof of this other than personal bias. And I can make the claim, beyond a shadow of a doubt on my part, that his beliefs and moral values are more solidly rooted than any athiest or agnostic that I know. So basically, if you're trying to out a hypocrite, I'll have to suggest a better medium than this.

Being "bigoted" means you have strong partiality to your own group (be it race, religion, politics, etc) and are strongly intolerant of those who differ. By calling people "fags" and "queers" while telling a group that they can't marry because your group should own "marriage"... you don't call that strongly partial and intolerant of homosexuality? I would.

By definition, being "hypocritical" means having feelings or virtues that one does not actually have. It has nothing to do with judgement on moral values or beliefs, it simply means saying one thing and believing another. He says he wants people to be able to do whatever they want ("whatever" isn't a limited term, getting married is included), but he admits he doesn't mean it in certain circumstances. That's hypocritical.

[HeavenSent]

1) Possibly, but it's a good discussion.

2) I'll be the first to be unapologetic on this one. If you're going to pontificate about letting people do what they want (and call people "self-righteous" in the same breath, no less), you should truly believe in that--not have HUGE invisible asteriks. "You should be able to do what you want... oh, unless you're gay. Did I mention that if you're gay, you should have to play by my rules? That's what I meant." Come on.
Yes, I'm going to jump on that. It's two-faced bullshit, and I can't abide by it. Was it baiting? A little, but he had already put himself out there. It's not like I was coming out of left field without provocation.

3)

You're coming down on genocidal for "name calling?" They could very well have been decent people around you, but then again, you aren't gay.

1) it is. ...better then i thought it would be... at least from some.
2) I'll be the first to be apologetic, I saw you coming with your agenda and I snapped. What i find intimidating about you is your energy to drive the topic in your direction. The value i put on the term marriage is personal, i'd never go on a crusade to be an activist against anything really. Except the identity of the anti-christ, that's why i was born, it's my ultimate destiny to publicly oppose him... among thousands of other Christians that will see beyond his veil of piety & deceit. As far as I'm concerned, live and let live, God is in control, it's all been written for everyone. We're all in one of the books.
3) nuff said :P

[Subjugation]

Our primal instincts are our natural urges. "If it feels good, do it." is how animals think...

Guys tend to be more promiscuous than girls. For some guys, when they get aroused, they have to bust their nut now. And for a relatively small amount of men, they don't care who busts their nut. Lenny Bruce, a famous comedian that opened the door to the likes of Richard Pryor, says it in a way i find profoundly true. I couldn't quote it exactly, but he says something like, 'Guys get so horny they don't care how they get off, guys will fuck mud if that's all they got.'...

...The side that desires to fit in with the norm overcomes the side that just wants to satisfy it's natural, instinctual desires to fulfill its primal urges.

We're created in the image of God, which means we're above the animals. Which also means our thoughts and rationale should be on a higher plane than all the other creatures on earth. It's the Christian's duty to not get into the habit of satisfying the desires of the flesh. We're to tame our natural, carnal instincts. The key word here IMO is HABIT. We all sin and as long as we occupy these carnal vessels, we'll continue to give into the flesh now and then. Don't get caught up in habitual sin.

... a Christian is taught to resist the urges that satisfy the flesh. Our victories over the flesh is the material used for our clothing in heaven. Everyone goes to heaven... but some are gonna be naked. The victory we have is the blood of Christ that covers our sins so the Father doesn't have to look at them. They're still there, but they're covered. It's that covering that becomes our garments in the next life. Right at the advent of Christ, they become as fine, pure, white linen. Judgment day isn't a judgment per se for the believer, it's rewards day

That's pretty funny. You basically just admitted that you're bisexual, but only allow yourself to have sex with women instead of men due to social and religious pressures. GG.

If you're attracted to men, but don't have sex with them---you're still gay, even if you get married to a woman and have kids. The REAL you is gay.,,and your marriage is a lie.

[404 Not Found]

OMG...what would happen if you had a child born as a hermaphrodite?

Would it be gay? How would it or you know? Parents of children in these cases have had doctors do surgery on them only to reveal later in life they gave them the wrong sex! So now they are f'd for life on top of the birth defect.

On a different subject...why are there Jesus pictures that show him with long blonde hair and blue eyes? I dunno....but the area of where he was born & raised as well as the peoples of this region that have lived there for centuries are not blonde and blue eyed. Did some Scandanvian lose his or her way and have a bit of fun with a red sea pedestrian woman or man?

Why is mother earth a woman...couldnt it be father earth?

Why is it father time?

I personally think God is a hermaphrodite!

[HeavenSent]

That's pretty funny. You basically just admitted that you're bisexual, but only allow yourself to have sex with women instead of men due to social and religious pressures. GG.

If you're attracted to men, but don't have sex with them---you're still gay, even if you get married to a woman and have kids. The REAL you is gay.,,and your marriage is a lie.

Interpret it how you wish, makes no difference to me. I'm not that relatively few. I'm pretty comfortable with my sexuality and my relationship with my wife and women. I think most gay men are terrified of women; or intimidated by them in some way. I crave women just as much as I crave just bustin' my nutt :fear:

[Galleleo]

Did he just say that he cheats on wpe and has women on the side? Now, if that isn't sinful.

[Subjugation]

Wow, his hostility towards homosexuals makes a lot more sense now.