John McCain vs Barack Obama Mega-Politic-Thread of super fun awesomeness.

[Zerzera]

Bottom line with that is that you're going to believe what you want. Some people here probably truly do believe every story there and that all of those points are valid. Of course you do, because you're voting for Obama. This guy must never tell a lie or do anything dirty. He can bring up all the things from McCains past without any second questions, but if McCain's camp calls him a terrorist hes 'getting desperate because the cnn poll of polls has him down X points'. I'm just going to put it out there that there is no way with these 2 candidates that either one of them looks that good by comparison to the other. I am having a very difficult time finding ANY article on cnn that makes the GOP look good. The bias is ridiculous. While fox news may lean the other way, the extent of it is not nearly as bad as the liberal media stations. I still see good articles about Obama on foxnews just like I see good articles about McCain, but that still doesnt make them 'fair and balanced'. They just dont play one side and one side only

I agree.

[Jerome Scuggs]

Yeah sorry for trying to discuss your ideology with you. But I don't think anyone can do everything, no one can master all skills human kind has mastered. You simply don't have the time, so why not depend on people to do something for you? Even govern.

The fact that people can't do everything is exactly why economic specialization and division of labor are so effective at distributing resources.

The post you quoted was in a different context - basically a ranking of preferences (serving coffee > farming), but that doesn't mean if I had to hands-down, no-alternative become a farmer, I couldn't.

You treat "governing" as an independent, abstract concept - something that only "governments" can do. Look at any price that the government doesn't control - who do you suppose governs the price of, say, shoes? You'll find that in fact, the millions of individuals participating within a market have influence and control over prices, and much more - such as resource allocation itself.

[Zerzera]

The fact that people can't do everything is exactly why economic specialization and division of labor are so effective at distributing resources.

The post you quoted was in a different context - basically a ranking of preferences (serving coffee > farming), but that doesn't mean if I had to hands-down, no-alternative become a farmer, I couldn't.

You treat "governing" as an independent, abstract concept - something that only "governments" can do. Look at any price that the government doesn't control - who do you suppose governs the price of, say, shoes? You'll find that in fact, the millions of individuals participating within a market have influence and control over prices, and much more - such as resource allocation itself.

I am sure that you believe you could survive if you would have to struggle for survival. But the point is that you still gave it out of hand. And since you aren't supporting yourself in these, you gave power to others. What's wrong in that? You don't have to struggle. If the crops in your town would be destroyed during a cold winter, you still have overcapacity on the other side of the country. Or you could import.
And even if you would have to farm food yourself, you might never be as good a farmer as the people you could have bought from, and you probably won't be living the life you want, because you would prefer to serve coffee.
So I think we both can agree on this point being true.

Governing a region is nothing else than a profession, and in the Netherlands we agreed to the price we pay for a government, just like you would agree to the price of a harvest or the costs of a coffee in the coffee shop.
You say the price of shoes is regulated by the people, but so should the government.

[Jerome Scuggs]

There's a step missing in your analysis of power - it's as if politicians and businessmen have the same sort of power, and within a society that power is merely transferred from one group to another.

Power in the hands of individuals is indeed "power", but it is far, far less damaging and is rarely a cause for concern. The most vicious businessman, with his perceived massive amounts of economic power, is still bound by market economics - supply, demand, profit, loss. A businessman, exerting his utmost power, can still not compel an individual to act against his will.

Political power is power made infinite. Political power allows an individual to compel another individual to act against his will. Political power allows immoral acts to be made legal.

It's true that a businessman can always potentially attempt to enforce or coerce - but every action he takes in that manner is illegal. There is no question or justification. With political power, such questions or justifications can be outright avoided - or merely made legal.

Power, when passed to the government, morphs to a potentially corrosive and disastrous sort of power.

The Role of Power

The Nature of Man and His Government

Anatomy of the State

[Cops]

If you have as many conservative views as you claim to, you should be wishing that mccain would win, because he comes the closest to the ideals you just spoke of. Obama wants to rape big businesses. Clearly something you claim to be against. Regulation is something that can be good in moderation, but Obama wants the government to be in charge of a lot more than it should.

Look up the term progressive conservative, I can be economically conservative and still socially concious. I understand the necessity for business and growth within my country. I believe in finding a balance in taxing corporations, upper class, middle class, and lower class.

You must promote corporations in your country by lowering corporate tax, but also realizing that their tax money is essential. Republicans and Democrats argue about the amount corporations need to be taxed, and most times it's hard to find a balance between not letting them get a free ride and not forcing business out of your country.

I understand that $5000 a year to a person who makes under 30k is a huge deal, and that $5000 to someone who makes 200k isn't such a big deal. I understand people work hard for their money and that they deserve a lot of what they make, but you also live in a free country and that costs money. I don't think the rich are being bled dry, on the other hand expecting low income families to carry the burden of taxes is morally and ethically wrong.

When you live in a household that makes $30,000 after taxes try and figure out how to pay your mortgage or rent cause you most likely don't own your house, pay for your kids to go to school, pay for fuel, pay for car insurance, pay for medical expenses, pay for health insurance, pay for groceries and see if you have any money left.

You're against the Iraq war and have said so in previous posts. Now you're flip-flopping and saying we cant leave to suit your argument.

I was never for the Iraq war, and I never will be. The war was started on a grand facade that involved the American government . However I do know that America is there and that the countries 'democracy' is so fragile that to do massive pullout would force the country back into chaos. You need to pull out troops slowly, and let Iraqis police themselves. Pulling out troops slowly would relieve the economic tension this war is costing your country.

I truly dont think you believe anything you just said. You're just saying it to act like you're not a liberal. Do you really manage to convince yourself that you havent been influenced by the media? What DO you agree on Obama with?

Getting out of Iraq, and not thinking that this is a war that can be won. Stabilizing the country instead of taking a failed Vietnam approach to this war.

Foreign Policy - Forcing America to negotiate with countries, showing the ability to talk and deal with nations instead of talking down to them.

Healthcare - Addressing the issue, not forcing citizens to adopt Universal Healthcare but cutting costs by promoting a pool of money in which all citizens can pay into and use. It's basically a two tear system, and since Universal Healthcare will never in my life time be adopted this is a viable solution. Cutting overhead by creating a system outside of the private sector.

Tax Shifting - Shifting the burden of taxes from low income families to people who can actually afford it, closing the gaps between tax brackets. For example someone who makes $32,551 should not be paying 25% of their income in taxes, same as someone who falls a few thousand under $78,850 should not be paying the same percentage as someone who makes $32,551 per year.

I believe Obama wants to raise taxes by 2-3%, to people who make $173,501 to $366,650. Lowering taxes during a war was quite possibly one of the stupidest things Bush ever did. Raising taxes by a few percent won't screw people who pull in close to 200,000, plus it's just going back to what taxes were before 2001.

Being Fiscally Responsible - Spending money where you need to spend it, and cutting costs where you can.

[Izor]

Government is absolutely TERRIBLE at spending money wisely, and I can explain why in a very simple way. The program I work for gets X dollars annually. We spend some of it in TDY's, upgrades, work related stuff, etc, but if we dont spend it by the end of the fiscal year they'll lower our budget because obviously we dont need that much. Clearly this leads to very much end-of-year spending that may or may not be necessary. The problem here is people, though. Hell yeah I'm going to pimp out my office with a plasma screen tv if given the opportunity, but its not the right thing to do for this country in the grand scheme of things, seeing as how taxpayers are responsible for those costs. The other part of this is that its very, very hard to tell what programs are and arent working in the government due to pencil whipping. The air force is full of dirtbag troops, but yet everyone gets a 5 come eval time. Interesting!

We will never see eye to eye on this. If I have 249,000 there is no motivation for me to work harder to get 250k seeing as how ill be poorer than I was with 250,000 after taxes. You are not at all economically conservative. It's impossible with your views on 'protecting the middle class.' 25% is 25% its the same hit if you make 250000 or 25000. The person that makes 250000 rightfully deserves to have whatever luxuries he has afforded. The poorer person should make a harder attempt to move up if it bothers him that much.

"a pool of money all people can put into and use" sounds like "a pool of money that few people will put into and all people will (try to) use" youd have to explain to me the common sense behind that plan

[kthx]

Foreign Policy - Forcing America to negotiate with countries, showing the ability to talk and deal with nations instead of talking down to them.

Wouldn't McCain be better on this, since has years more experience in the matter, and has shown a bi-partisan voting record than someone who always decides to vote left all the way down the list. Someone who could understand both sides of another political figures thinking would be much better. On top of this I don't think Obama has been through the hardships that would allow him to sit down and hold his own vs someone like Putin. Also we need a president that understand that the people we sit down and discuss things with need to at least admit that there was a holocaust before hand.

Healthcare - Addressing the issue, not forcing citizens to adopt Universal Healthcare but cutting costs by promoting a pool of money in which all citizens can pay into and use. It's basically a two tear system, and since Universal Healthcare will never in my life time be adopted this is a viable solution. Cutting overhead by creating a system outside of the private sector.

You are right but Obama does want to institute a socialized health care system that will fail. There is a reason why America has some of the best doctors in the world, because the better doctors get paid better. And nobody and I mean nobody ever gets turned down at an ER, they are forced to treat anyone and everything, if payment isn't made they don't throw you in jail they just harass you. I don't understand how most countries have such terrible ideas about the US health care system, Medical bills can NEVER go against your credit rating so if you owe X hospital 5000000 dollars for surgery it doesn't even matter. Leave the health care system alone, I disagree with both candidates on this matter, but Obama more than McCain.

[QUOTE=Cops;664206]

Tax Shifting - Shifting the burden of taxes from low income families to people who can actually afford it, closing the gaps between tax brackets. For example someone who makes $32,551 should not be paying 25% of their income in taxes, same as someone who falls a few thousand under $78,850 should not be paying the same percentage as someone who makes $32,551 per year.

I believe Obama wants to raise taxes by 2-3%, to people who make $173,501 to $366,650. Lowering taxes during a war was quite possibly one of the stupidest things Bush ever did. Raising taxes by a few percent won't screw people who pull in close to 200,000, plus it's just going back to what taxes were before 2001.

Yes but that is just federal income tax, are you purposefully forgetting to mention all the other taxes he wants to add, the capital gains tax which is already one of the highest in the world, that will cause even more problems with our market. People will stop investing in our market because of the heavy taxes on the market, on top of that, taxes you pay in your 401k and Roth IRA's will also be higher. That isn't mentioning the long list of other taxes that will be raised to institute Obama's trillion dollars in new spending in an already overtaxed budget.

Being Fiscally Responsible - Spending money where you need to spend it, and cutting costs where you can.

Fiscal responsibility, I think to answer this question all you need to do is look at the people each candidate chooses to ask financial questions to, while at the same time keeping in mind which side of the aisle saw this problem several years ago. Franklin Raines and Jim Johnson who I am sure anyone who is as involved in American politics as you seem to wish you were know of.

Neither candidate is someone I would personally like to vote for, but I am really left with no choice but to vote for McCain, the only thing I can really hope for is that if McCain does lose that the next election we will have a real conservative running, someone like Bobby Jindal.

[Cops]

Government is absolutely TERRIBLE at spending money wisely, and I can explain why in a very simple way. The program I work for gets X dollars annually. We spend some of it in TDY's, upgrades, work related stuff, etc, but if we dont spend it by the end of the fiscal year they'll lower our budget because obviously we dont need that much. Clearly this leads to very much end-of-year spending that may or may not be necessary. The problem here is people, though. Hell yeah I'm going to pimp out my office with a plasma screen tv if given the opportunity, but its not the right thing to do for this country in the grand scheme of things, seeing as how taxpayers are responsible for those costs. The other part of this is that its very, very hard to tell what programs are and arent working in the government due to pencil whipping. The air force is full of dirtbag troops, but yet everyone gets a 5 come eval time. Interesting!

You are not at all economically conservative. It's impossible with your views on 'protecting the middle class.'

On the contrary economically it makes sense for a society to promote growth at all levels, the more business and money made means more money that flucuates through your society. You cannot rely on your government to just tax the rich but that's what happens when you don't promote growth for the lower and middle class. Once a society moves towards a higher level of income it ultimately means more money in your economy.

Once a country is at a point where there is growth and vitality in the market then the first cuts to be made to tax payers are the upper class, they have ultimately paid the most in taxes and at which point they should be rewarded.

25% is 25% its the same hit if you make 250000 or 25000.

25% of 25,000 is $6,250 which leaves that person with a total income of $18,750.

Let's do an informal chart of that persons costs

Rent - 800 x 12 = $9,600
Food - 250 x 12 = $3,000
Fuel - 100 x 12 = $1200
Car Insurance 120 x 12 = $1200
Car Repair 50 x 12 = $600


For a Grand total of $15,600, don't forget other costs they may deal with and the fact that health insurance is a pipe dream for these people. For you to say that for a person who makes 250,000 is hit just as hard as someone who makes 25,000 shows you don't understand what it's like to be poor or even live on a budget.

We will never see eye to eye on this. If I have 249,000 there is no motivation for me to work harder to get 250k seeing as how ill be poorer than I was with 250,000 after taxes.

For someone who makes $200,000 a year paying an extra $4,000 does not hinder their ability to spend and use their money, yes they are paying more taxes but then again the tax level should have never been changed in the first place. Never in history has a government lowered taxes in a time of war, not only has the financial burden of the Iraq war put your country into 10-Trillion Dollars worth of debt it has also forced the government to allocate money from social programs. Money used by low income families and middle class families has been pumped into America's war, causing the burden on the backs of those who make the least. Not only are poor people paying for this war, they're also receiving less help because of it.

At the same time, wealthy people who make immaculate amounts of money were receiving Billions of dollars in tax cuts. The real people suffering right now are low income and middle class families, who are still shelling out massive amounts of money and receiving no help from the federal government.

[kthx]

So they should get better jobs, and leave their shitty jobs to the young kids.

[Izor]

25% is 25%, plain and simple. You're assuming that person on a 250000$ salary is living a 25000$ life. They're not. Like I said dont hate them for having a job that gets them that money. It goes against the principle of being american to punish them for doing well for themselves

[Epinephrine]

We will never see eye to eye on this. If I have 249,000 there is no motivation for me to work harder to get 250k seeing as how ill be poorer than I was with 250,000 after taxes.

Have you ever paid taxes before? Don't you know what a tax bracket is? Your statement is pretty stupid in light of reality.

[Epinephrine]

There is a reason why America has some of the best doctors in the world, because the better doctors get paid better. And nobody and I mean nobody ever gets turned down at an ER, they are forced to treat anyone and everything, if payment isn't made they don't throw you in jail they just harass you. I don't understand how most countries have such terrible ideas about the US health care system, Medical bills can NEVER go against your credit rating so if you owe X hospital 5000000 dollars for surgery it doesn't even matter. Leave the health care system alone, I disagree with both candidates on this matter, but Obama more than McCain.

Funny, I've worked with many doctors who have worked in the US who had to do just that... turn people away because they had no insurance and the hospital refused to treat them.

[Zerzera]

Government is absolutely TERRIBLE at spending money wisely, and I can explain why in a very simple way. The program I work for gets X dollars annually. We spend some of it in TDY's, upgrades, work related stuff, etc, but if we dont spend it by the end of the fiscal year they'll lower our budget because obviously we dont need that much. Clearly this leads to very much end-of-year spending that may or may not be necessary.

Yes, like you said, the main problem here is that people can't see the bigger plan. But this really isn't limited to the government. The current crisis shows that. Government didn't properly regulate economical innovations which was exploited by the companies and the people.

In the cooperate world, many valuable projects fail. Over 60% of all cooperate projects. You don't hear anything about internal projects in a cooperation. But they do cost a lot of money, just like governmental mismanagement. And that money can only come from the consumer (or investors). Not to mention monopolies and cartels and their price-agreements, frauds and theft.

Now the the governments do take on a lot of projects, and at least in the Netherlands they do a pretty average job.

[Galleleo]

From what I have seen from the Debates and read on both candidates, I would rather sit around the table and talk with a calm, rational, obviously intelligent person like Obama, than with someone like McCain.

[kthx]

Funny, I've worked with many doctors who have worked in the US who had to do just that... turn people away because they had no insurance and the hospital refused to treat them.

You are full of it, ER's are legally obligated to treat you, now someone who poor might not be able to call a doctor up and schedule an appointment but they can still go to the ER, and even get a free prescription through the ER.