War?

[Exalt]

look people i was in the US navy already, and i already asked top military people about the cold war... they told me back then that the cold war never ended, was just put on hold


well guess what fools, the cold war just started again... and in full speed... russia just pronounced itself to the world that it is again a world power, and because of that the cold war is back in FULL force

do not think for once second that the US isn't back into action with this... we know what is going on and we are going to beef up our military in accordance

lets all hope mccain, a former military member and POW as an officer in the NAVY, gets presidency... he won't negotiate with russia he will go into action...i know he is smart enough to not go into a full scale war with them, but will put equipment, support, and possibly military members into the former soviet countries to prevent russia from invading them....

he already said he wanted to do an air strike on the russian forces in georgia, because USA has air superiority... the russians do not have stealth technology like we do... basically we can bomb their tanks to hell right now... but I don't think he will do it to start a war, he will do it to protect a weaker nation than the russians in terms of military superiority... which is more a UN thing than anything....

Lets hope obama does not get elected...honestly this is the worst thing possible for his campaign... because he is not strong military wise... and mccain IS... russia is stupid if they want obama as president because this is the exact thing that WONT get him elected... bad move russia

[Kolar]

If Russia triggers another cold war, we will deal with it again, although I have to admit that with our choices of McCain or Obama, we will not have the strong leadership of Reagan to really stand up strong against Russia in that game of chess.

It's not a one way deal.

Also once again I disagree with you on the land matter, when fighting a war, for every territory you gain control over, the more people you have fighting in your army, especially a country that wouldn't have any problem killing you if you refused.
I just don't think an actual land battle is unheard of just because we are past the time in civilization where these battles should be occurring.

Land is not what world powers fight for today, it's about energy and other resources. Wars don't happen between countries like Russia and the United States, if they do they would be over quickly.

If they do not let go of Georgia then I think something has to happen. They've overstretched themselves by being in Gori so I don't see it happening. International politics is a little more then looking bad ass so no one fucks with you. The US has been aiding the Georgian military modernize and bulk up.

[kthx]

If Russia triggers another cold war, we will deal with it again, although I have to admit that with our choices of McCain or Obama, we will not have the strong leadership of Reagan to really stand up strong against Russia in that game of chess.

Also once again I disagree with you on the land matter, when fighting a war, for every territory you gain control over, the more people you have fighting in your army, especially a country that wouldn't have any problem killing you if you refused. I mean, an originally small country like Germany or France or an empire such as Rome during each of their time periods became powerful due to the amount of land they held. Now if it comes down to war, the fact that if Russia tries to take and hold more land than they can militarily it will also provide a huge weakness in their defenses and possibly leave them vulnerable to an attack on their capital of Moscow. I just don't think an actual land battle is unheard of just because we are past the time in civilization where these battles should be occurring.

As far as supporting Georgia with anything more than diplomacy.. I think that it would be worse if we just sit there condemning the Russians for what they are doing and then not backing it up. I mean the problem here isn't Russia attacking Georgia.. if anything you can say they are stretching their long unused military muscle. This is a test on the world.. to see who would dare challenge the nuclear ready military of Russia led by the dangerous ex-kGB agent and our friend Vlad. If we let them take Georgia and don't act, and our sanctions don't work, what is to stop them from taking lets say the Ukraine, and eventually recreating the Soviet Union.. and what about China, and Iran.. what we do right now basically sets the tone for what China and Iran feels like they can do from now on.. Will they be sent to their room without a meal, or will they be spanked?

The best idea would be to simply... Equip the Georgian army, basically we say.. you want to fight the Russians? Fine heres equipment and armor better than what the Russians have, but you are not allowed to go into their country, only to fight them off back to their own borders. The same goes for Israel, I think we should fully equip them, and if they want to blow Iran off the map for threatening to wipe them out all these years than do it.

[Kolar]

Obama and Mccain are both calling for Russia to leave South Ossetia. Mccain is surrounding himself with Neoconservatives on foreign policy but I think he is smart enough not to antagonize or force a military confrontation with Russia over South Ossetia.

[kthx]

His journey takes him to the year A.D. 802,701, where he finds an apparently peaceful, pastoral, communist,[1] future filled with happy, simple humans who call themselves the Eloi. The Eloi are about four feet tall (~122 cm), pink-skinned and frail-looking, with curly hair, small ears and mouths and large eyes. Males and females seem to be quite similar in build and appearance. They have high-pitched, soft voices and speak an unknown language. They appear to be quite unintelligent and child-like and live without quarrels or conflict.

Soon after his arrival he rescues Weena, a female Eloi he finds drowning in a river. Much to his surprise she is grateful to him and insists on following him.

The Eloi live in small communities within large and futuristic yet dilapidated buildings, doing no work and eating a frugivorous diet. The land around London has become a sort of untended garden filled with unusual fruiting and flowering plants, and similarly strange yet collapsing buildings and other structures, all clearly no longer used, dotted around. There is no evidence of the implementation of agriculture or technology, of which the Eloi seem incapable.

The Time Traveller is greeted with curiosity and without fear by the Eloi, who seem only vaguely surprised and curious by his appearance and lose interest rapidly. He disables the time machine and follows them to their commune and consumes a meal of fruit while trying to communicate with them. This proves somewhat ineffectual, as their unknown language and low intelligence hinders the Time Traveller from gaining any useful information. With a slight sense of disdain for his hosts' lack of curiosity and attention to him, the Time Traveller decides to explore the local area.

As he explores this landscape, the Time Traveller comments on the factors that have resulted in the Eloi's physical condition and society. He supposes that the lack of intelligence and vitality of the Eloi are the logical result of humankind's past struggle to transform and subjugate nature through technology, politics, art and creativity. With the realisation of this goal, the Eloi had devolved.

With no further need for technology, agriculture, or innovations to improve life, they became unimaginative and incurious about the world. With no work to do, they became physically weak and small in stature. Males, generally being breadwinners and workers in former times, have particularly degenerated in physique, explaining the lack of dimorphism between the sexes. The Time Traveller supposes that preventive medicine has been achieved, as he saw no sign of disease amongst his hosts. With no work to do and no hardships to overcome, society became non-hierarchical and non-cooperative, with no defined leaders or social classes.

The fact that there was no hardship or inequalities in societies meant there was no war and crime. Art and sophisticated culture, often driven by problems and aspirations or a catalyst for solutions and new developments, had waned, as no problems existed and there were no conceivable improvements for humanity. He accounted for their relatively small numbers as being due to the implementation of some form of birth control to eliminate the problems of overpopulation. The abandoned structures around him would suggest that prior to these achievements, the population had been larger and more productive, toiling to find the solution that would make the new utopia a reality.

As the sun sets, the Time Traveller muses on where he will sleep. Retracing his steps back to the building where he had eaten with the Eloi, he suddenly realizes that the time machine is missing. He panics and desperately searches for the vehicle. At first, he suspects that the Eloi have moved it to their shelter. He doubts the Eloi would be capable or inclined to do this, but nonetheless rushes back to the shelter and demands to know where his machine is. The Eloi are confused and a little frightened by this. Realising the Eloi don't understand him and he is damaging his position with them, he continues his search in desperation during the night before relenting and falling into an uneasy sleep.

The Utopian existence of the Eloi turns out to be deceptive. The Traveller soon discovers that the class structure of his own time has in fact persisted, and the human race has diverged into two branches. The wealthy, leisured classes appear to have devolved into the ineffectual, not very bright Eloi he has already seen; but the downtrodden working classes have evolved into the bestial Morlocks, cannibal hominids resembling human spiders, who toil underground maintaining the machinery that keep the Eloi — their flocks — docile and plentiful. Both species, having adapted to their routines, are of distinctly sub-human intelligence.

----- H. G. Wells


I hate to be so lame by posting the plot from a book and basically pointing out that this is the direction that Al Gore, and many liberalists are trying to take this world into. We are almost there.. We have the Eloi (the UN and soon the US after Obama gains presidency) and the Morlocks (Russia and China). And we are just too stupid and weak to do anything to stop these terrible beings from occasionally raiding us during the night and taking away a few of our fellow democracies in the world.

[Kolar]

I don't want any party to be soft on Russia. I also don't want them to trigger a war or new cold war. I believe countries like Georgia should be able to decide their own future including joining NATO and holding self-determination on trade and resources. Russia on the other hand wants isolation and fear to dominate the region.

People don't fight for land in the sense that it matters for expanding their territory, they do for energy and resources, that includes holding sway over important regions but obviously not massive expanses of land. So making analogies to Germany circa WW1 and 2 is wrong. One is dominating and fighting over the socio-political regions, the other is purely controlling the static, physical land in the region. The reason there's a fight for it is because there are limited resources. Russia and China are rising economically and need cheap energy to continue to grow. It's all about economic growth, if one country gets the best of the other they can become the more influential nation of the 21st century.

Doing anything beyond diplomatically support Georgia would be disastrous for us all. They're doing everything they can to force a confrontation. The problem is even a small one could spiral out of control. I agree with you that a lot of nations including my own do not spend enough on their military. But that decision can not be made with military aggression in mind.

[kthx]

So Kolar what do you expect them to do, you do realize the pipeline that Russia just captured was the pipeline from which much of the oil received in Europe is sent through? People still need oil, they will buy it from Russia, therefore economical sanctions will NOT work on Russia.

And personally, attitudes like yours is really why we Russia is even considered a threat as it is today. Canada and Europe think alike, and Obama wants America to follow in your footsteps. However, if countries in Europe hadn't gone soft after WW2 and foreseen that in the future military aggressions towards them would happen, then Russia's comments and attitude as far as sticking the middle finger in the air to the world wouldn't be tolerated. Now look at the situation that was caused due to poor national security on the part of countries who always wanted to go the diplomatic route.

Kolar, you say that land wars are not fought anymore... but you are wrong, a war about land is going on right now, but not for the land, for whats under it. Do you also realize Russia is claiming control of the North Pole I believe and are planning to start drilling there soon? Why would a country need all this oil all of the sudden unless it was.. just maybe.. planning a large military invasion on perhaps a larger country that they had lost before. Maybe.. I don't know.. Ukraine? And Georgia was not the provoker in this occasion, Russia armored forces were already on the border of Georgia when this war broke out, having been moved there three weeks prior to the Olympic Games. You do realize how long it takes to plan, and move armored equipment through or over mountainous areas don't you?

As far as you not thinking we could do something.. Maybe this will be a wakeup call to all the countries who think they can not spend money on their military and national defense and expect everything to be ok just because we are apparently past a time where blood is shed for land.

[Kolar]

now honestly, who in the EU will help poland if russia invades or keeps threatening nuclear retaliation?

Again Exalt it doesn't fucking matter. If Russia invaded Poland or any other country were NATO has extensive influence it will mean the end of the world. They already target their strategic nuclear arsenal at targets in Europe. Diplomacy (aka negotiating) is the only option. The year is 2008 not 1940. Major powers don't find over land anymore. While Russia was wrong for invading they were likely provoked into a response (of overwhelming force) by the Georgians. They do have a legitimate legal right to South Ossetia but probably should have expected Russia to respond in force.

oh well, have fun europe, russia is in your backyard not ours... why should we do shit about anything close to you when you just complain about how bad we are all the time?

I honestly don't see any people here bitching about the US. The United States and Russia have its interests to protect, mainly energy. Iraq has weakened our ability to call BS on Russia doing their own thing and has put two major powers against each other. All this stupid, mind numbing bullshit about who needs who more is garbage. That line of thinking got us to where we are now in the Middle East.

The EU is not a military or defense alliance, it is an economic and territorial union. To that end there's little to no military integration and bolstering within the union. NATO has little influence in the region due to Russian opposition, still seriously taxed with Iraq and Afghanistan. If it did this probably wouldn't be such a minor conflict.

[sonlox]

wow this is a first, i agree with wark and exalt on most of the points. :fear:
Russia will want to expand but who will fight back. only country i can see is Germany, rest of EU is a joke.

[Exalt]

now honestly, who in the EU will help poland if russia invades or keeps threatening nuclear retaliation?

europe does not care about other countries, and they get all pissed off if anyone interferes, yet if its russia knocking on THEIR door they are the first to call up USA for help

go fuck yourselves, i think its time for USA to just let russia do w/e it pleases, let the UN and EU handle it since they bitch about the US so much

oh well, have fun europe, russia is in your backyard not ours... why should we do shit about anything close to you when you just complain about how bad we are all the time?

seriously, learn a lesson here from history... we've bailed you out on so many occasions yet no matter what everything is our fault if something goes wrong. maybe your countries should do something about world issues then?

do you really think you can "negotiate" your way out of everything? you dont even have a significant military force to stop russia if they decided to invade... so your just going to "negotiate" right? just like you negotiated with hitler... that worked out real well didn't it

fucking fools always saying "ww2 is the past" yet history repeats itself, expect it to

[Zerzera]

I partly agree with wark.

[Krazie_Killer]

WW3 will commence before U.S. gets a new president.

(US will invade iran from iraq)

[kthx]

Yeah Mannnnn, me and izor are the same person... isn't it trippy duuude. Lets get high and talk about the possible space time vortex involved in this maaan.

[gran guerrero]

I think izor and wark are the same person

[kthx]

liberals are anti-american?

obama is the anti-christ?

If you disagree with America you're a communist?

global warming is secretly a socialist movement?


and finally;



I feel the exact same way as you.

Cops isn't an American?

We should listen to his jaded views on America?

Canada has socialized medicine?

Socialization and transfer of wealth is basically communism?

BTW, Obama might not actually be the anti-christ obviously that is a bit of a joke. However his entire economic strategy revolves around...

1. Creating green jobs.

2. Not drilling for oil.

3. Taxing Oil Companies.

4. Increasing Taxes.

5. Increasing government spending by a trillion dollars.

For a citizen of the world, this is a pretty terrible basis for economic success. There is no such thing as green jobs, what will we do.. build solar panels and build windmills.. However I do know that drilling for oil (from living in Texas) helps cities such as the one I live in escape economic turmoil that I see in the rest country.

Not drilling for oil, when Russia is making a huge powergrab for one of the largest oil pipelines in Georgia maybe you don't realize how important it is for America to start drilling for its own oil before both the US and Europe are having to beg for oil from the Russian "czar" while he takes back the former Soviet Union.

He wants to yell at Oil Companies for making money... well they produce a service that people use, therefore they should be making a profit, it costs them a billion dollars a day to run Exxon/Mobil... of course they are going to make money. Carter tried taxing the oil companies once.. all that happened was they decided to leave America and go give oil to countries that are willing to pay for their services without taxing the shit out of them. Besides companies don't pay for tax increases, consumers do when we are passed along the costs.

You can't tax your way out of a recession, even if he only raises income tax (even though he is going to be raising alot more taxes that people who make less than 250,000 dollars will have to pay) on people who make 250,000 dollars a year.. these are the people who provide jobs for the people who don't get taxes.. therefore they will have to fire employees to make up for the cost of the higher taxes.

Why would or should we trust to government to run anything, we have already seen them try to run businesses... and they have failed miserably while doing so. Look at Social Security, Look at the Post Office (-1billion dollar debt) look at Freddy Mac and Fanny Mae.. all failed government businesses. So yeah.. lets give them a trillion dollars to fail with.. maybe that will work.

Besides all this, he hates Israel, is friends with people who hates Jews, and White people, and friends with terrorists.. and last but not least, wanted to have a vice president who just got caught cheating on his wife sick with cancer and having a secret child with her... what a joke of a potential leader for America.