?go Base Captaincy Needs a List of Veteran Caps

[Falconeer]

All i'm trying to say is you want to have rules "protecting" pro players who probably outnumber inexperienced players in ?go base (not many inexperienced players are in there compared to in pub). But by the same token no one wants official rules protecting inexperienced players. There are no rules that I'm aware of that protect new/inexperienced players in league, like at all.

With that said, it's the staff/communities right to do that, if that's what the majority wants. But keep in mind what you sow in the spring, is what you reap in the fall. In my opinion a zone should be trying to cultivate their new players, make it easy for them to enter league without having to jump through hurdles. At the very least some sort of balance between the vet active players and the inexperienced possibly interested in league players should be there. Cultivate the little guy who probably doesn't have many friends in the game, and who is new to league and you effectively ensure in the very long term - future leagues and more fun for yourself and your veteran friends.

Like this should be the golden rule in any game: "I want to be able to logon and not have to wait 1-2 hours to play" Sure it's true in pub, but what if i am seeking out the same fun you are all seeking out in ?go base? But everyone keeps me benched and then dinner is ready and I have to log off?

That's all i'm trying to say. Not trying to ruffle feathers or upset anyone by seeming disagreeable or anything like that. So i just hope you guys keep this in mind, whatever the outcome of this thread, if you see a new guy/girl, invite them to play.

[Falconeer]

Falco goes into a thread about newbies wrecking the game and says what it needs is more newbies.
Newbie logic.

I mean don't tell me you wouldn't be happier with a 12 squad league and 400 players in pub? We all want more players. I want noobies to play so they stop being noobies, so they join leagues.

Personally, I don't care if i ever captain, not in hockey zone, not in pro league, and not in TW base. I just care that when I login it doesn't take 2 hours to have 1 game.

So I'm trying to advocate for people to not be excluded. I'm saying YOU guys decide what is best but keep in mind not to exclude someone because he's inexperienced. Make some requirement that 1 out of 8 players should preferably be low rated or something. This in a way makes games more fun because you're not always playing with the same 8 people. There's an element of unknown on your team now, and equally on the other persons team if there were 2 new guys in the arena.

You could also have pro hour? 1 hour of the day you could give preferential captainship to vets? You could also make it once a day. Once a day a 7/10 rated player is chosen as captain over a new player. But only once. Second time, it's even/time based.

[BIET]

In any kind of sport you get this problem as well. That's why there are divisions if there are enough people for it to work. You just generally know their skill set and you can base your pick on that knowledge. There are captains who would pick players that have been in spec for a while, it is most likely not half as bad as described in this thread.

Also with the previous way of allowing anyone to claim !cap at any time it would still not solve the problem of some players not getting picked. And claiming a captain spot just to get yourself a moment to play. I feel like that is a terrible way to go, unless the player is also really keen on getting to make the lineup. A point system would be to complex and there are already TWBD and TWDTB that could fill that role, sort of. It just remains a difficult problem whenever the 16 player limit is reached, but I think if you apply Rab's points you shouldn't be waiting very long. And after getting picked once, you are more likely to get picked again in the future.

P.S.

I will try to quote more of the text I'm responding to in the future. It might seem like I'm just rambling to everyone and no one in particular

[Rab]

Falco goes into a thread about newbies wrecking the game and says what it needs is more newbies.
Newbie logic.

[Falconeer]

Let's say there are 20 players in base and all wanting to play, you end up with 4 players not getting to play. The reason they weren't picked can vary a lot, maybe they are inexperienced, not recognized by others, overlooked or just entered later. Would you force captains to pick players that have been in spec for a long time waiting, and would it be elitist if they were just picking their preferred lineup? This game is over 20 years old now, I'd assume some of these rules apply a bit differently than they do in other games. Doesn't mean it isn't a shame some players aren't getting the play time they want, but it is hard to get 1 base game going let alone two. I believe most of the times both games die completely whenever two games are running. The players needed to for an extra game of base is at least 12, theoretically, and in practice a bit more.

Yes it's elitist not to pick players consistently because you think they are bad, you pre-judged them, or you prefer someone else over them. That is the very definition of elitism, when a certain group of players get to play constantly and another group is excluded and often ignored.

If it were me I would include player ratings in base and make it so each basing team needs a total rating between a minimum limit and a maximum limit. If a top player was rated 10k and there were 8 players, it would be a maximum limit of 80k skill team. This would not be encouraged. Instead teams would have to be between 40k and 60k. And would have to have a similar rating to the opposing team. You could recruit 4 pros to get to 40k and then 4 players who are rated 5k to get to 60k. BTW these numbers are just examples.

My point is I would want someway to ensure always that 1-2 noobs if they are in spec are prioritized and chosen, on each team, while keeping the teams balanced. Like even if it's a culture of "The last/eigth player chosen must always be a noob, or someone who didn't get much game time yet". Can we start that culture up? If so then you can have preferential captains imo, since it won't cause harm.

Like if team sizes are 8, then each team having 1 new/inexperienced player, should be balanced. As a captain I would be trying to get people play time as a first priority and as a second priority i would offset someone i think has bad skill by picking someone good who could carry them. The issue is when the other captain stacks the team and has no consideration for the new guy. Then my team would be at a disadvantage (though i typically don't care and play anyway).

Anyway, you guys decide whatever, if it's unfair later when I have time i'll probably start a thread saying I can't play in ?go base i have to wait 1/2 hours to get chosen lol.

[BIET]

Let's say there are 20 players in base and all wanting to play, you end up with 4 players not getting to play. The reason they weren't picked can vary a lot, maybe they are inexperienced, not recognized by others, overlooked or just entered later. Would you force captains to pick players that have been in spec for a long time waiting, and would it be elitist if they were just picking their preferred lineup? This game is over 20 years old now, I'd assume some of these rules apply a bit differently than they do in other games. Doesn't mean it isn't a shame some players aren't getting the play time they want, but it is hard to get 1 base game going let alone two. I believe most of the times both games die completely whenever two games are running. The players needed to for an extra game of base is at least 12, theoretically, and in practice a bit more.

[Rab]

How is this going to ensure the guy from pub, other zone, or who wants to practice for league won't be waiting 5 full base games before being chosen on a team? I will test it out by going to base and if I have to wait longer then 2 base games and on top of it I can't even captain to get in, then your game is elitist and broken.

If base could have continued all night... then why didn't a pro ?claim a captain spot and continue it all night? You're not making sense. What is the constitution of people in this zone? Paper? Wah someone was a noob I'm going to go when otherwise I could just claim a spot and play a quality game all night? I don't get it. If anyone can claim a captain spot what is stopping 10 pros from doing it? They clearly outnumber the noobs?

How was Johnie able to claim two spots in a row? or was there in fact other games in between?

New people do get added. There were some people playing yesterday I'd never seen before.
New people capping because they don't get added might happen currently, and when it does it breaks the game because they don't know who to pick. This is one of the scenarios we want to be fixed.
Johnie got cap because he was one of the first 2 people to do it. That's not a good system for ensuring a good quality game.

[Falconeer]

How is this going to ensure the guy from pub, other zone, or who wants to practice for league won't be waiting 5 full base games before being chosen on a team? I will test it out by going to base and if I have to wait longer then 2 base games and on top of it I can't even captain to get in, then your game is elitist and broken.

1. I could enter as myself, and never speak. Bet I would never get added for 1 year.
2. I could enter as myself and speak up "Add me" see how long it takes?
3. I could enter aliased and never speak.
4. I could enter aliased and speak up "Add me"
5. Repeat all variables after being added once and see how often I am added.

If base could have continued all night... then why didn't a pro ?claim a captain spot and continue it all night? You're not making sense. What is the constitution of people in this zone? Paper? Wah someone was a noob I'm going to go when otherwise I could just claim a spot and play a quality game all night? I don't get it. If anyone can claim a captain spot what is stopping 10 pros from doing it? They clearly outnumber the noobs?

How was Johnie able to claim two spots in a row? or was there in fact other games in between?

I am curious about the timing of the captain spots being claimed. Are both spots claimed well before 30 seconds passed after the arena message or was there a waiting game on who would claim the second spot? Also, if players are really pissed off about games being ruined by sub par captains, they could start a TWBD game and borrow. It isn't much more effort and would ensure overall better captains. If theres at all an opportunity of players to claim a captain spot before a less desirable players takes it, it should be up to the more experienced players to prevent that and no extra help from a timer and approved list should be needed. If the spots are taken within 2 seconds it might suffice to give approved captains a 5 seconds breathing room to claim a spot before it is up for grabs for anyone. 30 seconds might be too long to make approved players not appreciate the privilege they have been granted or abuse it as such. They should be the ones responsible for not stepping up if a timer is in place with the punishment being (a) possibly terrible captain(s). We HAVE to make players understand they can also help in improving the state of the game and not let them think someone else will fix it for them. We can do so much as a community and we shouldn't need to have to resort to curated lists of any kinds.

This makes sense.

Also in hockey zone you can get in line to captain at any point. Are you saying you can't get in line to captain until the current game ends here? The benefit of being in a queue for captain is that after a 20 minute game, you have 5 seconds to claim the spot, and if you miss it, the next person in captain queue is up. Also by the time a game ends you could be disinterested in captaining so you could !release your captain spot and move on. Not sure how it's working in TW.

[Rab]

I don't mind it being achieved as "captain ratings". I'd just recommend that we get our act together at having a central ratings database. Every time we need ratings we create another copy, it's pretty silly.

I think you're a bit too worried about bias. The nature of this issue is we are judging people, but we're doing it based on ability, not personal feelings. As it should be.

[BIET]

I am curious about the timing of the captain spots being claimed. Are both spots claimed well before 30 seconds passed after the arena message or was there a waiting game on who would claim the second spot? Also, if players are really pissed off about games being ruined by sub par captains, they could start a TWBD game and borrow. It isn't much more effort and would ensure overall better captains. If theres at all an opportunity of players to claim a captain spot before a less desirable players takes it, it should be up to the more experienced players to prevent that and no extra help from a timer and approved list should be needed. If the spots are taken within 2 seconds it might suffice to give approved captains a 5 seconds breathing room to claim a spot before it is up for grabs for anyone. 30 seconds might be too long to make approved players not appreciate the privilege they have been granted or abuse it as such. They should be the ones responsible for not stepping up if a timer is in place with the punishment being (a) possibly terrible captain(s). We HAVE to make players understand they can also help in improving the state of the game and not let them think someone else will fix it for them. We can do so much as a community and we shouldn't need to have to resort to curated lists of any kinds.

[qan]

Think at one point we had basing captain ratings. Ogron, you did them for S1 TSL, maybe? We could look at something like that. It needs to be quantified somehow, though, and reviewed for accuracy by many people like a TWDT rating might be, as there's just too much history and bad blood over the years between so many different people that there's practically no-one who can be trusted to act as a disinterested source of evaluation.

If we worked with captain ratings, it would also be easy to attach delays to ratings. The worse the rating, the larger the delay.

[Rab]

Also, if there's a cap who is a 10* player, and the other captain is only 7* - that's a massive advantage in lineup before picking even starts, the 7* captain would have to be an extremely good cap to overcome it.

[Rab]

Sorry qan but you're just wrong. Think of it like any sports team, some players become managers, most don't, it's a different skill set.

Quite a lot of the newbies who are so bad at capping it results in an imbalanced and therefore waste of time game are 7*.
If you included everyone who's 7* it wouldn't solve anything.
If you included everyone who's 8* it's less bad, but there's still people in there who can't cap or are inactive.
I resolved all that for you with my judgement and that's what my list is.
I'm not saying do exactly what I say, I gave us a starting point that other players can add/remove people from... waiting for someone else to contribute something constructive...

For example, last night we had 3 games in a row ruined by newbie caps.
Jessup (7*) pissing about with specials vs JAMAL (10*): http://www.trenchwars.org/base/129055
Johnie (6*) letting JAMAL (10*) have all the top players: http://www.trenchwars.org/base/129056
Johnie (6*) putting people in the wrong ships vs Morph (8*): http://www.trenchwars.org/base/129057
People got annoyed and went back to elim. Base could have continued all night, newbies killed it.

[qan]

That's not going to work, as it's just going to stir up tension. Needs to be a hard limit based on something measurable outside of the list itself ... for instance, tied directly to TWDT stars. I doubt any 7* basers are going to seriously screw things up by capping, for instance. If they are, they're probably overrated anyhow.

[Rab]

I posted a list of players yesterday. It includes most 8s and some 7s, based on my judgement basically. Just need someone to check it, amend, approve, and we're sorted.