Muslim Demographics

[Leaf]

Yet they are still granted their positions and regarded as leaders by the Muslim community.. If muslims truly thought such messages were against their faith they would remove them as leaders.


The point is: It would be a similiar situation if after such incidences the Pope came out and said it was the children's fault for being raped.

Why does it have to be an exact similiarity?

You have to be able to see they're both very weird (fucked up if you will).

Didn't the pope state something like condoms is the 'cause of a lot of AIDS in Africa or did he just say condoms doesn't help AIDS? Which one was it?

By the way. Why is the pope the leader of christianity? Show me in the old or new testament where there is something about popes at all.

[Galaxy Turbo]

People have many different concepts of what is "defensive". Muslims see Islam as the one true religion and other religions as the enemy. So In a western nation where Islam is not the dominant religion, it could be easily percieved as a defensive act to rectify this, and to be hostile towards people of other faiths.
In that passage it also reads " but if they attack you then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers." and "fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

It can be agreed that "defensive" is a subjective term, but generally speaking it has one meaning and we all know what that is. I already established that Islam doesn't see Christianity or Judaism as enemies because they are all religions by the same God. It would be illogical for muslims to attack past religions of the very same god they praise today.

Your bolded quotations, "Such is the reward of disbelievers", it refers to disbelievers of that nature, the ones who attack first. It is basically telling muslims they can defend themselves if they were attacked both inside and outside of the Mosque. Let me give you a translation:

2:191 "Kill them wherever they confront you in combat and drive them out of the places from which they have driven you. Though killing is bad, creating mischief is worse than killing. Do not fight them within the precincts of the Al-Masjid-al-Haram unless they attack you there; but if they attack you, put them to the sword that is the punishment for such unbelievers."

The bold part is a more accurate translation, for "such" unbelievers.

2:192 "If they cease hostility, then surly, Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

2:190 "Fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight against you, but do not exceed the limits. Allah does not like transgressors."

These are more or less telling you that it is defensive, since we know the term "defensive" is subjective, then I've just given you more direction here.

I'm also going to take another one of your quotes here...

Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

This particular verse was revealed in 2 A.H.; when the Battle of Badr was taking place. This "aya" you have quoted references the battling the Meccans. I'm putting this forward because I'm saying again, when you take these quotations you make very dangerous assumptions without actually getting the full picture, which is why I encouraged you to read a genuine Qu'ran text.

Just because they are labelled as leaders of the entire faith, it doesn't make them any less susceptible to misinterpretations in the Qu'ran than any other regular person, you have to see this at every possible angle. Once they interpret something, they will have the ability to speak their minds about it on a larger scale, making others susceptible to such misled thoughts. Speak to enough muslims and you will find that they are absolutist against rape, murder, and more.

You have to realise that when Islam was beginning, many opposed it and there was a lot of conflict against new-found muslims of that time, this is why it mentions the defensive elements in the Qu'ran, but Islam doesn't advocate violence whatsoever, as much as many would like to think it does due to extremism.

[TagMor]

Just because they are labelled as leaders of the entire faith, it doesn't make them any less susceptible to misinterpretations in the Qu'ran than any other regular person

Seems like a rather extreme misinterpretation to call western women "uncovered pieces of meat".
These are experts of the Quran who devote their lives to studying it. To make such statements in public, and on the behalf of Islam, they must have had some degree of influence from the Islamic texts.
Making such provocative statements does nothing but incite religious segregation and suggest Islam views the West, and alternative religions, as their enemy whom they want conflict.
The fact that these muslim leaders keep their positions after making these accusations suggests the muslim community is atleast benign to such views.
I can guarantee if a mainstream Christian leader publicly stated that muslim women deserve to be raped and beaten, he would be quickly removed of his position and rebuked by the Christian community.

In this thread people have mentioned the atrocities commited by people who claimed to be Christian. If human nature can create such horrendous acts under the guise of a religion that completely condemns anykind of violent action, imagine the atrocities that can come from one that praises such actions under certain circumstances.

Speak to enough muslims and you will find that they are absolutist against rape, murder, and more.

I'm sure this is the case, atleast for muslims in western society.
Most muslims probably ignore the darker elements of their faith, and value the good, which is fine and I commend them. But this is likely due to living in a western society where our laws and social values deny such acts of rape and murder.
Muslim attitudes in Islamic nations are quite different, as the rape and murder statistics show. The laws in such countries are based on the Islamic faith and people are permitted to act in such horrific ways.
The vulgar attitude of Islamic society portrays the Muslim ideals in its uninhibited form.
The muslims who dont compromise their faith by living in a western society are bound by Allah to turn their western home into an Islamic state.
In the Quran there are only two kinds of nations:
Dar'al Islam - the nations which are Islamic
Dar'al Harb - the nations where infidels have not yet been subjugated to Islam.
It is a fundemental goal of Islam to conquer the non-Islamic nations.

You have to realise that when Islam was beginning, many opposed it and there was a lot of conflict against new-found muslims

No more so than Christianity.

[PaulOakenfold]

What do you call your shit? I call mine food babies...

[kthx]

Just like leaders of C(fixed)hristianity indulge themselves in having sex with underage children, often boys, what is your point? Just because other christian leaders doesn't condone it afterward doesn't make it good.

Comparing it just makes it look stupid aswell.

So by this logic school and education is also a bad thing because a minority of teachers end up having sex with their students.

Some pretty ignorant arguments, Tagmor pretty much destroys people when it comes to religions so.

[Galaxy Turbo]

Seems like a rather extreme misinterpretation to call western women "uncovered pieces of meat".

It's not that it was an extreme misinterpretation, it was a small interpretation blown out of proportion. There's a large difference there. The covering of women in Islam is a different argument, if you want to talk about it maybe another time, but we'll stick to this debate for now.

These are experts of the Quran who devote their lives to studying it. To make such statements in public, and on the behalf of Islam, they must have had some degree of influence from the Islamic texts.
Making such provocative statements does nothing but incite religious segregation and suggest Islam views the West, and alternative religions, as their enemy whom they want conflict.

Muslims aren't looking for conflict, they have enough of this already. I can't possibly speak for the Muslims who currently live in the Middle East, but I can imagine that they feel victimised due to the "war on terror" and they are under attack. Imams (particularly those with greater power) may feel under attack by the west and feel the need to justify attacking the values of western culture. This is where the extremist motives are brewed, but that doesn't make it right, and that doesn't mean Islam on a whole is a violent religion, nor does it advocate it. Unfortunately Islam has had bad luck in this front, and this is what is being predominantly captured in the media.

The fact that these muslim leaders keep their positions after making these accusations suggests the muslim community is atleast benign to such views.
I can guarantee if a mainstream Christian leader publicly stated that muslim women deserve to be raped and beaten, he would be quickly removed of his position and rebuked by the Christian community.

Now this I'd have to disagree with. Do you really feel that the muslims in the middle east have the power to overthrow such imams and higher authorities? With extremist groups taking over, there is lots of oppression and not much the people can do about it without third-party intervention, though this then has even more influence. It's really a vicious circle.

In this thread people have mentioned the atrocities commited by people who claimed to be Christian. If human nature can create such horrendous acts under the guise of a religion that completely condemns anykind of violent action, imagine the atrocities that can come from one that praises such actions under certain circumstances.

Good point, but this is your view on religion as a whole (from what I can read) and this is a whole new debate, which we won't get into now.

Muslim attitudes in Islamic nations are quite different, as the rape and murder statistics show. The laws in such countries are based on the Islamic faith and people are permitted to act in such horrific ways.
The vulgar attitude of Islamic society portrays the Muslim ideals in its uninhibited form.
The muslims who dont compromise their faith by living in a western society are bound by Allah to turn their western home into an Islamic state.
In the Quran there are only two kinds of nations:
Dar'al Islam - the nations which are Islamic
Dar'al Harb - the nations where infidels have not yet been subjugated to Islam.
It is a fundemental goal of Islam to conquer the non-Islamic nations.

If rape and murder statistics in the Middle East are high, you can't conclude that rape and murder is condoned there. It isn't because the people approve of it, this is just what's happening now as a result of a system currently in place.
Muslims are given the duty of spreading Islam by peaceful means, and it is no different to the spreading of "the good news" in the Bible. It shouldn't be seen as "conquering" because the goal isn't to claim a state, but muslims will see this as a goal once they believe they will achieve this.

[gran guerrero]

you know what I'm glad I'm ignorant on this subject

cause it takes a religious fanatic to argue with a religious fanatic

and Religion is quite frankly stupid

If you got a great life because of it then thats good for you.

But that doesn't make up for all the bloodshed and everything else that came with it. That goes for Islam, Judaism, Christianity and any other pagan religion that preceded it or came after it.

I have nothing against people who believe in God and find some direction in their life, I do have something against everyone of those bastards that used it as a crutch to justify their wrong doing or "forgave" their unforgivable sins because they accepted their religious doctrine.

[Cyrus]

muslims stink

jesus did too

[fLaReD]

tagmor dominating this argument

[Epinephrine]

tagmor dominating this argument

If posting out of context quotes and not having any actual learned Muslims here to debate him counts, I guess he is.

[Vykromond]

If posting out of context quotes and not having any actual learned Muslims here to debate him counts, I guess he is.

they're fucking brown

[Ronn]

you know what I'm glad I'm ignorant on this subject

cause it takes a religious fanatic to argue with a religious fanatic

and Religion is quite frankly stupid

If you got a great life because of it then thats good for you.

But that doesn't make up for all the bloodshed and everything else that came with it. That goes for Islam, Judaism, Christianity and any other pagan religion that preceded it or came after it.

I have nothing against people who believe in God and find some direction in their life, I do have something against everyone of those bastards that used it as a crutch to justify their wrong doing or "forgave" their unforgivable sins because they accepted their religious doctrine.

I think from now on the only contribution you should make concerning religion is silence.

Muslims grooming hundreds of young white girls for sex in Britain

Muslim Rape Epidemic in Sweden and Norway

Not only are muslims replacing the traditonal european population they are raping our women to speed up the process!

Tagmor is right Islam is a violent religion, it seeks to spread through conquest its intolerent of others especially those they have conquered and allows rape and incest.

[Galleleo]

There are some really close minded, ignorant people in here.

[Galaxy Turbo]

If posting out of context quotes and not having any actual learned Muslims here to debate him counts, I guess he is.

Agreed, though you forgot those who also ignore my posts. I think I've been the only one so far giving the solid counter-arguments =D

There are some really close minded, ignorant people in here.

Couldn't agree more, I mean my god.

[Noah]

Ronn you are clueless, don't post anything about my country when you obviously don't know shit about it.

There's a small part of our immigrants that are illegal and have a serious criminal record, and they are the ones that are responsible for a huge number of our crimes. The legal immigrants here in Norway is the ones that are taking the jobs we are too lazy to take, and they are doing this better than we've ever did. I appreciate having them here. The main problem is that by Norwegian law we aren't allowed to expel anyone who comes from areas where they are very likely to get killed, even if they are illegal. We even harboured Mullah Krekar, a known terrorist, for years even though this was a serious security threat to out country because he would be killed if got sent back.

Shut the fuck up.