War?

[404 Not Found]

Ive said this atleast a thousand times, but one of the largest reasons for animosity in the ME is due to the US presence in Saudi Arabia, the locals absolutely hate the fact that US troops are stationed in their "Holy Land", and if they had their way would kick them all out of the region. (This ofc wont happen as long as its rules follow the plans set by King Fahd, which Abdullah bin Fahd is doing... which is a bit of a shame since i think the ME might have been better of had Sultan bin Fahd been the successor, but thats another topic entirely.

The U.S. has been out of Suadi Arabia for awhile now...since we left the Prince Sultan Air Base in 2003.

[Displaced]

truth....

I've said this for years, and it is one of the areas i will debate with anyone since i have first hand experience from the Middle East. (Ive spent more than half of my life in the Middle East, and no I am not of Arabic descent nor am i Muslim)

I still don't understand why it is so hard for most Americans to fathom that over 90% of Arabs do not want the US to have bases or any kind of presence in the ME, yet the US won't give up and still try to gain as much of a economic foothold in the region as possible.

Ive said this atleast a thousand times, but one of the largest reasons for animosity in the ME is due to the US presence in Saudi Arabia, the locals absolutely hate the fact that US troops are stationed in their "Holy Land", and if they had their way would kick them all out of the region. (This ofc wont happen as long as its rules follow the plans set by King Fahd, which Abdullah bin Fahd is doing... which is a bit of a shame since i think the ME might have been better of had Sultan bin Fahd been the successor, but thats another topic entirely :P)

The US presence in Iraq is also a problem, many see the US presence in Iraq as a springboard to other operations in the Middle East, and quite franckly this is something that i am somewhat apprehensive of. Not tho mention the fact that many still hail Saddam Hussein as a hero after the first Gulf War, as he was able to "withstand the US onslaught". (ok, not quite the whole truth since the US wouldve got him had they wanted to, but the truth is irrelevant :P) Others view Saddam as a martyr who gave his life fighting the oppressive United States... (which again is not my view, but the view of many of the people who reside in the area)

The Israel - Palestine issue has been around forever, and it will continue to be around for as long as there are people living in the ME. The conflict is so far gone, and is so rooted in the psyche of the people, that I personally find it very hard to forsee a cease-fire or peace negotiation that will actually hold.
I also find it improbable the the gulf states will stop supporting organisations like Hamas or Fatah al Islamiia, or that the US will stop supporting Israel, nor do I see Israel leaving the occupied areas of Palestine, and giving Palestine Jerusalem.

Iran, the iran issue has been covered earlier by gran and 404, so i wont go any deeper into that, but you think people are pleased about it?

As for possible "solutions" to the whole problem, I still can't see any viable alternatives to pulling out of the region completely, It should ease some of the animocity against the US in time, and although i would not be able to predict what would happen to Israel or the fact that the government in KSA may be toppled without US support, it would work itself out eventually.
You cannot force change onto a country or set of countries and expect things to actually change over night, peoples political beliefs, perceptions, religious views, traditions, etc do not change in a matter of months, it takes time, and these would develop faster if people were allowed to make up their own mind, rather than being told what to do.

[gran guerrero]

404 I'm ready to get on my knees for you.

[Vykromond]

what do 99.9% of these posts have to do with georgia or russia, did i miss something

[404 Not Found]

But they don't want to see the fact that those counties USA went to war against, were leaded by dictators who believed in Ideology that is the opposite to what they (the Europeans) believe. What human rights were in Iraq and Afghanistan? How many people died BEFORE USA got there?

But its easy to criticize USA, its very popular you see.

Let me start some of the criticizing in regards to the U.S.

Dude, you’re speaking out of your ass on a lot of this. You are not American so don't speak for my country and govt. as if you have a political science & American history degree and are registered to vote in the States.

You mention dictators...do you even understand that the dictators you seemingly make note of generically had been trained by the U.S. military and put into these governments as dictators backed by the U.S. government?

Noriega the Panamanian general and the military dictator of Panama from 1983 to 1989 we trained and put into power, Saddam Hussein made it to power after the CIA helped finance the coupe that led to his taking power, The Shah of Iran was put in power to take advantage of the profits for the Oil Companies such as B.P. I am surprised that people do not realize that the Islamic Revolution-Uprising in Iran in 1979 coincides with the date of when the Shah was made Dictator of Iran...this guy kept all the profits from the oil to himself and of course to the oil companies that had contracts...he kept his people in Iran as slaves somewhat...thank you however to the U.S. govt. on that botched job, maybe if the Shah treated his own people with respect and dignity, there would never have been an uprising, but he again was put into power by the U.S. and U.K. for corporate profits relating to oil revenues; Ferdinand Marco's is another in noting the problems with the Philippines...so many of them actually, for example, the United States supported the fascist dictatorship of Rafael Trujillo, who was a dictator in the Dominican Republic from 1930 to 1961. The CIA played a considerable role in the overthrowing of Chilean President Salvador Allende in 1973 by Augusto Pinochet, who is credited with a 17-year reign of oppression and terror, which made him a candidate for War crimes against his own people...and for what? Sum it up and all this ads up for justification that the U.S. can preach about Democracy and human rites? ...oh please.

Pakistan is another hot seat noting Pakistan's Musharraf stepping down, and the country is facing a populist uprising. I wonder how that will go over in the next few years. Pakistan has nukes as well...and yet people are worried about Iran? The Taliban and Al Queda are not in Iran...they are in Pakistan and yet we continue to sell arms to this country that does not meet what the supposed U.S. ethics are in dealing with countries run by dictators?

So as far as the U.S. going to war against Dictators, realize we more or less created almost every one of these situations. This is not the U.S. making the world safer for the planets sake, but the U.S. cleaning up the mess it created by meddling in the first place when it probably should not have.

Shit....the U.S. Govt. can't even keep a promise to its own native Americans, why should they really care about the rest of the world...it's all about profits, huge corporate profits and not human rites and democracy. If you really believe what you have noted Farscape, your living in a dream.

[Cops]

If we go to war with Iran we destroy ourselves, if we go to war with Russia we destroy ourselves.

since you’re an idiot and someone else already explained it, here it is again.

Any non-proxy war between Russia or China and the US and her allies will be nuclear.

Is that a good enough explanation for you?

Do you think your country would be here if not for the U.S. being right here to protect you? With your pathetic military and French-like tendencies for cowardice, you would have been destroyed long ago, by a more powerful nation who didn't care if you wanted to remain peaceful and really didn't give a shit whether or whether not you tried to stay out of every other countries business.

The french are one of the reasons you enjoy your freedom so much, Canada also is one of the reasons the Allies won in WW1 and WW2.

I don't see how you can sit back and try to say that America hasn't for the most part used its powers in the world for good. And so what about Vietnam, it was because of a weak president that that war was ended in the first place, a stronger president who was more willing to see it through would have finished it up, we had the power to.

Once again you don't understand history, America should have never gone into Vietnam just like they never should have gone into Iraq. These pointless wars have no clear margin for success, you can't occupy a country for thirty years until they want to stop killing each other. Look at your economy douchebag, it's been going right down the pooper for awhile, at some point you and the other millions of zealots will realize that fighting for 'democracy' has crippled your nation.

[gran guerrero]

the big powers in the world don't want peace in the middle east, if they did then they wouldn't have supplied the countries with the military weapons and tactics that the west has created for themselves, the US wouldn't have put Saddam in power (WE ALREADY ARRESTED HIM BEFORE GEORGE BUSH JR. AND LET HIM GO), nor Osama Bin laden (A FUCKING USA CIA AGENT) nor any other fucking piece of shit that pops its ugly head in the middle east.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not muslim, and I don't live in the middle east, I live in the United States of America, but I have been to my homeland before and my parents understand the shitstorm that is over there. It pisses me off that people like Exalt think it has to be the fucking muslims who are causing all this shit, and people like Farscape who wants sympathy because he's always under attack, yet his country has tanks and a military whereas the palestinians are throwing rocks and the only attack that they really have is suicide bombing (which don't get me wrong, I DON'T CONDONE NOR DOES ANY OTHER SENSIBLE HUMAN BEING IN THE WORLD), but when you push people into a corner they do crazy shit.

Really the only logical conclusion is TO LEAVE THEM ALONE, because they obviously had democracy coming into Iran when they had Mossadegh, but USA AND BRITISH INTELLIGENCE SAW THIS AS A THREAT TO THEIR LINK TO THE OIL. so they fucking assassinated him because he basically told both countries to stop mooching off our shit.

So please.... PLEASE understand that world powers don't give a shit about the middle east, in fact they want them to kill each other off. They support all sides with weapons and instigate more violence, so once everyone is good and dead, they can come in and set up more military bases to safeguard themselves from china/russia and have all the fucking oil they could ask for.



EDIT: Also all those Jihad and Hezbollah fucks out there, that only represents those who have a radical fundamentalist view of islam just like there are radical fundamentalists in christianity and judiasm and every other fucking religion in the world. My father is a devout follower of Islam and his interpretation of Jihad is to protect oneself from forces that threaten your beliefs. He doesn't see the need in killing other people, but those who follow it fanatically will.

[Capital Knockers]

I wasn't trying to say FarScape was wrong or anything Exalt, I just don't think he's really getting anywhere here. All he's going to get, is one big headache. You speak of the middle-east/US conflict alot like my father would when we'd argue over this stuff. However, he's been in those countries, and being there the one greatest point he came out with was this.

All these countries, are constantly fighting over age old problems. They continue fighting, creating new reasons to be angry. Blowing the shit out of each other, keeping the Middle East in a terrible state. They have to either learn to live with each other, or they will eventually end up just destroying that part of the world. It's entirely themselves they have to blame. lol, you should see how worked up my dad gets, he's not racist, but the way he talks about the terrorists and stuff, you'd think so.

I personally don't think it will ever end, until that peice of the world has a nuke or something go off and take out a rather large portion of it.

Edit - ah, i just said alot of shit my dad said. his main point, to which Im starting to agree the older i get - is either everyone gets involved, like im talking the world (not going to happen) or just let them go at it. We're never going to stop the hate, the fighting, it's too deep. These people need to kill each other off, the best we can do is try to protect the innocents. Maybe we shouldn't be doing anything at all but watching to make sure they don't hurt anyone but themselves. I mean really, these countries are always helped, funded, everything by bigger countries. We should just fuck off entirely, let them blow each other up, once they realize no one else is getting involved, things will simmer down eventually, one way or another. Then the world can take a more concentrated and direct strike at peace in the region.

[gran guerrero]

You know Iran has jews living in the country right

Wait you probably didn't know that, because you obviously don't know everything except what you see on media.

RADICAL MUSLIMS EVERYWHERE IN MIDDLE EAST, OMG SAVE US ALL

You know at first watching You don't mess with the Zohan, I just saw idiotic humor that's usually adam sandler's style, but on second thought it had some really good points. This whole conflict shit is stupid and pointless, the palestinians and the israelies are practically the same besides that whole religion concept (and if you think the fight is over religion, then you are fucking stupid. The fight is for the land)

Making general assumptions will make you look like a retard.

[Kolar]

The Palestinian conflict is about land. I can't begin to imagine living in an area so divided and threatened but to dumb down the problem as: Muslim = killers, kill Muslims = no problem. And not all Palestinians are radical Muslims or even religious, it's more proper to refer to them as Palestinians or simply Arabs. There are more issues with infighting now then terrorist attacks. Israel is not a passive nation and they have provoked a lot of territorial issues, but they're also not at fault for a lot of the violence in the region. To understand the problem you have to at least look at the core reason the conflict began. Right or wrong people don't spontaneously orchestrate these attacks because their all Muslim fanatics and "hate our freedom".

Clinton didn't negotiate with Al-Qaeda. He went after Bin Laden without destroying an entire country and openly admits he failed to get him. Invading Afghanistan wasn't about catching him so much as it was with removing the Taliban which allowed the organization to exist there. Iraq was about spreading the sphere of influence the US had in the region initially under the guise of a nuclear/biological/chemical threat to the US. It was not a response to 9/11 nor was it a threat to our security. Those who use terrorism as a tactic have one goal is that is to instill fear in their target. If anything placing Western military personnel overseas makes it easier for them, and accomplishes one of their other goals: to financially bankrupt America.

[Displaced]

how can people be so delusional?

[Troll King]

The U.S. wasn't the only country to react after 9/11 - most countries supported the U.S. in the war in Afghanistan and many of those allies are still there. It was the Iraqi war that drew criticism and that one had very tenuous links to 9/11. Let's not make the common mistake of lumping them both together.

[Exalt]

FarScape bud, I used to shark with you alot. You always seemed like a chill dude, so I'm here to let you know. Shark to Shark - you aren't getting anywhere in this forums topic.

look, i can see where farscape is coming from, because he lives in a country that is surrounded by muslim nations that have nothing but blind hate for isreal

most of those countries are by definition run by terrorists, and isreal has to do anything it can to survive

he supports he US because the US and Isreal are probably the biggest allies around, the US would do anything it could to keep Isreal safe, because after clearing away all the bullshit, they DESERVE to be safe and live in their homes without worrying about nations around them wanting them all dead for the mere fact that they are not muslims

I have no sympathy for countries like afghanistan and iraq and iran etc etc, they are the radical religious governments that promote hate toward any nation that isn't muslim... isreal is at least passive, it stays in its own territory unless provoked, which probably happens on a daily basis with RPGs and gunfire from across the border bombarding them everday

imagine living in a country where you are afraid to go on the bus or walk to work because a suicide bomber who wants nothing but you and your family to all die blows himself up in a crowd of children

you cant imagine that because you don't live in that.. but farscape DOES

so really i have no respect for anyone that tries to pull liberal bullshit on him saying "isreal is at fault they love war" when really they just don't feel like getting attacked by terrorists any longer

US got put in the same situation with 9/11, so we reacted. Most european countries would try to negotiate instead, which does not work with terrorists. They negotiated with Hitler, look what happened. US does not negotiate, we react.

Honestly, none of the terrorists like Bin Laden thought the US would come back for them. They screwed up. They acted like every terrorist mind, which is to "fuck some shit up", but they didn't think it would be on such a large scale. I really don't think they thought the towers would fall, or they might have reconsidered, because they never intended for the US to come back for their heads. They bombed the trade centers during Clinton's presidency and he just negotiated, they probably figured it would be the same. Bush didn't negotiate, and on that respect he made a good decision. Make the terrorists learn that there are consequences for their actions.

[Heroin Bob]

yo Kolar, i think what he is pointing out about criticism of the US is that it is the popular thing to do for people who aren't educated and just wanna agree with the majority. its not hard to look smart if every one agrees with you.

[Capital Knockers]

FarScape bud, I used to shark with you alot. You always seemed like a chill dude, so I'm here to let you know. Shark to Shark - you aren't getting anywhere in this forums topic.