?go Base Captaincy Needs a List of Veteran Caps

[Rab]

We've told you what to do in an unbiased way and it's your bias that's blocking it.

[qan]

Good question. Why did you propose using TWDT ratings to begin with? (You realized a flaw in the plan, and had to pivot. That's totally normal.)

It just needs to be able to be reviewed by the community. That's all. I believe in your ability to judge basers. But you don't have the luxury of claiming people should be able to trust you.

My job isn't to feel important or win internet arguments. It's to ensure whatever we do, we do fairly. I'm (genuinely) sorry that sometimes that creates headaches for you and others, but that's the unfortunate cost of keeping a broad and diverse group of players happy. I'm doing my best to make it easier. It sounds like we've discovered a problem with the initial plan, which was to base a whitelist off of TWDT stars. It also sounds like rating all basers with even a simple rating is prohibitively time-consuming. And unfortunately, nobody can be trusted to create a qualitatively-defined whitelist without bias. So it looks like we need to work at this from another angle. There have been many other solutions proposed here; maybe one of these could accomplish roughly the same effect, perhaps with a little tweaking?

This is dev. It's sometimes painful, but it's part of the process. We keep hammering at it until we find a solution that works.

[ogron]

Forget it, you're pathologically crippled and need to turn everything into a fucking 9000 word debate about nothing to feel important. Absolutely insane.

I literally gave you a list of every relevant baser to have ever played from 2008-2019. I have the most comprehensive list of basers known to man based on statistics from over 25 TWLB and TWDT-B Seasons, the eye test, and earned titles, that includes 10x more names than TWDT. How would you even have a whitelist using TWDT ratings when so many players aren't in TWDT and don't have TWDT-B ratings?

You don't play this game, and you don't know what the hell you're doing.

[Falconeer]

According to clause it's as simple as having a list, so add me and jessup to the list to captain, and we're good.

If your response to this Clause is no fucking way would we add you or jessup or some variation in between then my next statement would be; who decides who gets added to the list? and based on what?

Is this a CLUB you walk by on the street where the bouncer decides if you are worthy to get in based on if your haircut is cool enough? Are you the decider? are a group of people the deciders? people can then be bias or choose who they prefer or want to have a captain spot. So is this some cheerleader club or sorority from the Mean girls movie?...

This is why qan is saying there has to be criteria, and I agree with him.

Otherwise do what was done previously, have a list for people who can't captain based on trolling or major losses in the stats (more than 50% of their games lose; something statistically significant, after lets say 20 games - which is a good pool size.)

Or make it so anyone on the captain list, can add anyone on the captain list, but not remove people, and they don't need approval from you or anyone else. This way only 1 of the 30 people on the list have to agree Jessup can captain and once they add him, that's it, he's on it for life (like they vouch for him). If he griefs the captain spot after, then he can be banned from the list and that would be decided by a mod/staff.

[Jessup]

If my name is not on any list to be able to cap ?go base along with ogrons I call BS. This guy routinely rage quits base games ruining them for everyone involved when he does so and has done this for years. He insults the player base on a daily basis in game and also likes to bully players with threats whenever he has had positions of power or influence. He is notorious as a cap to exclude players who have been waiting to play for multiple consecutive games while he uses the same people over and over and over. I remember numerous times also when he is cap and I have been cap of my team winning. So I am more than capable of being on this cap list. But again no list needs to be made.. there is no urgent problem at all in go base and no action is needed to correct it.

[qan]

This isn't complicated. The issue is in showing not just who is on the whitelist, but also, who isn't. That needs to be made explicit so that anyone can see it. Right now it isn't clear. It's fine if it's all 7* in base, all 8*, or some other numerical criteria. But it needs to be based on a number, so that the number can be challenged, because as I said before, nobody in this zone can be trusted to be objective. People can be extremely petty, in other words. (I'm not saying this about you or Rab in particular. As I said, I can be the same way.) That's why I was completely fine with this idea when you were basing it off of TWDT stars, and also why am absolutely against it now.

The number can be as simple as 1 for "allowed as vet cap" and 0 for "not allowed." But right now the list is just a series of ones, "allowed," without specifying who is 0, "not allowed."

I was suggesting a middle tier, as a compromise for those who are somewhere between vet and complete newbie, who would have secondary priority after the vet caps, but that's not strictly necessary. It seems like it might be a useful distinction, though, as so many people fall into the category of being far better at capping than a random from another zone, yet not as capable as a vet cap.

[Falconeer]

I don't understand what you're talking about. Tiers, ratings systems, what? We don't need anything complicated.

Whoever on the whitelist types !cap first within 30 seconds, gets cap... it's super simple.

Sure, add me and Jessup to the whitelist.

[ogron]

I don't understand what you're talking about. Tiers, ratings systems, what? We don't need anything complicated.

Whoever on the whitelist types !cap first within 30 seconds, gets cap... it's super simple.

[qan]

Still needs to be quantified somehow, though.

I don't think you want to use star ratings anymore, so let's use something else. Shouldn't be too tough. It doesn't need to be fine-grained, either. To make it simple, I'd suggest 3 tiers, rather than a 1 to 10 system, so that you don't have to think too much about if one player is better than another as a captain, and inevitably stir up drama when people are rated a certain way and take offense.

For tiers, could go with vet caps, second-tier caps, and those who have no business captaining except when there's absolutely nobody else available. I think likely most people 8* and above are on the first list, some of the 7*s are either on the first or second (perhaps even third in a few cases), and everyone 6* and below is probably on the third list, with perhaps some exceptions. Using such a scheme as a starting point, all you would need to do is make corrections, mostly sorting the 7*s. That's basically what you've already done, but it just needs quantification, particularly of those being excluded, so that it's transparent. If you think this would take an unreasonable amount of time, please let me know, as unless I'm mistaken it wouldn't be a time-consuming job.

[ogron]

I don't even see what the issue is. It's a very minor change.

For 30 seconds after a ?go base game completes, only whitelisted captains can !cap.

When base is popping, it ensures there's good captains making as balanced lines as possible, and prevents the momentum from being repeatedly killed by trolls and new players adding horrid lines that result in 10-1 stomps and makes people on both teams miserable.

Anyone can start go base, and if veteran captains aren't around or are unwilling to cap, then after 30 seconds anyone can claim !cap.

The vast majority of persons in ?go base play go base. At a much higher rate than in the past, too. Like Cripple, I remember being repeatedly benched when starting out. That almost never happens now, even for players who are significantly worse than Cripple or I ever were. Most captains go out of their way to add new players and scrubs near the end of their selections.

I've already done most of the work by giving a comprehensive list of every relevant baser from 2008 to present and then double-checking the entire TWDT-B 2019 rosters just in-case.

[Falconeer]

Lol what a fucking snowflake environment this has turned into huh?

am I the only one that remembers getting benched every go base when it had 40 people in the arena every 20 minutes waiting to get picked? I?d return every 20 minutes hoping I?d get picked.

i had to go back to pub to practice and get better.

i agree with the qualified captain position. We can agree that someone with basing knowledge has to be a captain so the game isn?t a boring 10-0.

and a newbie or two can get added to balance. But you need captains who can build a team around them.

how is this even a topic of debate lol

Back when the arena had 40 people, the public probably could have benefited from 2 bases in 1 arena running at the same time, or 2 arenas.

That being said i don't actually agree or think it's fair you had to wait longer than 1 hour to get picked. I know it was like a right of passage, and you could endure it and work your way into the fold, but we're talking about a dying game now with people who would just log off and play Destiny 2, or another game, rather than wait to be picked. 20 minutes seems like the duration of a game, and it's reasonable you'd be skipped one game. But getting skipped twice, or three times when a bunch of people already played is B.S imo.

Qualified captain positions aren't a bad idea, but yeah a newbie or two should be added whenever possible... so seems we're in agreement. I'm just saying there are ways to promote/encourage who gets added.

Having to practice to get better for go base, which is a pre-league environment that is meant to be a practice arena in itself, is dumb. ?go base is the practice for league, isn't it? or is it meant to be a rated ladder system for league players only? In which case the only way to play in that arena is by having played in one league.

[Efhat]

Lol what a fucking snowflake environment this has turned into huh?

am I the only one that remembers getting benched every go base when it had 40 people in the arena every 20 minutes waiting to get picked? I?d return every 20 minutes hoping I?d get picked.

i had to go back to pub to practice and get better.

i agree with the qualified captain position. We can agree that someone with basing knowledge has to be a captain so the game isn?t a boring 10-0.

and a newbie or two can get added to balance. But you need captains who can build a team around them.

how is this even a topic of debate lol

[Tha -X- killah]

I don't think anyone is saying newbies have more right to play.

There is just a slight fear that captains have a tendency to add the players they know, which would be the well established basers.
If this happens consistently, then newbies will not get to play as much, and people will not be allowed to try new things and experiment.
This could be discouraging for people, and may discourage new players to start playing competatively altogether.

[Rab]

"newbies must play" is not a requirement of base. They have no more right to play than a veteran baser.

[Falconeer]

Nobody asked for that and it doesn't do anything to ensure captains are good quality. It's just some off-topic random requirement you just made up.

How is ensuring inexperienced players can play off topic?

When you make a VIP list for captains, you're excluding people from captaining. One of the major reasons people captain is because they aren't ever drafted to play. People want to logon and not have to wait 1-2 hours to play one game. One way to do this was to grab a captain spot, which would no longer be possible for some players.

A VIP captain list is a rule to protect veteran players from inexperienced players/captains. So i'm proposing a rule/system that would balance it out and make everyone happy without relying solely on the good will of others to let a new guy into the game.

Everything is inter-connected and what you do effects many areas of the game (league for example) and many different people.

Anyway it's just a suggestion. I'd appreciate it if I was free to suggest things like you are.

BTW another thing i've seen done is that when one team wins, they are an undefeated team, and all players stay in the game with the same captain. The losing team is specced and a new captain is chosen, so a new team has to be made to defeat the undefeated team. And any speccers from the undefeated can be replaced. Just thought it was a neat concept.

Rab my suggestion was for qan anyway, he's the one who would have to code, so 99% chance he won't want to do that much work or doesn't have the time. The benefit of speaking up though is that it's a suggestion he can look up later or mark down... in case the problem becomes severe and needs attention. So I wouldn't worry too much, from what I gather about the thread Qan is going to make a captain list, but he's going to do it in a fair way (that takes more time)... seems like a good compromise to me, so no reason to be sour at me :/