Hamas and Israel

[Zerzera]

He wasn't justified, he decided to address the american population in a negative way just because Exalt was poorly addressing the people in Gaza

'poorly addressing', sure. You can't condemn what he said but then try to tell me what I should or should not do.

1 or two people could have just commented on how they thought Exalt's an idiot or he should open his eyes more or whatever. But no, Big bad Zerzy has to go on with this drivel-

That's exactly what you are guilty off. Not speaking up. You enabled Bush, and so you are as guilty as him. Especially since your country is a democracy. Of course if you give someone power he can abuse it, but instead of looking away, you could speak up.
And instead of saying you want nothing to do with what Exalt says, you attack me. What I said was a personal attack on Exalt and people that share his ways. You took it as an attack on everyone. But if you feel that you did everything necessary to be against the war, why feel offended?
I will always speak up my opinion on this matter, and maybe you should start doing the same, instead of supporting the people with the mindset of; when the shit hits the fan, it wasn't me.
I think the more people who fire at posts like Exalts, the better. One or two isn't as clear as 3 or more.

Can you get off of your soap box already? One page ago you were asking in the thread why we have to keep talking about America and then you go off on some rant to the population about how ignorant, self-obsessed and weak we are.

And I was truly hoping that we could leave it at that.
But no, it wasn't directed at the entire population. That is a generalization you made. It was directed at the people who were cheering or didn't speak up when the army was building up, and now say that they didn't know and Bush is to blame. Take some responsibility of your actions -or the lack thereof-, because you live in the freest country in the world. Don't you see what a distorted message that war and its aftermath sent out to the world?
Okay, I might be harsh and unfair, but I didn't get on a soap box, I was commenting on a person you should have condemned before any of us.
But again you don't speak up, and now you are quick on denouncing someone who has the guts to do speak up.

Keep your bitching about the American population and the mistakes you think we've made to a minimum and we'll be good.

I didn't bring up America, but I will respond to it anytime. If you hadn't posted, I would have left it at one post and all would have been fine. But you had to attack me. Now if you respond, I will respond again. Or you could look away like you do best, and I will go back to topic.

[Zerzera]

Europeans should have no right to talk about the Jews anyway, considering what they allowed to happen to them during the 1930-1945 era. Remember the holocaust? That's the whole reason Isreal became a new nation anyway. If you fools didn't allow Hitler to do what he did in Germany there would never have been this problem.

You finally get it. Although I don't know if it's okay to bring up the Second World War, because it might have been discussed on these forums again.
About every country in Europe, by now, acknowledged the many mistakes made prior to and during that war.

[Nycle]

Europeans should have no right to talk about the Jews anyway, considering what they allowed to happen to them during the 1930-1945 era. Remember the holocaust? That's the whole reason Isreal became a new nation anyway. If you fools didn't allow Hitler to do what he did in Germany there would never have been this problem.

I can't even begin to tell how many things are wrong with that statement so I'll just put it this way:

You can't blame us for mistakes that were made in Europe at a time when we weren't even born yet. What matters is the position you take today, and that gives us all the right to talk about whatever we want. Pre-war Europe is not the Europe it is today, you don't seem to take that into account.

[FarScape]

I can't even begin to tell how many things are wrong with that statement so I'll just put it this way:

You can't blame us for mistakes that were made in Europe at a time when we weren't even born yet. What matters is the position you take today, and that gives us all the right to talk about whatever we want. Pre-war Europe is not the Europe it is today, you don't seem to take that into account.

And I assume you say that because Europe called back all their forces from Iraq and Afghanistan?

[Nycle]

In few years, someone will say the same thing, but he will probably live in Eurabia :-P

The Eurabia theory is ridiculous and I'm glad that article contains a passage from the Economist that I totally agree with; it's nothing more than unfounded scaremongering.

I really don't mean to play ad hominem but I'm not really surprised to see this coming from you

By the way, if we're gonna do predictions I might as well argue the opposite: Once the oil in the Middle-East runs out or becomes obsolete and turn a lot of Arabian countries into economic jokes, they will be looking to their closest neighbour Europe as an example of succesful economic integration and increased prosperity which were brought about on the basis of post-war European/Western values.

[FarScape]

The Eurabia theory is ridiculous and I'm glad that article contains a passage from the Economist that I totally agree with; it's nothing more than unfounded scaremongering.

I really don't mean to play ad hominem but I'm not really surprised to see this coming from you

Well I actually removed it. even if it will happen, it wont be in my life time and probably the Muslims in Europe will go non-religious before all Europe will be under the Sharia law (but you know, nobody can predict the future).

Never the less, Terrorist groups and Islamic radical voices do raise in Europe, and it something even YOU can not ignore nor deny. What I tried to said by that link was that the pluralism you believe in, might actually serve other purposes, and giving a base for the opposite ideas that you believe in. So even a liberal and democrat with an open mind pluralism and love for humanity, need to defend his values against those who jeopardize them. Wont you do everything to protect it? will you risk your own values in order to do so?

By the way, if we're gonna do predictions I might as well argue the opposite: Once the oil in the Middle-East runs out or becomes obsolete and turn a lot of Arabian countries into economic jokes, they will be looking to their closest neighbour Europe as an example of succesful economic integration and increased prosperity which were brought about on the basis of post-war European/Western values.

You can already see Dubai.
But its a matter of education and changing their values, and not economy.
Iran could prosper if they didn't had fanatic government.

P.s

It's a bit odd that someone who talk about European/Western values, actually defend those who are against it (and attack those who are based on it, tho I might have a clue of why you do so).

[R1pp3r]

P.s

It's a bit odd that someone who talk about European/Western values, actually defend those who are against it (and attack those who are based on it, tho I might have a clue of why you do so).

I don't think it's odd at all. Maybe that someone believes in democracy and diplomacy instead of violence and hatemonger.

[Kolar]

You can already see Dubai.
But its a matter of education and changing their values, and not economy.
Iran could prosper if they didn't had fanatic government.

Sorry Farscape but once the oil is gone you and your Muslim friends can go at it and the rest of us will be tuning out.

[Zerzera]

But its a matter of education and changing their values, and not economy.

Those two go hand in hand though. You can't expect people to teach their children to be sympathetic and compassionate when they themselves are distrustful, dogmatic and full of hatred towards their neighbors.
It's reasonable that both Israelis and Palestinians have a moral of violence against each other, you sound just the same as them. Don't expect Europeans to agree with that, we prefer to work to peace and stability rather than upholding a sense of supremacy. So if you feel that you need to annihilate the Palestinians in order to survive, do what you want, but don't come and spew propaganda here. And don't expect the Palestinians ever to give up if you don't work to a peaceful solution.

Never the less, Terrorist groups and Islamic radical voices do raise in Europe, and it something even YOU can not ignore nor deny.

Things like this. Why do you even say this? Terrorists have and always will be part of society, and what you claim at least isn't true in the Netherlands. We do have some Islamic radicals, and some of them got arrested for planning terrorist attacks. But that's nothing new, we've had left-wing terrorism in the Eighties. So we have to join in on an ethnic cleansing of your region because of this? You don't strike me with fear, you only sound to me like a pathetic idiot that is filled with hatred and paranoia.

[R1pp3r]

Farscape has been painting a pretty ugly picture of how he as an Israeli feels about the war. Therefore I thought I'd post an article by a somewhat dissident voice from the israeli magazine Haaretz. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054158.html

Will hopefully be a refreshing read.

[Capital Knockers]

No, fuck it, I really can't get into this thread, I'll never shutup. inch:

[Exalt]

I can't even begin to tell how many things are wrong with that statement so I'll just put it this way:

You can't blame us for mistakes that were made in Europe at a time when we weren't even born yet. What matters is the position you take today, and that gives us all the right to talk about whatever we want. Pre-war Europe is not the Europe it is today, you don't seem to take that into account.

Sure I can. WW2 was only 60 years ago. Thats your grandparents generation right there, and who do you think are running the world governments? Your grandparents' generation and in some cases your parent's generation, not YOUR generation.

Europe has always been about talking but never doing what they say. All of you are condomning Isreal on this forum, but not realizing Isreal has every right to defend themselves as a nation. If your country was fired upon constantly by your neighbor, you wouldn't want to invade them and stop it? You know what the answer to that question is. And for those of you who complain about civilian deaths, well, people die in war. Get over it. No matter how "smart" a bomb's name can sound, it's still a bomb, it has a blast radius, and people can always be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Welcome to the real world.

Sorry Farscape but once the oil is gone you and your Muslim friends can go at it and the rest of us will be tuning out.

this is whats wrong with Europe too... you all say "WE LOVE PEACE AND DEMOCRACY!" and then say "WE DONT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THESE COUNTRIES! DIE ISREAL DIE!

none of you seem to realize the bullshit that is brought onto Isreal's door everyday, and none of you even care... the palastinians could have lived in peace by letting deplomacy work and keeping with the peace treaty, but they did not, and firing even a single bullet over into Isreal was a STUPID move on their part

the problem with terrorist groups are that they do not think about the consequences of their actions, lets look at 9/11 for instance... Al Queda sure as hell didn't think USA would come after them as they did or they wouldn't have done it, they screwed up in that aspect, terrorist groups are not as organized as everyone 'thinks' they are, they are a bunch of hoodlum thugs that use politics and religion as their reasoning for doing criminal acts

if the Palastinians were actually smart, they would look at HISTORY and realize violence NEVER solves anything in a diplomatic standpoint... they should take notes from Ghandi or from Martin Luther King etc etc if they want to get anywhere in this whole process

And to the rest of you USA/Isreal hating European countries, why don't you try having a 9/11 type attack on your country, and tell me you still LOVE terrorists. Better yet, go fly to the Gaza strip and tell Hamas how much you love them. Either you will get your throat slit or you will get some bombs duct taped to your body. I'm sure you will be rooting against Isreal then.

[Nycle]

Sure I can. WW2 was only 60 years ago. Thats your grandparents generation right there, and who do you think are running the world governments? Your grandparents' generation and in some cases your parent's generation, not YOUR generation.

Jesus Christ, you just based your entire argument on a false fact. Name ANY world leader that was born before WW2. And why are you even involving world governments at all? This is about me and other people defending their right to say whatever they want, and that history cannot be applied to us in order to negate this right.

Europe has always been about talking but never doing what they say. All of you are condomning Isreal on this forum, but not realizing Isreal has every right to defend themselves as a nation. If your country was fired upon constantly by your neighbor, you wouldn't want to invade them and stop it? You know what the answer to that question is. And for those of you who complain about civilian deaths, well, people die in war. Get over it. No matter how "smart" a bomb's name can sound, it's still a bomb, it has a blast radius, and people can always be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Welcome to the real world.

What exactly is Europe saying while at the same time not doing it?

this is whats wrong with Europe too... you all say "WE LOVE PEACE AND DEMOCRACY!" and then say "WE DONT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THESE COUNTRIES! DIE ISREAL DIE!

Wait... what? Just one example, last time I checked (and I can only speak on behalf of my own country) my government has long been allowing Israel to use our national airport as a hub for American weapon transports to Israel. I dare to say that they even covered up the details surrounding an airplane crash for them in order to conceal the weapons that it carried. We've never even had a conflict with Israel and have always maintained friendly relations, why are you saying we hate them? I think you're just throwing in random crap.

none of you seem to realize the bullshit that is brought onto Isreal's door everyday, and none of you even care... the palastinians could have lived in peace by letting deplomacy work and keeping with the peace treaty, but they did not, and firing even a single bullet over into Isreal was a STUPID move on their part

Let me answer that with a 2nd reply to this quote:

If your country was fired upon constantly by your neighbor, you wouldn't want to invade them and stop it? You know what the answer to that question is.

If your nation was forced from their historical living grounds by your neighbor, would you just come to accept that and 'move on'? You know what the answer to that question is. And I'm not even talking about the more recent developments such as the Israeli imposed isolation on the Gaza strip.

if the Palastinians were actually smart, they would look at HISTORY and realize violence NEVER solves anything in a diplomatic standpoint... they should take notes from Ghandi or from Martin Luther King etc etc if they want to get anywhere in this whole process

Yet you seem to condone Israel's disproportionate attack. Estimated death tolls from yesterday's evening news:

Gaza strip: 900 (30% are children)
Israel: 15

And to the rest of you USA/Isreal hating European countries, why don't you try having a 9/11 type attack on your country, and tell me you still LOVE terrorists. Better yet, go fly to the Gaza strip and tell Hamas how much you love them. Either you will get your throat slit or you will get some bombs duct taped to your body. I'm sure you will be rooting against Isreal then.

By the looks of how you're write things down I just think you're being dramatic and irrational. No one in this entire thread has condoned the violent actions of Hamas and yet you seem to make it look like that's exactly what we're all doing. Most of the supposedly 'Anti-Israel' people in this thread care for the needless Palestinian casualties so far.

[Kolar]

this is whats wrong with Europe too... you all say "WE LOVE PEACE AND DEMOCRACY!" and then say "WE DONT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THESE COUNTRIES! DIE ISREAL DIE!

Actually Exalt I do care about peace but I don't care for "rooting" for only the Palestinians or only the Israelis. I don't like that the conflict is more important then Sudan, Somalia or even Afghanistan when many more people are dying in those countries, but the reality is that international politics, natural resources and to some extent superstition makes the Palestinian-Israeli conflict more news-worthy, more worthy of our time and resources then a village being wiped out in Darfur or Kandahar.

Al Qaeda has succeeded in what they set out to do, cripple the US military and do damage to her economy. There have been more terrorist attacks since 2001 then in the last 20 years. The War on Terror and the ability to tie Iraq into it was a failure and those Europeon countries, your best allies in this world want nothing to do with you because of Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, extraordinary rendition, lacking habeas corpus for detainees, plain-old torture and illegal domestic spying. And I sure as hell don't blame them. If you think the United States and her allies are safer today then in September 2001 then you're a complete idiot.


Why do people think in such binary terms these days? Just because someone criticizes Israel on its conduct does not automatically make then a rank and file terrorist or sympathetic to the cause of Hamas. And conversely just because someone might find Hamas' actions deplorable does not mean their opinion suddenly becomes entirely in the opposing camp. I'm actually sick of having to criticize both in the same sentence just to get by on this forum.


Edit: And you know I don't take any kind of pleasure in listing the failures Bush Co. has given the world because I happen to live in close proximity to the United States, I count many Americans as friends and know that your safety means our safety, so before you accuse me of being a terrorist or even someone who would sympathize with any ideology that calls for the suffering and murder of innocent people, think that over.

[R1pp3r]

And for those of you who complain about civilian deaths, well, people die in war. Get over it. No matter how "smart" a bomb's name can sound, it's still a bomb, it has a blast radius, and people can always be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Welcome to the real world.

You may not know that:

The people of Gaza practically have nowhere to flee.
They live under inhumane conditions.
Smart bombs? You forgot to mention the clusterbombs and the calculated attacks on schools, ambulances and whatnot.
Israel has been killing around 30 innocent children for every dead Israeli soldier.

If you do get that then how can you possibly support that and even tell people to get over it? Israel is showing far more brutality than Hamas regardless of how many times you call them terrorists or play the victim.