Muslim Demographics

[Money]

ohnoes we dont need more ginders!

but azreal weak and tanzu are the coolest ginders in tw!

[Galaxy Turbo]

Yes but for most faiths it is not a promoted attribute.

The word promotion assumes encouragement, and if you read about it, it isn't encouraged. It's a very simple concept, and it's used in defensive contexts as I said.

So you are saying the muslim community have no ability to decipher the quran and just blindly follow their leaders, however extremist their views may be?.. Oh that makes me feel alot better...

No, muslims are not this ignorant, they do have their own opinions too. They don't following the extremist views to every possible detail without having their own ideas about it.

The only reason that they couldnt do as much as they would like to is if the general consensus of the muslim community agreed with the Imam's statements.

You should be more open minded about this, are these people always in a position to overthrow such extremist leaders? Are they always given the freedom to speak as they wish? Do they have enough power to remove such leaders if they feel their views are extremist?

That is a contradiction considering Islamic law which allows honour killings, rape, etc, is extremist in itself.

Find me any verse in the Qu'ran that does exactly what you're saying it does now, in any non-defensive context (In fact, I challenge you to find anything that allows rape in any context).

I think it is hard to determine. People do very strange things under the right circumstances. especially when religion is involved.

People who you consider the most understanding and peaceful of muslims could easily become fanatical extremists. This goes for anybody, not just muslims. However, due to the possible violent interpretation of the quran, along with the current political situations, muslims could be more susceptible to such extremism.

You have to work with what you have now, though the possibility of people doing strange things under the right circumstances is open, you have to talk about what's going on now, not what could happen.

The rest of what you've said here is pretty much what I've been trying to tell you the whole time, possible violent interpretations of the Qu'ran along with current political situations make muslims more susceptible to extremism.

Pakistan is an islamic nation. 96% of it's population are muslim. What's more Pakistan has the 7th largest military force in the world.
If the "extremists" were not supported by the majority of the Pakistani population, along with the government, they could be easily removed.
Instead the government is conceding regions to this group and paving the way for them to take control of the entire country.
I guess like the muslim communities who fail to act on extremist speeches by certain Imams, the muslims in Pakistan are failing to act on them taking over their country...
Complacency or acceptance?

Neither. They aren't content with what's going on, and I don't believe they have accepted it either, or else Pakistan would be a very different place right now if the people accepted its actions. I think gran guerrero gave you an interesting link also.

[gran guerrero]

Look Iran is an Islamic Republic (I can talk about this cause I'm Iranian and my family goes to the country frequently).

It's really no different than America when Bush was in Power

Ahkmaginejad (it's an iranian play on words with his name, Ahkmag means stupid)

Conservative leader with religious views that clutter up the political atmosphere

There are ppl in the country who like him, and a large majority of ppl who dont (in and out of the country).

The islamic regime isn't as powerful as it was post-revolution

(hell with a flip of the coin it could of have been a communist nation as there were two parties fighting to overthrow the shah, the religious mullah khomeini and the communists)

(Hell even if the USA CIA and England's MI6 didn't kill off Mossadegh, the nation would have been democratic with a free trade (but nope, had to go and fuck things up did they)

The women barely wear their head dresses (only the crazy religious ones and they are dwindling mind you)

The young generation has overcome the older generation and they dont take the old shit anymore (back then you could be beaten or thrown into jail without question) but nowadays, there are more protests and counter cultures (emo, goth, punk, western style and all that shit) that continue to grow.

The nation has trade with Russia (for military and energy uses) and with China (goods and whatnot) so its not like the economic embargo set up by the US was harming the nation. Everyone's got 3g wireless sidekicks/iphones and HD tvs and whatever else that ppl have.

not everyone accepts islam, jews live in the country (contrary to everyone's belief that they want to kill off the jews), and homosexuals (they just dont believe they exist teehee)

Just cause it's an Islamic Republic doesn't necessarily make it very islamic.

[Squeezer]

squeez I posted that already and he responded to it

Yeah I just read the whole thread. There's no getting through to this retard.

On a side note: How's my favorite muslim prophet today?

[TagMor]

The word promotion assumes encouragement, and if you read about it, it isn't encouraged. It's a very simple concept, and it's used in defensive contexts as I said.

Oh ok, well you wont find anything advocating lying and being deceitful in most other religions. Whether in a "defensive context" or not.

No, muslims are not this ignorant, they do have their own opinions too. They don't following the extremist views to every possible detail without having their own ideas about it.
You should be more open minded about this, are these people always in a position to overthrow such extremist leaders? Are they always given the freedom to speak as they wish? Do they have enough power to remove such leaders if they feel their views are extremist?

Again: These leaders are in western countries where they have no political or militaristic influence.
If the muslim community did have its own opinions and they conflicted with that of the leader, all they would have to do is find another mosque and stop associating with him. Instead they stand side by side and defend such hostile statements.
Your perspective in this matter is quite frightening in itself. Why do you continually try to argue that these muslim leaders, who are preaching in western countries, are somehow above the criticism of their followers?

Find me any verse in the Qu'ran that does exactly what you're saying it does now, in any non-defensive context (In fact, I challenge you to find anything that allows rape in any context).

Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like - Sura 2:223

If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them, then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. - Sura 4:34

Here is one that advocates pedophilia:

when you divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden. - Sura 65:1,4

Before you argue that these are taken out of context: Let me point out that in most Islamic nations women are treated as second-class citizens who are likely to be charged with adultery, and/or executed, if they make allegations of rape.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/ja...paki-j24.shtml
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapc...law/index.html
And in some Islamic countries they will hang the victim for "bringing shame to their family", even if she is a child:
http://www.crin.org/violence/search/...p?infoID=15034

The rest of what you've said here is pretty much what I've been trying to tell you the whole time, possible violent interpretations of the Qu'ran along with current political situations make muslims more susceptible to extremism.

Ok, so we can agree that muslims are more likely to adopt extremist views, and be hostile towards alternative cultures?

Neither. They aren't content with what's going on, and I don't believe they have accepted it either, or else Pakistan would be a very different place right now if the people accepted its actions.

Despite global criticism, Pakistan continues to use Sharia courts in dealing with rape cases and more often than not it is the woman who is condemned.
These laws are accepted by the Pakistani government and the people who are predominantly muslim.

The young generation has overcome the older generation and they dont take the old shit anymore (back then you could be beaten or thrown into jail without question)

wtf are you talking about?
http://www.crin.org/violence/search/...p?infoID=15034
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8044939.stm
http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/10-26g-04.asp

not everyone accepts islam, jews live in the country (contrary to everyone's belief that they want to kill off the jews)

Iranian officials recently arrested 40 Baha'i leaders. (Baha'i being the largest minority religion in Iran.)
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/22/iran.bahais/

Just cause it's an Islamic Republic doesn't necessarily make it very islamic.

THANKYOU. You exemplified my point perfectly.
Islam is fundamentally violent and extremist. When allowed complete freedom to be practised, it creates human rights disasters, such as in pretty much all Islamic nations.
I dont doubt that alot of muslims who assimilate into other cultures have the ability to determine what are acceptable parts of Islam and what are not, but they are merely practising a compromised version of their faith.
To use your words "Just cause they are an Islamic doesn't necessarily make them very islamic".
Those that do practise Islam in an uncompromised fashion are quite aggressive to western ideals. Which would explain why many Imams make these controversial statements...

Yeah I just read the whole thread. There's no getting through to this retard.

Oh really? Please enlighten me on which particular argument isnt "getting through"?
And since you read the whole thread, maybe you should read this again:
How about you try using independent thought to argue my points instead of resorting to naive attacks on my character?

[Noah]

ITT: Walls of text.

[Galaxy Turbo]

Oh ok, well you wont find anything advocating lying and being deceitful in most other religions. Whether in a "defensive context" or not.

Is this trying to prove something? It's like saying "My dad could beat up your dad", so not sure what you're trying to say by that.

Again: These leaders are in western countries where they have no political or militaristic influence.
If the muslim community did have its own opinions and they conflicted with that of the leader, all they would have to do is find another mosque and stop associating with him. Instead they stand side by side and defend such hostile statements.

Some of these Imams are part of these extremist groups and we know it. They have militaristic influence if they require it. You're simplifying the situation and it's simply not that easy, as the current situation is another variable you have to consider. Some can and will of course switch mosques, but it could be that they are still praying salah in a mosque with these imams.

Your perspective in this matter is quite frightening in itself. Why do you continually try to argue that these muslim leaders, who are preaching in western countries, are somehow above the criticism of their followers?

Not once have I actually said this, and even if I suggested it within this argument, it's because I'm giving you more variables to which I expect you to respond with more open-mindedness.

Now for the quotes you made.

Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like - Sura 2:223

Wed not idolatresses till they believe; for lo! a believing bondwoman is better than an idolatress though she please you; and give not your daughters in marriage to idolaters till they believe, for lo! a believing slave is better than an idolater though he please you. These invite unto the Fire, and Allah inviteth unto the Garden, and unto forgiveness by His grace, and expoundeth His revelations to mankind that haply they may remember. (221) They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. Truly Allah loveth those who turn unto Him, and loveth those who have a care for cleanness. (222)

Once you put verse 222 back into context, from the one you completely removed it out of, it's speaking about menstruation. Here I've included verse 221 just before it. Not even your quote is accurate so I don't know where you got it from.

Here is one that advocates pedophilia:

when you divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden. - Sura 65:1,4

This doesn't advocate paedophilia. Islam was established a long time ago, and this was written to cater for all possible situations of that time. Much like when Victorians in their time were able to marry etc. at young ages. Women who were not married by 18 or 19 were considered to be "old maids". My point is, marriage ages fluctuated with times and were down to social acceptance. It doesn't clearly advocate paedophilia at all. There are social standards and laws in place now that would disallow paedophilia, and there are millions more who follow these standards and wouldn't commit such crimes.

Before you argue that these are taken out of context: Let me point out that in most Islamic nations women are treated as second-class citizens who are likely to be charged with adultery, and/or executed, if they make allegations of rape.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/ja...paki-j24.shtml
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapc...law/index.html
And in some Islamic countries they will hang the victim for "bringing shame to their family", even if she is a child:
http://www.crin.org/violence/search/...p?infoID=15034

I'll get back to this once I'm back from university, too many links and stuff to read.

Ok, so we can agree that muslims are more likely to adopt extremist views, and be hostile towards alternative cultures?

Yes, but only because they're being exposed to such negative media attention, extremist broadcasts etc.

Despite global criticism, Pakistan continues to use Sharia courts in dealing with rape cases and more often than not it is the woman who is condemned.
These laws are accepted by the Pakistani government and the people who are predominantly muslim.

Will also get back to this once I read more on their system.

[gran guerrero]

Yes tagmor, shit still does exist, I didn't say it's gone, I said it's losing its strength.

People over are much larger in numbers, the people who are victimized are usually singled out because they have no one to support them, or got the short end of the straw.

Bahai is iran's equivolent to mormons in USA (not religious perspective-wise, moreso how the rest of the nation treats them, the only difference is the USA can't outright arrest em for it)

There are other religious minorities there as well such as sufism, and zoroastrianism, but they aren't persecuted like the Bahai <-because they aren't socially accepted for what they do.


You know not all women are treated like shit as you like to think

The ones who usually are treated like that are the byproduct of being in a poor, conservative religious family that couldn't wed her to someone (they are the douchebags, yes this is true)

But people of middle class and up treat their daughters better than theyre sons. They get all the riches they want (treated like princesses) they are protected like treasure for they do not want the world to harm them from idiotic religious assholes and whatever. you saw what they did to the rape victim, of course they dont want them hanging out in the streets for men to take. They take marriage seriously, so they dont like people just dating unless they are seriously considering to get married (but like I said before, the trend is changing because of the youth) but because of which they have less aids/stds than the major countries who are more open to sex with different partners.

some of your quotes from quran can be translated on a different end of the spectrum, you really are just giving one perspective of what someone would see from that.

also like galaxy said, you aren't giving full quotes, just parts you want to see. Heck that sounds like a lot of christian radicals here who do the same thing when they want to justify killing homosexuals and abortion doctors.

[genocidal]

I'm not exactly sure why I thought I would get into a discussion with TagMor about Islam. I was wrong.

[PH]

enough is enough

[PUNK rock]

[PH]

[PUNK rock]

[PH]

[PUNK rock]