Weasel Nerf'd

[Theif of Time]

No need to resort to childish name calling Cops.

On second thought, a weasel with a low powered EMP could lead to 2 things: weasel/jav combinations and weasel teaming (several simultaneous bombs)

How about we make a list of suggested tweakings/changes to weasel that could potentially balance it, then take to twdev to test? (would be nowhere near like pub play but relative strengths could be approximated)

[Cops]

nazi

[Kolar]

To me, this seems a contradiction. Upper staff have all the say of it yet its what the masses want? I don't recall being asked and I'd thought I was part of the masses. I know that upperstaff will always do things with the best intentions... but thats not necesarily popular or what (all) the masses may want. I personally have heard a few people saying they liked the changes, more saying they would live with it and a few wtf's (and 1 I'm quitting tw this sucks)

You're a small part of it Theif and you and others had a chance to discuss changes and balancing issues on here and other threads before the change. This is not a democracy but you're allowed to voice your opinion even if on the surface it does not count for much but this isn't a system where the uppers are handing out questionar sheets or doing polls, you have to get involved and asurt your opinion. I know there were no polls or anything but the public players do not have a strong presence on this forum or at all so it would have been a waste of time to do that here. also, knowing the strong resentment from the publics about the use of weasel or people changing them for anti-basing purposes should have motovated you and others to voice your opinion. Almost all of the proponents (people who hate Tone) of the weasel have decided not to continue to talk on here or addess anyone else on the other side and infact (if you wanna go 2 pages back) have done nothing but shit talk or blame people on this thread without giving logical reasons as to what this change does for publics or giving any new settings besides older ones. You can disagree with a change but questioning staff's motives is idiotic. It is not a contridiction. Upper Staff will do what is in their intrest: running a gaming server and making it more popular (until someone stops paying for it) and that's where staff and player intrest mesh. If you disagree with the change that's fine but don't question staff's intentions on this issue.

I'll concede they were related but its hardly such that jav is the only choice against the weasel (although it is oddly one of the best, better than terr imho), the fact that jav seems good at holding base, trick shots etc. is a greater motivation to pick jav.

Yes, it has moved some people over to using the jav more. I've suggested on another thread about making some additional changes to pubbots so that players can still use ?cheater but Guanobot and DoCkBot and publicbots would report repetitive TKing, inform the person about what tking is on the first tk ect.. (new players..), green engine shut down and energy depletion for less severe team killing. People will even with this continue to team kill so it is an addition to the policy and ?cheater system only not a replacment for mods.

Is it not true that a team confounded by spiders lining will mostly change to javs and bomb into flagroom? (incidentally causing tks with the less experienced javs)

That's one tactic for destorying a line Yes but is does not work well with a limited number of spiders which is normal for any publics.

Less expienced jav players are not good at hitting direct shots into the flag room from mid. This problem has been around for a while and needs a solution like the one I've provided. During all settings it has been a problem so something like the weasel would have to influence the players.

So arguably gunships (spiders/wbs/lanc's) using the particular strategy of lining is a greater or equal cause to a weasel presence. It also depends on the weasel, a particularly successful or hated player in weasel will cause more people to hunt them.

I rarely see lining, even in pure publics but whatever. The people holding the flag are basing and using the publics for their intented use. The idea here ToT is that we've changed a ship that has at times interfered with basing and allowed the publics to go stagnant because of this change. If you would not agree that the 2nd weasel settings did anything negitive to the entire public system then would you at least agree that we have a problem in non pure publics under any settings? We're not about to change the dynamics of the game to allow weasel to remain usable or viable if that means futher changing publics or other ship settings. LTing, tking javs and the weasel are all different topics and ones that I do not see effecting each other.

I would have to agree that the levi does not overly affect basing, but it is damn annoying sometimes.

Yeah i'm no fan of levi terriers either. It is fun to hunt them down with a WB or two sometimes.

Perhaps the weasel could get low powered EMP bombs. I realise this would be a problem as imo even red bombs would be too powerful, all I'm talking about is something to blast at an enemy with, to emp them at about...

Not a bad idea, it would be useful for cram breaking. Maybe lower the bullet damage with this, but keep the speed ect.. and lower the rate of energy loss for cloaking by a bit.

[Cops]

Nvm

[Fluffz]

i played it for like an hour yesterday, just thrust shoting. its a tiny wb with multifire that can enter the base any time. cloaking just makes it weaker. how is this supposed to make anything more stable? <_<

[Sumpson]

The Weasel changed? it's still as small isn't it? :turned:

[Theif of Time]

Upper Staff will always do what they believe to be in the best intentions of the zone and its players.

This is a case of popularity and what the masses want

To me, this seems a contradiction. Upper staff have all the say of it yet its what the masses want? I don't recall being asked and I'd thought I was part of the masses. I know that upperstaff will always do things with the best intentions... but thats not necesarily popular or what (all) the masses may want. I personally have heard a few people saying they liked the changes, more saying they would live with it and a few wtf's (and 1 I'm quitting tw this sucks)

The use of the previous cloaker settings was related to the abnormal number of javs because of the X-Radar ability

I'll concede they were related but its hardly such that jav is the only choice against the weasel (although it is oddly one of the best, better than terr imho), the fact that jav seems good at holding base, trick shots etc. is a greater motivation to pick jav.
Is it not true that a team confounded by spiders lining will mostly change to javs and bomb into flagroom? (incidentally causing tks with the less experienced javs)

So arguably gunships (spiders/wbs/lanc's) using the particular strategy of lining is a greater or equal cause to a weasel presence. It also depends on the weasel, a particularly successful or hated player in weasel will cause more people to hunt them.

and the lack of basing function and because of the annoying and overpowered use of the previous settings.

Well i suppose we'll never agree on the annoying and overpowered bit, although I do think that Spidermages argument has merit in that weasels do indeed have a decent basing function.
Kontrolz> I hate how they added another basing ship
(regarding weasels) (Not entirely accurate quote, but that was the sentiment)
I would have to agree that the levi does not overly affect basing, but it is damn annoying sometimes.

Fluffz: With effort I could take out an unattentive terrier (usually a typekill, its lame but sometimes the only way to get base), or if they are so very good at defending (which usually means your team is crap at attacking and basing is stagnant anyway, some teams could defend the holes and still hold off a prolonged assault but they are not many, if any, if ever seen in pub) A double rocket (1 to get in, 1 to kill them) has about a 50/50 chance of killing the terrier, and more like 80/20 chance of killing a (nonshark) ship of my choice. But rockets cost.

Kolar:
I had a thought about the overall aim of the weasel. Considering that a levi is supposed to be like a rocket launcher, a wb a rifleman, lanc shotgun etc. and weasel is supposed to be a Saboteur/assassin (I'm going with the saboteur aspect)
Perhaps the weasel could get low powered EMP bombs. I realise this would be a problem as imo even red bombs would be too powerful, all I'm talking about is something to blast at an enemy with, to emp them at about 1/2 health (enough so that wb/lanc couldn't fire but terrier, jav and spider, imo the ships that should be best against weasel, can) It would be useful in the disruption tactic of weasel playing, and for hit+run attacks, and also cram breaking in base (although thats more of a minus than a plus for this idea, but some may not think so)

[CloudHelmut]

I like the idea of making the weasel more sniper like, that's why this part of your post:
"take away multifire and bullet duration+speed"
seems out of place Fluffz. Unless you mean by sniper sits on top of his target,fires, then recloaks. Why not give it a good fast single line fire bullet a la WB but slower ship speed with cloaking.

Otherwise he's more like a sapper, a guy who sacrifices himself to make a hole in the line.

[Kolar]

I like your ideas Fluffz. I think it could still go without a rocket but a repel would be nice if it was slower. I agree that specificially the cloaking and stealth ability wasn't the problem yet on the entire public system it was making things unstable.

[Fluffz]

there, ill give u a reason. the new cloaker is boring and it is not good for anything. the only thing it can do is slip trough a fr hole and suicide on a random ship. if you would shoot trough that hole with a jav you would have killed more. the cloak isnt even needed, even less since it drains energy. this is the main use of this ship, it has no actual functionality anymore. is is more a tiny wb than a tiny cloaker. ppl just play it because its too easy to get a kill or two with every death. and they dont have to go trough the main entrance anymore, so basically you cant defend base against it, it wasnt a good idea to make it small in the first place. oh well...

decrease its speed and rotation, take away multifire and bullet duration+speed, lower its recharge and give it a rocket (and repel) while leaving it tiny, make it the assassin it used to be. make this ship suck in open space and dogfights. but give it the ability to kill the terr. give it a purpose. make it have to plan the only shot it probably gets. as it is now, a weasel can enter the flagroom and spray two shots, gaining two kills. like wtf. the energy draining stealth is not the problem here, its the overall concept of this new weasel.

[Kolar]

"I saw him play Pub for 2 mins as a Spider, lol wtf would he know"


Shit like that is counter productive. You guys can post anything you want under the rules but coop outs "Alright I give up, i'm not going to even listen your your opinion and I still hate you" is not fucking talking about this topic. If you or anyone else can't have enough respect to read, disagree and use this forum for real then you don't deserve to use it. If I've already said something like a Weasel is not a good levi terrier hunters, then use a fucking procedure for responding, not restating your opinion with new fucking words. What you're trying to do is convince me and an entire zone so use some fucking class. Also on this topic (3 pages back) we've already disscuessed why it happened so this is it folks, dont drag it back up.

Upper Staff will always do what they believe to be in the best intentions of the zone and its players. If you're questioning that then you're a tool.

We're not going to agree on tactics or ship fuctions so lets drop it. If a weasel could kill a jav, a levi terrier or anything else you've tagged it as 'doing well' then fine. I can't see it doing it very well or effective enough to impact TW that much at all. With the small number of players not laming in Mid or spawning, I believe this also counts against the idea that it would be used as a population controller or would have a great impact on the zone.




I've never said claoking is lame killing; here are the major points that I've addressed here:

-Being permanentally cloaked is not something that contributes to the stablity of the entire public system (and I've offered some changes to the draining energy issue).
-The use of the previous claoker settings was related to the abnormal number of javs because of the X-Radar ability and the lack of basing function and because of the annoying and overpowered use of the previous settings.



The Levi is a different issue and I believe it does not overly effect basing. If the use of the weasel (the last settings) was as larged and liked by the public players then i'm sure it would not have been changed. This is a case of popularity and what the masses want and i'm sorry but you don't have that for the weasel, or you're not trying hard enough with what you have.

ignore shit, and be generally manipulative

Well that's offensive. I'm giving my opinion here Sarien. You can disagree with me until the end of time but personal attacks are boring as shit and it does not help your issue with the current weasel settings.

This thread is for posting ideas about changing the weasel because one of the smallest and unorganized groups in TW history dislikes the new settings. There's a difference between whining about why, how and who changed it, the older use/arguing over experience when it comes to public playing-and disscussing new settings, giving your opinion on why the current ones do not contribute to publics (with good reason) and how new settings would effect publics. Start posting them because you're doing a bad job convincing me that the new settings are bad in anyway.

[Sarien]

Just a side note, anymore personal attacks and you guys will lose your chance to talk about making the weasel better. I will get a mod to close this shit,

Post what you want within the rules but direct more of this shit at me and this thread will be gone.

Heavens no, not that. Anything but that. After all, I wouldn't want to lose my chance at you ignoring every goddamned word said to you so that you can reply with "Cloaking is lame killing" and "We'll do anything to fix pubs (except fix the lev, because we're hypocrites)".

Do your worst.

However, anybody else, with any juice to consider or take changes that isn't going to give the same runaround over and over, ignore shit, and be generally manipulative, it would be nice to hear from.

[Kolar]

Kolar I really have to catch this sentence here. As such a long standing player as you are(and perhaps other war type games) you really do seem to be failing to have seen the balance that had been around since before these new Weasel settings.

If it was there before the new weasel settings, by removing the effect of the weasel we'll bring that balance back to publics. You have to admit if anything that it was easier to kill under the older settings, now you'll have to use the same methods as every other player of any ship to base or even more basic kill someone. If you love tactics so much there Spidermage then you'll enjoy using the new weasel.

Think of Weasels like a lower predator in nature, maybe even a scavenger if you have to. They were never designed, and never were over powered to be the lead attacker. They were made to be population control(you said yourself that the out burst of javs is in direct correlation to the weakening of the weasel), it's just like in nature.

That, if anything, does not seem to be its function as a basing ship. Population control is not spawning, population control does not make sense when the only ships that it might bring more public players to play, has X-Radar!. The outburst of javs is a long standing problem with any of the 3 settings and even though the last ones did bring more players to use it, they never helped the situation.

Whatever the weasel is eventually used for it will be balanced with basing in publics. I don't believe you or anyone else on this thread has the ability to fairly judge it or judge publics and from the kind of responces to basic war tactics which mean almost nothing in this game when you've got static settings with player ability. In war you have people and machines. If I know that that 30 or so platoon over there can do this much damage then i'm not going to attack or make an offensive attack at X. When we have static abilities in this game it comes down to player skill, knowledge and ability and if you don't see that as something needed for all ships to be balanced, next to having the settings balanced against the other ships, then you've missed the entire point about what Trench Wars is.

Just a side note, anymore personal attacks and you guys will lose your chance to talk about making the weasel better. I will get a mod to close this shit, We've wasted enough bandwidth already on insulting me for having an vaild opinion, posting crap about how you hate staff, long..long posts about how spawners and whiners got the weasel changed and generally adding ridiculous scenarios about the Weasel. Post what you want within the rules but direct more of this shit at me and this thread will be gone. Group think is not something that helps this zone or this forum and it certainly is not helping your argument.

[Spikester]

Weasels suck, enough said. Stop crying every time staff changes stuff.

[Fluffz]

They were made to be population control

because of that i suggest to take away the javs xradar. give it to the lanc. (along with bouncing bullets)