Muslim Demographics

[Kolar]

I didn't bring up the bible, or terrorism, just the contrast between Western and Muslim population trends. This is, of course, up to debate on whether the numbers are legitimate or useful in anyway, but it certainly is NOT the place of staff to decide to trash my thread and attach a racist title to it because they are bored, arrogant and not funny.

But you are defending one belief system over that of another. It doesn't matter what the doctrine of Christianity is or that of Islam. If we followed either' scripture to the letter today we would still be in the middle ages taking an eye for an eye, killing adulters, amputating thieves and so on. A lot of problems we have today with extremism in the Middle East is caused predominantly by poverty and by Western intervention. 404 also makes a good point that in both the US and Israeli military there are extremist elements who see the ME wars as a new form of crusades.

About cultural integration, from my personal experience the Muslim people I do know see themselves as Canadian. A recent poll said 77% of British Muslims hold loyalty towards England alone in contrast to 50% for the population as a whole, while most hold the opinion that they don't integrate. I don't know one culture who comes here and doesn't assimulate or integrate within 1-2 generations regardless of religion. A lot of them do bring the baggage and petty conflicts but 99% of it is taught from their parents.

I did trash the thread because all I saw were people trying to promote hatred and fear of a particular race and religion when there truly isn't a cause to be. Maybe I did move too quickly to trash it without allowing others the time to discuss it so I am sorry I didn't give it a chance.

[laureth]

Sorry TagMor, but I looked up like, the first four quotations and crossing them with the verses that are stated in the link you showed me, and they are not exact.

You said:

"And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter" - Sura 2:191-193

According to http://www.quranexplorer.com (When I searched)

"And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (191) But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (192) And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers. (193)"

Take note, "fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there". This quote indicates that it is defensive, Jihad is also defensive and your referenced quotation would make it look look like Muslims would be justified in going on the offensive, waging war against the disbelievers in order to spread Islam, which just simply isn't true.

Islam doesn't promote extremism/violence and is in fact one of the most peaceful religions out there, Islam is spread dominantly by peaceful means. Your quotations are slightly different, and by only quoting parts of the text and removing it from its context are you making dangerous assumptions which provoke possible hostility from others. That's just something I'm letting you know now.

I don't deny that Christianity isn't peaceful, this was a religion sent by God, and Islam doesn't attack Jews and Christians, as these are followers of a religion sent down by the same god.

Funnily enough though TagMor, Islamic Extremism is actually spread through quotations such as the ones you referenced, by misinterpretation of the text. I encourage you to find a genuine hard-copy of an English translated copy of the Holy Qu'ran, and understand what it is that makes Islam peaceful. Seeing as you're hopefully not a close-minded person (not from what I know of you anyway), I think it would be interesting for you to take a further look into it in this way.

you know what tagmor i typed up a whole essay for you but this sums it up really well, gj GT

[Galleleo]

Ronn, I don't even know how the hell you reached that conclusion. So I am not going to bother trying to explain why you are so far off what I said.

And Tagmor, stop being a goddamn retard please, Islamic beliefs are not more or less violent than Christian ones. I would say that the only place the Islamic beliefs differ from Christian ones is that they are 'behind' on things like women rights and their standing and stuff. For the rest the Islamic belief has a shit ton of peaceful followers who are not trying to take over shit or convert anyone and it has a bunch of extremists, pretty much the same as Christian belief.

[PaulOakenfold]

back to useless crap. you had the right idea the first time make me a mod.

[kthx]

I can't remember the last time Christianity has waged a holy war on the capitalist infidels which sanctioned suicide bombing in return for a 100 virgins.

[Vatican Assassin]

back to useless crap. you had the right idea the first time make me a mod.

Haha paul you are a funny fuck I'll give you that. I think the main thing is that, kolar I appreciate your apology btw, basically let's just reconsider the whole process of deciding on whether a given thread is worthy of stayin out of useless crap or not. If we really think about it, it's only like a hundred or so of us, might as well not fuck with each other's conversations if we don't have to.

edit: and kolar: I think what Tagmor is talking about is that if we really did follow the Christian belief system to the letter there would be no excuse for violence of any kind, but in Islamic religion there are circumstances where it would be allowed (I'm sry btw, I know these threads are actually useless when we get down to it, I mean debating on whether one religiom is better then another come ooooooon i so did not mean to make this go that way).

Btw, anyone bd anymore? Remember when we did? I think someone needs to reform RB who's coming with me?

[fLaReD]

I'm not really trying to defend anyone here but this is ad hominen, he made the point that the new testament doesn't tell Christians to go out and fight non-believers, you responded by providing some quotes from the new testament, he responded by pointing out that they are in fact not only not violent, but not even directed at non-believers, then you responded by attacking the person instead of the point. Also, I know that sentence is one massive run-on, I've gotta go!

Also, before I get dragged into anything else, I said I'm not agreeing with anyone, just pointing out what it seems like

this is basically my opinion on the subject except for the fact that i do agree with tagmor

[TagMor]

he makes some half-assed interpretation

The interpretations were not really part of my argument. Considering the best you could do was an obscure reference to a sword, and family members at odds with eachother, I felt I didnt really need to make that great of a rebuttal.

And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (191) But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (192) And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

This quote indicates that it is defensive

People have many different concepts of what is "defensive". Muslims see Islam as the one true religion and other religions as the enemy. So In a western nation where Islam is not the dominant religion, it could be easily percieved as a defensive act to rectify this, and to be hostile towards people of other faiths.
In that passage it also reads " but if they attack you then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers." and "fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

In the New Testament you wont find the sanctioning of any violence, defensive or offensive.

Islam doesn't promote extremism/violence and is in fact one of the most peaceful religions out there

Not true. Although largely ignored by the Media, In many western countries there is an epidemic of muslim gangs raping young Christian girls. This behaviour is even condoned by muslim leaders, who publicly state it is the girls fault for being raped.
Read here: http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/...152362381.html
and here: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...37-601,00.html
These were not quoted from Muslim extremists, but from the leaders of the entire faith.

[Kolar]

edit: and kolar: I think what Tagmor is talking about is that if we really did follow the Christian belief system to the letter there would be no excuse for violence of any kind, but in Islamic religion there are circumstances where it would be allowed (I'm sry btw, I know these threads are actually useless when we get down to it, I mean debating on whether one religiom is better then another come ooooooon i so did not mean to make this go that way).

Btw, anyone bd anymore? Remember when we did? I think someone needs to reform RB who's coming with me?

That doesn't make any sense. There is already no excuse to commit violence within reason, the only difference is that our society 2,000 years later doesn't view justice as retribution, punishment as equal to or greater then that of the crime and rehabilitation an afterthought.


What I am saying is you could nitpick the hell out of either scripture to find ideas and messages that would implore you to do something illegal, something stupid, or both. I don't believe that means Muslims and Christians equally would run around tossing a Burqa on random women or censuring and forcing people to believe in what they do. Some do but the majority have a basic respect for the rule of law and fundamental human rights. With any religion there will be extremist and people who will choose a path of violence.

[kthx]

Yeah but... a majority of Islamic women do have to wear the burkas so doesn't that just pretty much tell you what else they are willing to do in order to enforce their religion much more strongly than Christians do theirs? Even if that includes killing infidels and enforcing Islamic beliefs on non believers to server Allah?

[Leaf]

Yeah but... a majority of Islamic women do have to wear the burkas so doesn't that just pretty much tell you what else they are willing to do in order to enforce their religion much more strongly than Christians do theirs? Even if that includes killing infidels and enforcing Islamic beliefs on non believers to server Allah?

Wow, that's a strong argument.

"Islam enforces their religion on people (women) more than Christianity does, they're worse than us"

Both are destructive religions.

[laureth]

Not true. Although largely ignored by the Media, In many western countries there is an epidemic of muslim gangs raping young Christian girls. This behaviour is even condoned by muslim leaders, who publicly state it is the girls fault for being raped.
Read here: http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/...152362381.html
and here: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...37-601,00.html
These were not quoted from Muslim extremists, but from the leaders of the entire faith.

The leaders are some of the worst extremists, they drive wrong messages to people and it's something I should not happen but it does and the true messages of Islam were given out but they aren't and they give out false messages and exploit the text like you are. And also how much of Islam is based on Christianity and you claim of one being peaceful and the other being hostile. Muslims believe in the teachings of Jesus too you know, I know of friends (who are Christians) who have had experiences with hostile Christians so don't be fooled into thinking the way you are at the moment. If you are actually interested in the full argument I would ask you to read Galaxy Turbo's suggestion into reading a translated and legitimate version of the Qur'an and try to do it with an open mind.

[Leaf]

The interpretations were not really part of my argument. Considering the best you could do was an obscure reference to a sword, and family members at odds with eachother, I felt I didnt really need to make that great of a rebuttal.





People have many different concepts of what is "defensive". Muslims see Islam as the one true religion and other religions as the enemy. So In a western nation where Islam is not the dominant religion, it could be easily percieved as a defensive act to rectify this, and to be hostile towards people of other faiths.
In that passage it also reads " but if they attack you then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers." and "fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

In the New Testament you wont find the sanctioning of any violence, defensive or offensive.


Not true. Although largely ignored by the Media, In many western countries there is an epidemic of muslim gangs raping young Christian girls. This behaviour is even condoned by muslim leaders, who publicly state it is the girls fault for being raped.
Read here: http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/...152362381.html
and here: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...37-601,00.html
These were not quoted from Muslim extremists, but from the leaders of the entire faith.

Just like leaders of christianity indulge themselves in having sex with underage children, often boys, what is your point? Just because other christian leaders doesn't condone it afterward doesn't make it good.

Comparing it just makes it look stupid aswell.

[gran guerrero]

religion is

[TagMor]

The leaders are some of the worst extremists, they drive wrong messages to people and it's something I should not happen but it does and the true messages of Islam were given out but they aren't and they give out false messages and exploit the text like you are.

Yet they are still granted their positions and regarded as leaders by the Muslim community.. If muslims truly thought such messages were against their faith they would remove them as leaders.

Just like leaders of christianity indulge themselves in having sex with underage children, often boys, what is your point?

The point is: It would be a similiar situation if after such incidences the Pope came out and said it was the children's fault for being raped.