The best warbird styles

[TopGod]

Let's duel (;

I need another day or two of playing to get rid of some rust. Dodging is back to half-decent, aim still sucks But yeah... whenever you want.

Is getting warbird dueling advice from people who
aren't good in wb useful?

Are you referring to me?

rock bouncing is a huge newbie mistake. On a few occasions it's a valid move, but the vast majority of players use it in situations where it just leads to getting yourself easily killed.

It is both a mistake and an extremely powerful move if you know how to use it right. Going straight into a rock when youre being chased is newbie. The trick is to get as close to the rock as possible without actually hitting it, but in such a way that if you wanted to bounce of it, you could. That would make the person chasing you guess whether youre going to bounce or not... 50/50 as someone mentioned. If the person slows down to get you off the bounce, keep going. If they dont, then bounce away. This small strat works wonders if you pull it off right.

We've dueled TopGod? I didn't know.

Yes we did, I wanted to see if you were as good as everyone said you were.

Honestly though, the only thing you need besides aiming/dodging/rushing/getting kills is prediction. Prediction is what seperates the top from the rest. If you know what your opponent is going to do before they do, you basically can't lose.

Sure, prediction is the only thing that you _need_, but knowing how to manipulate opponents into doing whatever you want seperates the top from the elite

EDIT: And all you "retired" people just got surpassed. You didn't get worse, everyone else got better. That's why you just don't have it anymore.

I beg to differ, our aiming/dodging got worse due to not playing, whereas yours didnt because you still play. If we "retired" people bothered getting our aiming/dodging back to what it was before, we'd whoop your ass because you didnt surpass anyone. Old school beats new school any day of the week. Look at lining vs cram. Even though cram is more effective, does it make the new players who win by cramming automatically better than the ones who won by lining?

I like how the people that write these big long essays on how to WB are sub-par as far as skill goes.

Who are you and why are you here?

[Mattey]

Yes we did, I wanted to see if you were as good as everyone said you were.




Sure, prediction is the only thing that you _need_, but knowing how to manipulate opponents into doing whatever you want seperates the top from the elite

I'm better than people say I am.

And yes, people that cram are better than the squads that used to line. A new strategy was developed (much like they have been in dueling) since the "vets" left, and they got surpassed.

[Blood]

sure, if you can pull the rock bounce just right, it's a 50/50 chance you'll get away. but considering even i have a tough time doing it, you should just avoid that shit as I have so far. anyshow, a lot of this wb dueling stuff depends on how well you know your enemy's style and well you can adapt to it. try to change playing methods the whole time so the enemy can't catch on to your stuff.

[Bob (SRB)]

Sir, I think the reason is that you never see anyone rush you is because you are already rushing them before they can start their rush ANd when people see you, they know you as a rusher so they naturally back off. Nobody really wants to get in a suicidal rushing contest.

I think matteys rush is more psychological. People see mattey boosting around like a crazy idiot and go "OMG HES GONNA RUSH ME!!!" So they shoot at him as fast as they can and he gets his rush. I think if mattey actually teamed in duels and didnt always rush into a crowd of 3 people and lure shots out of them he could do much better. Possibly be one of the best warbirds in the game.

If you guys want to talk dueling strategy, I'd like to hear more about 5v5 warbird dueling. I believe it is even more interesting than 1v1 because the whole team-strategy element. Obviously there are different strategies, but I think it would be generally agreed upon that good teaming is obviously the best. Many squads who have trained together team in different ways. A prime example is shrieks "rush teaming" They generally stay together, but they are CONSTANTLY rushing. Why is this so effective? Because their rushing is always splitting up the other squad. Thats how shriek rapes unorganized squads so hard. But they run into problems when they run into a squad like say syndicate or -f-. If synd or -final- have their best wbs in, then i've seen that they both have more of a defensive aiming style. I think one of the best 5v5 matches possible today would be shrieks top rushers vs syndicates best aimers. In my opinion Syndicate would win if they stay in a tight team and radar well to pick off all shrieks rushers before they could get close enough to get at syndicate.

What would also be interesting would be your guys opinions on the best 5 person line possible. I believe if you get the right 5 people together, they can be literally unbeatable.

[TopGod]

but considering even i have a tough time doing it, you should just avoid that shit as I have so far.

Thats because you're finnish

I'm better than people say I am.

Not by my standards

And yes, people that cram are better than the squads that used to line. A new strategy was developed (much like they have been in dueling) since the "vets" left, and they got surpassed.

Forget it, youre not going to get my point anyway. *sigh*



Bored at work, cant wait to go back home and duel people... wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[sixtoo]

I rely on newb luck
year after year
it has never ceased to amaze me

[Commodore Pickle]

When is Kurai Oni coming back, and why dont you use commodore relish :P

Mmmm... I can sum my response up in two points.
1) I'm not Commodore Relish.
2) Kurai Oni is probably not coming back under Relish's rule, as he's busy in college. Maybe this summer. We'll see.

Oh, and as a completely unrelated point:
3) Whoever said you've surpassed us, we haven't gotten worse... you newbs didn't surpass anything, now stfu k thx.

After the above, the rest is elaboration, feel free to skip it.
I am Commodore Pickle, the original Commodore of Trench Wars. Commodore Relish is my best friend in real life. We've both been playing SubSpace since Beta (early 1996). He picked a name liken to mine. That's the elaboration of point #1.
And as a note on #2... I don't know. It was never my squad, it was his; I can't make any calls on its expected course.

Now, finally, for point #3. I will not deny that as of THIS moment I'm sub-par. See what happens after you quit for more than 4 years. I went on to play TFC, then Counter-Strike. Actually, I came out of retirement a year ago for a week, played elim versus this new generation of "l33ts". After suiciding to 0-5, I decided to shoot back. Long story short, I won the elim 22-8.

Our guns may be rusty, but if we ever decided to clean them, you'd find quickly that you have not, as you so naively put it, surpassed us. We've watched new players, and we've noticed that the style of play has for the most part taken a radical shift. There's some promise, but nothing quite "impressive" yet. Sorry. That's all there is to say on the matter.

And no, if you beat me in a duel right now you will not necessarily earn my admiration. If you show that you would have beat me in a duel 5 years ago, I'll shout your praises from the mountain tops. I'm equal-opportunity like that.

[Sirius]

Don't know for sure why but Blood's rush style is the exact one I took up whenever I got to a 20 ms connection at a friend's house, maybe it was just an inherent thing building up from all the laggy practice; unfortunately I can't do that on my normal [170ms] connection because there is too much lag gap for me to effectively notice my opponent's breaks or movement shifts at such radical range. It's alright though, until I get dsl I have my own little lag compatible rushes to use =P

Sirius is easy, if he is lagging just run around and defend his rush.

Sirius did you move back to NY? - Webbb

Lol Ward, who took you down from TWEL # 1 spots while you were there? You just say that now while you're hiding in your little army reserves =[[[[

No I'm still taking classes down here; let me know when you come back and we'll chill.

By the way Ward, I used rushing a lot more in TWEL Season 1 than I do now, which made me worse then, since rushing at this connection isn't my best 1 v 1 dueling, unless only at key moments.

Sir, I think the reason is that you never see anyone rush you is because you are already rushing them before they can start their rush ANd when people see you, they know you as a rusher so they naturally back off. - Bob (SRB)

Hmm this is probably true, yet there's always this time that comes around where I shoot at someone, miss or kill, but then there's a 3rd guy who comes in as a vulch and they go into this mad attempt to rush me while I have little energy, I guess they inspire themselves to rush me to prove something in front of me or w/e, but it always ends up in this horrible escapade that gets them nowhere, but is quite amusing to witness nevertheless.

[TopGod]

CP = 9b = <3 = ?squad top = $$$

[WiseCherub]

BTW, I saw that reply Blood (I have no idea why you would say that to me - WiseCherub

Rofl saw that reply coming; if you knew him you'd understand =P

But the problem is that there is no competition anymore so theres no reason to care. - TopGod

Let's duel (;

Well I don't know blood at all, all I know he is from Finland and one of the best rushers in this Zone. He is most likely better than me as a dueler, and sure I can accept that. I'm sure fair share of wb duelers are better than me at the moment. I need work and not afraid to admit it. But at the same time, I'm not afraid to duel anyone. Like TopGod said, its better to duel someone better than you, therefore you learn from it. Like in Chess, better to play someone better than you -- like a ChessMaster.
Ok, Sirius, in this paragraph I'am humble.... but for good reason. No, I'm not devoid of ego... no bloody way..lol

BTW, I have dueled you Sirius (or Lofty), in elim.. remember we had a little 1v1 at the end of an ELIM about 2-3 days ago? Yes, your rushing is quite deadly, and in most cases you get me. Luckily my rockshot got you at the end, you are very hard to fool... of course you know all the bullshit...and your not stupid. But if I'm online it would be a great challenge to duel you, even though I might lose alot.

Yeah like Pickle said you need ego, it's one of the main things that will give it to you. I'm one of the most arrogant people you'll see on this game, and there are a few tradeoffs whether you're arrogant or not. Arrogance builds your character, and makes you a solid person; it drives you to achieve things on all sorts of levels, but at the same time, due to our evolved cerebral cortex and the sensitive emotional topography it brings about, [you'd have to read one of my papers about it to understand that sphere better if you don't] implications of superiority disgust the mind as an outcome of indirect defensive calculation done deep inside. This brings about favorable loathings of arrogance, ego, and usually quite parallel to physics, the more impact the arrogance/ego has, the more collective of a rebuttal there is against the person demonstrating it. If you can get through to the person somehow through their ego barrier though, there's usually a lot more to get out of it than from an average person.

Ok, I completely understand you, and I agree on the most part. Most people on here are probably alot younger than myself. I'am 31 (born 1973), I have been thru tons of life experiences to come up with some conclusions regarding certain issues in life.

EGO(PRIDE) vs Humility(Humbleness) issue: for dueling, life, etc...

I believe in Balance, equalilibrim..... this of course is what the Universe tries for -- balance all the time. For example: Conservation Laws.. action/reaction..Order/Chaos..Good/Evil...etc

EGO(PRIDE):
Ok, you going on about "Only the strongest survive!", Animal Kingdom stuff.. Might is Right..type stuff.. kill or be killed.. limitations do not exist, you are ahead of the crowd... Let your intellectual prowess outwit the retards(slow at thought).. Elitist rhetoric..
----

The above here (last paragraph) is Carnal Man thinking (3D Boxworld thinking). Sorry, don't wana insult you, but perhaps let you consider another way of thinking, which may infact help you a tiny bit. This isn't about insulting you, its about all us humans in general.

There is some in this game I have talked with have played the game longer than both of us. They don't care for the term ELITE, or how many hrs they played..etc.. they just play as usual and take it as it comes.. I favor this line of thought. It just seems sensible to me. Heck, some of them care not for reputation or to be classified as an ELITE.

HUMILITY(HUMBLENESS):

Often overlooked, and avoided...usually most say in their mind: like who wants to be a wimp, or weak. f*ck that! I wana be strong and mighty.. crush my enemies without mercy. For 3D boxworld thinking this is illogical, why cause this is higher dimensional thinking and has many implications we can't readily perceive at the 3D level.

I dare the intelligent on here to take the time to read these verses, ok, you may think ah the Bible.. boring..yawn, but consider this, these words may be handy in many things you do in your life.

Proverbs (NIV): 11:2, 16:5, 16:18-19

Art of War (Sun Tzu): (If the Bible isn't good enough for you)

"A Military Operation involves deception. Even though you are competent, appear to be incompetent. Though effective, appear to be ineffective."

"Use humility to make them haughty. Tire them by flight. Cause division among them. Attack when they are unprepared, make your move when they do not expect it."

Ah, you can go on and on quoting...blah blah..

But all I know thru humility you gain wisdom and understanding for future strength/skill, thru arroganance(loftiness) you gain fleeting victory, ignorance, stagnation, and eventually self-destruction.

By humility, you learn/test/probe your enemy, then you later use this wisdom/knowledge to destroy your enemy.

As Foreign said, with the first 5 kills, I assess my enemy... and then adapt the styles I'll need to beat them.

As Mattey said, it helps to know like 90% of the people who play this game. Oh yes, quite important... smart

As TopGod said, better to play someone better than you. humiliting at first, but rewarding later.

As Sirius said, with ego/ambition brings confidence (a catalyst) to push you to evolve in skill.

Win or lose, in this game, it really doesn't change anything in our real life. Of course we all wana win, its nice.. but it is always fleeting.. we still play on and on, looking for something or trying to quench our eternal thirst. For some reason, we are always thirsty (addictive)...

You know sometimes I find dodging more fun than firing...

What does all the above have to do with this thread, a hell of a lot!! lol

I dont know the age group in here and I figure it's leaning towards the younger side of the scale, but I'll mention this anyway. The instinctual mind is tweaked to strive towards self gain as a method of survival, this is true for all animals as well (this is a deep topic, if you need further elaboration ask me for my 'Mind vs Consciousness' paper), yet our evolved cerebral cortex brings about consciousness and emotion, which takes a bias and flawed path of [emotional reasoning] towards things it percieves. To make a long story short, in the end result we have a moralistic society teaching things like 'give instead of recieve' or 'don't be selfish', which makes our two key aspects [mind and consciousness] locked in a non-resolvable conflict of instinctual requirement vs. emotional well-being.

Where is this Mind Vs Consciousness paper, I would love to read it. thanks..

[Epinephrine]

The main reason I bring this up, is I think its sort of cool how knowledge/wisdom is passed on to others. Its quite interesting how these 1st Generation wb duelers trained younger more recent wb duelers... and so the knowledge is passed on.

Back in the day when I had lots of time I trained 3 different people in wb who all became #1 in elim after they were done with my training Only one of them is still known though, Jack.

Anyway a lot of people bring up some interesting points. In fact a lot of people have brought up the same dodging and momentum points which I originally brought up on the first page of this thread (Blood's points about rocks, and Sirius' points about dodging both encompass the same ideas).

The fact is while there is no one 'right' way to play the game, most good players have long ago figured out what the 'best' way to play the game is, and all more or less use them. Everyone has differing skills. For instance I can say that Demonfaze has absolutely incredible aim. When he's trying, it's almost as if every shot of his that should hit, does hit. He just doesn't make any aiming mistakes. So he can afford to play a bit different in terms of dodging because he will always win.

Myself for instance, when I concentrate, I can run from any amount of people possible and stay alive indefinately. This is mostly due to the fact that my forumlative year in SS was spent in SVS Running zone, where it was part of the game to have 20 people chasing you at all times.

Mattey has the famous mattey style of charging into people and shooting and hitting them with seemingly no dodging. Mattey is a good shot so he can do this to almost anyone in the zone, but as the best players will tell you, this also leaves him up for easy deaths as it's easy to get him in a team situation (why he isn't the best league player).

Burnt has an excellent radar shot. He usually stays back, but he can kill people from far away very well.

Regardless of what the stereotype 'Mattey', 'Burnt', 'Demonfaze' is, these players being good players all know the basics. They know how to dodge, they know positioning, they know how to shoot. But the absolutely most important thing that all good players share is this.

I'll let you in on the secret. Well it's not really a secret, but it's how good people get good. This is the first chapter of what was to be my WB Dueling Guide that I never quite finished.

(Continued in next message)

[Epinephrine]

How to play a warbird well in Trench Wars
=========================================
The following is a guide on how to improve your skill level while playing a Warbird in Trench Wars. Although the most serious gamers will benefit by far the most, anyone who has a positive attitide about this can pick up some pointers that will improve their overall game. I recommend progressing through this tutorial slowly. It usually takes me a week to properly teach someone, and in some cases a month. So don't expect miracles overnight.


Disclaimer
-------------------------------
Please note that this guide is for serious people only. Although anyone can benefit from this, only the serious student will be able to master this. Ideally if I taught you in person it would be better, but of course I cannot teach everyone, so this will reach more people! Also if you are not serious about trying to improve your skill then you may find that what I taught you might not be all that useful. This is not a fault of the teaching, it is just that to learn anything you should have a serious attitude if you wish to succeed. Also this is obviously not the only way to play a warbird. The way I play is based mostly in using your brain. I don't have too many inate skills at Subspace, and I rely on my brain and thinking to succeed. Please know that before you start reading


Chapter 1: It's all in the Brain
-------------------------------

1.1 Attitude
------------
The most important thing when playing anything is attitude. No matter how much you know, how much you practice, if you don't go in with a positive attitude you cannot succeed. Attitude is not getting worked up over anything. If you die, you die and you move on. Your only goal is to play well for yourself. Remember, if you try 100% all the time, then after a while trying 100% really won't seem hard at all, it will be completely NATURAL. In fact after trying 100% to be good all the time, you'll find it hard to play bad unless you're specifically screwing around.

This of course is not limited to Subspace. In any sports that you play, or in school the harder you try the better you'll do. If you contiously push yourself to higher and higher goals and try your best to meet them you cannot but do better.

1.2 Concentration
-----------------
It is very important to have good concentration while playing. Even if you are a master, concentration always helps. Anyone remember Jeraden? Remember when he was really good? He never ever typed a single word while playing. Sure he uses a gamepad, but thanks to that he can concentrate. From observation and experience, if you concentrate completely on the GAME and only on the game while playing you will play better. If you want you can listen to music, but it's a bad idea to watch TV or talk to someone in real life while playing. It's also a bad idea to read anything anyone types while playing. Because of the nature of Trench Wars, you can die even by reading for one split second from a stray shot. Do what you must whether that means typing ?lines=0 or just ignoring all typing it using mental will. Try not to drawn in a conversation while playing, because then you'll die for sure. Also if you die, resist the urge to be mad and/or spam or type anything. The second your fingers leave from the playing position you've lost your concentration. Concentration takes a long time to properly build in no matter what it is you're doing. If you already have good concentration from a real life activity then you are advantaged. If not, you really do need it to do well. Finally don't pay attention to your record. Thinking about your record WHILE PLAYING will just screw you up. Think about that after, while you're playing... just play.

1.3 Remembering your Mistakes
-----------------------------
I remember watching a documentary on this Russian goalie from the 1970s-80s.. Stalankov was his name I think. He was probably the best goalie ever (he managed to stop Wayne Gretzky and Canada in the 1984 Canada Cup I think). His personal philosophy was, anytime he made a mistake and let a goal in, he would remember exactly what he did. He would have a mental image of the events leading up to the goal, and how he managed to not to be able to save the puck. Then he would make a mental note that he would never make the same mistake again, and he never did. That is how he became the best goalie in the world. The same applies in Trench Wars. After you get killed, it is best not to dwell on your deaths at all. Just remember how you died, remember what you did to get in that position and make a mental note NEVER to do it again. Obviously you aren't perfect and will probably make the same mistake again, but if you try very consiously to not do that, you will play better!

1.4 Set Goals
-------------
As I've mentioned if you try 100% all the time, and you set yourself some goals to reach you will undoubtly do better. Goals are only a guide to help you, and they do work. Here are some sample goals, which work the best in elim as you get constant feedback but work anywhere else:
1) Try for ranking, every week try to improve your ranking
2) Improve your kill:death ratio. Start a just a bit better than what you have now.. then try and aim for 2:1, then 3:1, then 4:1 if you ever get there.
3) Improve the amount of kills you get. After you are comfortable with your kill:death ratio, or even while you're trying to improve that, try and improve the amount of kills you get per game. Remember the more kills you get, the more fun it is, and the more of an impact you will have on anything outside of elim.
4) Win games. Win as many games as you can. When you try to win, you try much harder than under any other circumstance!

1.5 Playing "Lame"
------------------
I'm personally against playing lamely in games. My defination would be playing like Nemo. Basically hiding in the back, and waiting until everyone else dies out so then you have so many lives left you will win even if you suck. That's no way to play. First of all it's boring, and second of all you won't get better playing like that! Try your best to contionously kill people, but stay alive by dodging and having situational awareness (more on that later). Hiding just makes you a loser and no one likes hiders! In my book unless you average at least 10 kills/game in elim then you aren't good. And yes I'm including all games to 1/3/5 in that equation so ideally you should get around 15+ kills per game to 10 to be able to completely average 10 when you type !rank to Robo Ref. In the league or DM sense, if you aren't killing you aren't helping your team win. Simple as that.

1.6 Staying Alive
-----------------
With the last part firmly in your mind it is still important to know that staying alive is important. Your kills won't matter for anything if you die out! Finding a good balance for yourself between getting kills and not dying is important. When I was playing at my peak I would get kills continously, averaging around 17 kills per game and I won around 70% of my elim games (usually lagged out of 10% of them :P). In league games it is VERY important not to die out. Whenever you die out, you leave your team at a HUGE disadvantage. Just don't play so far in the back that you don't any kills, but don't die out

===============

-Epi

[Epinephrine]

So the take home message is, try. Try as hard as you can. Then try harder.

If you're in a position where you can't try because you're tired, or because you are distracted then don't play. Playing bad games only makes you bad. If you want to get good, you have to feel it, you have to believe it and above all you have to live it.

Finally, most people in this game that are good, got good by themselves. They learned some by playing other good players. They learned some by dueling other good players. But most of all, they figured it out in their own heads what to do, and how to play and how to succeed. It doesn't take a long time to get good at this game. In my years I've seen people play for only a few months and already be considered one of the best in the zone. They didn't play 24/7 either. They just had the right attitude coming in, and they wasted no time in becoming the best.

-Epi
P.S. Why being arrogant and an egotistical bastard usually isn't good in general, it's good not to ever be afraid of any opponent. You can beat anyone if you try hard enough, don't be scared, just play smart.

[WiseCherub]

Back in the day when I had lots of time I trained 3 different people in wb who all became #1 in elim after they were done with my training Only one of them is still known though, Jack.

So were you the original in the TW Zone to start wb dueling training? The first to realize much of the tactics many of us take for granted today. Omg, Jack Keifer.. quite a seed you planted...lol

Also who trained you? Or did you learn all on your own? The one who trained you is he/she still playing or long retired.

Yes, I found your TW History quite a good read, and woke me up. Thanks for writing that, it means alot to some who weren't fortunate enough to start playing this game way back then. I envy the ones who were around back then.

If you read further back you will see that TopGod said he tried writing a "How to become a Elite" document to help less skilled wb duelers, but later got frustrated that many he tried to help didn't appreciate it or learned anything from it.

I call my document "Trenchwar Warbird Dueler Help", I don't call it how to become elite... for that term is a bit funny in a 2D Video Game.

I have not refined it, but I have a master plan to refine it so well, that I could take a 1day new player and within 1-3 months make them above average skill atleast. The trick is to find the new player who has these attributes: patience, intelligence, activeness, not too much ego..good attitude.

The problem is when you train someone, they latter develop a "better than everyone else ego".. don't even say hi to you, forget you, and don't even say thank you... sometimes I feel rather hurt by this... I thought they were friends, obviously they weren't, just users(losers).

Why I do this?

Well, to help out the underdogs, make new friends who have good personality -- yet need help in skill, as I have a squad now.. I won't let cocky elite wb duelers dictate(or manipulate) how I run my own squad, to have a limitless supply of a duelers with an attitude and personality I can get along with. Also as a game in itself, and to help me learn more myself... also if I leave this game for long periods, I can quickly become unrusty and not forget skills..I might forget after leaving this game for long periods.

Why not mass distribute?

Well isn't it prudent not to give out to enemies? I'm very surprised the amount of information be flooded in this thread, I assumed most elites would horde their knowledge to maintain their edge over others. As you wrote in your TW History regarding the 1280x1024 ressolution limit, many didn't adapt to this and as result either retired or lost their edge over others.

Why distribute?

As TopGod and many other complained... we don't bother playing the game, cause there is no competition. Well wouldn't devulging tips/tactics in what gives you your edge help increase the tw wb dueler population a tiny bit?
Also the players who chose to be arrogant, and are simply too lazy to think before they play.. wouldn't it not help out our enemies. I consider these type of players my enemies.. mockers, immature...trashtalkers, whiners.. etc.. all Amateur players, I have utter contempt for them. Why? Cause they make the game less enjoyable for me, don't care for the leagues/Zone and are just pure distortion.

What should I do, quite confused now?

Release on my webpage all I know about tw wb dueling? Or perhaps work together with someone wiser/(more experience), and help them put together a well put document.

I admit, I enjoy maintaining an edge over others, but still there is another half of me that wants to help others.. especially my squad mates and good friends (or friends I never met yet).

You see whatever I write may appear to be pure crap. Why? Cause I don't have a Ph.D in Wb dueling yet..lol, so if say Blood wrote docs.. everyone would read it over what I could write.. same goes for you epinephrine..

Thanks for showing interest, I value your input (epinephrine).

[Epinephrine]

I doubt I was the first, although I don't know of anyone who trained (good) people back then, maybe some newbies trained up other newbies I can't say, although I'm sure there was training going on. I just took it to the next level with nightly lessons.

No one taught me. I played in SVS for 2 1/2 years before I ever came into TW. I just played TW, watched some good people in elim from spec a few games, and got good within a month.

In SVS no one taught me either, I just played until I got good...

-Epi
P.S. Thanks, and I'm glad you enjoyed my history thing