Weasel Nerf'd

[Sarien]

I personally would be willing to trade all of the speed increase from the time when it had a rocket to have cloak and stealth not drain energy. The rotation speed is about right now. I hated the loss of my rocket, but I dealt with it. No big deal.

Even putting everything back like it was exactly when it had the rocket and no X radar, but still small size, still good. But the one of the basic tenets of the ship is that it is a cloaker. It has cloak and stealth to go invisible and cut down on as many dangers to it as possible (except to the half of the ships that have X Radar) because it is an inherently fragile ship.
If you take away that basic tenet then that calls for a basic ship redesign from the ground up, not tweaking, otherwise you end up with a jumble.

[Kolar]

I never said Levi would be a viable basing ship. Both are different things and bring different problems to publics... they have been dealth with and i'm saying that there no little to no connection between the LT population and the use of weasel, now, before ..ever and even now you can still (going on Seriens info here) do everything you could before that mattered when it came to 'annoying' LTs. I still believe this change was focused on making basing better and had nothing to do with spawning WBs. If you're sitting in spawn or spawning you're not playing the game.

If we balance them out in the publics they could be use and previced as a basing ship. I never messaged any Smods or Sysops about it, I posted on here and gave my ideas and believe me, I never knew of the change or how they would be doing it. I'm open to making the ship drain slower but permanently claoking and stealth is not something that helps balance out this ship's settings. I think we could balance out of the smaller Weasel for publics but in the ?go base setting the ability to bypass the intented entrance (without remaking the map to acount and balance this out) would not be fair in a league setting and was only disrupting games there.




This forum is for Staff members to disscuss issues and work out problems and that gives you guys a chance to talk with mostly staffers. Upper Staff does not need to alert the public whenever they're testing new settings or going to be uploading them onto TW. You can use this forum for whatever you want, Tone used it like an idiot but at the same time he was giving his opinion (far too often) about the weasels. If you're the manority on this topic then suggest changes, address the oposition in a professional way on the technical aspect of Trench Wars.. you can even do that now. You can't claim stupidity on this since the weasel and a few others have their settings developed often and with the publics having the stigma about claoking in general, you should be doing something along the lines of what Tone did. You're now on the other side of things, do something about it besides responding to me or acting out like a few spawners or Levi terriers cried for change.


If the propontents of the ship (you, purehatred and others) don't get out of your little 'staff hatred' bout then No, staff isn't going to change it to anything.

I think I've already stated a good reason why the change happened to help out smaller publics. It seems to be a fair trade off, regen with cloak on after a kill. Try taking a radar shot on a full size ship, for that matter try hitting the weasel uncloaked. If you guys want to drain less then you'll probably still have to take another hit on speed or something else.

[deutschpunkrevolte]

:crying: I want my cloak back

[AcidBomber]

Can someone explain in detail what happened to the weasel settings other than the fact it doesnt take energy to cloak?

[CloudHelmut]

Pure Hatred said:
EDIT: Or just whine in an obnoxious way on the forums. That seems to work well around here.

Doesn't seem to be working that well for you. :grin:

I really think you guys should give the new settings a chance and develop a few new strategies. Weasels can still dodge well- they didn't slow their turn rate AFAIK. Don't be so dependent on the cloak to get away - switch up between only using cloak or stealth. Learn to fire your thrust shot better when uncloaked. Like I said before, I rarely cloak when I weasel. I spend a lot of time as a "team player" guarding mid/fr and kill ships of all types- that three way spread is killer in mid crossfire. The energy free cloak was a total crutch.

That said, maybe it could use a little more speed to make the weasel dogfight capable?

[Sarien]

Basing is the primary focus of publics, Weasels are not. If you want to play a weasel then you'll have to deal with the fact that they are not a basing ship and do interfer with basing, it's that simple.
You had your chance to give your suggestions, make proposals and lobby for change just as much as Tone and still do now.

Ok First:
I agree that Basing is the primary focus. The mere fact that you say "they are not a basing ship and do interefere with basing" shows how your bias sits on the issue. Not to mention you were among those that helped get the weasel banned from ?go base. How the shoe is on the other foot now. The weasel can easily be a basing ship, the weasel can be used to kill LT's, and I know this for a fact because I've done both with it. Hell I was doing both with it with the older settings with the rocket.

Second:
"You had your chance to give your suggestions, make proposals and lobby". Ok, yay for specious statements. There was no mention that I saw anywhere around even suggesting that ship six was headed for (yet another) change other than Tone's incessant whining. Which wow, really amazing how all of those topics he made were pretty much a ratio of 4:1 telling him to get the hell over himself.

In fact, it was pretty safe to assume that ship six wasn't going to hit another immediate change, since it had been tuned up not long ago.

And Mythrandir says that players don't know what's good for them.
Nothing like making a ship have to stay visible on radar or visible to the eye, when it has so little energy as to take ONE level two bullet to kill it. (All of which yellow bullets in the game happen to be in very wide spread shots, so easy enough to just watch radar and kaboom. You've turned ship six into a feeder ship. Congratulations.)
I say that the people tinkering with the settings can't see consequences of their actions. There's two technical reasons in this thread. There's a dozen more, easily.

[PH]

Basing is the primary focus of publics, Weasels are not. If you want to play a weasel then you'll have to deal with the fact that they are not a basing ship and do interfer with basing, it's that simple. Gimping them or bring them into basing is the only way you'll get anything changed so if you don't wanna do something about it then don't expect it to be going anywhere fast.

So by crippling the Weasel and continuing to feed the Leviathan steroids, you're insinuating that Leviathans are more viable basing ships than Weasels, which is complete bullshit.

Excuse me if I didn't gather up every Weasel player and say "Look, guys, if you don't start basing they're gonna fuck this ship up beyond all repair." I did what I could to use it as a basing ship, and I did so with great effect as a team player, which is more than I can say for the pussy spawners that got their way by whining louder than everyone else. If I felt like adjusting I could probably still base with the ship, but the point is I shouldn't have to adjust simply because a few whiny spawners and assholes who don't want to communicate with their team don't like the fact that they can be killed by something they can't see in their precious Warbird. Boo fucking hoo. Learn to help your team instead of following your own agenda which consists of spawning like a bitch.

EDIT: Or just whine in an obnoxious way on the forums. That seems to work well around here.

EDIT 2: j=t, maybe I'm just unfortunate enough to get stuck with the shithead Javelins every time, but the minute the base Terr says "x roof" they're all blindly unloading bombs and killing each other. Now, as a gimmick ship, it's pointless for the average Weasel to go anywhere near base, yet the Javelins continue to blind bomb with no enemies in sight and mow teammates down like a Mack truck. And this isn't a bigger problem than a small, slow ship that poses little to no threat to a team with good communication and logic? Oh, okay.

[Noah]

I think that the terr should have L3 bombs and cloak

[Kolar]

If all that a Weasel can do is annoy levi terriers then I don't see the difference in going back or even reverting to bigger size + settings. I still can't see this ship being an effective anti-LT hunter. Being perminentally cloak isn't needed to do this.


Players may do what they like in the public arenas, Staff and the player base will continue to develop the core of this game which is basing within the public arenas. Pulling the the levi terrier out of all the arenas would seriously damage the zone because of its popularity (and no that isn't the same for the weasel, I haven't seen people giving up on TW because of this). Players can figure out if they like to sit around and base, duel, pub or just do sub arenas. The basing comunity as well as the dueling comunity as far as I know hasn't been suffering from player drops.

I thought the new settings would make you guys happy even though the method of reducing its power would be by making you guys think more and actually do some work to get a kill. By droping stealth after getting a kill it is easy to dodge and escape through one of the base holes or after burn away. Yes it isn't as easy as recloaking, dodge.. kill but it still is playable and still allows you guys to annoy the fuck out of the publics.



Edit: Maybe revert the size, reduce the speed but not the rotation, drain it a little slower for both cloak and stealth but allow regen for one of the two. Lets drop the whole arugment about what the zone is, what does what, who pubs ect ect.. Basing is the primary focus of publics, Weasels are not. If you want to play a weasel then you'll have to deal with the fact that they are not a basing ship and do interfer with basing, it's that simple. Gimping them or bring them into basing is the only way you'll get anything changed so if you don't wanna do something about it then don't expect it to be going anywhere fast. I know you guys are really taking this personal but Tone is not the only one left of center on this issue, not that it matters with the system of command in this zone but you're not the majority. You had your chance to give your suggestions, make proposals and lobby for change just as much as Tone and still do now. The worst thing you could be doing right now is aruging with me over what the fucking meaning of Trenchwars is at 5:30 in the morning.

[Sarien]

But, why don't we just make something of use out of it. Like, remove the cloaking options, give it a lvl 2 bullet (yellow - 2 hit killers) and make it faster, not some godly speed, but enough so it can get out of its own way.

It's not a lanc, and shouldn't be made into a poor man's one.

1:how did Weasels keep the levi terrier population down or in check?
2:What do Team killing javs have to do with the Weasels? if there is no connection why mention it here?

1: By both hunting and aggravating greening leviathans to annoy them out of that ship, and also when attached, using small size and through the base shortcuts to keep pressure on an LT where only the terrier can see you, and depending on the X pilot, having a good chance at killing it as well. LT's being creatures that annoy instead of fighting, might be moving lots, but just moving between shot locations is all.
2: He mentioned it quite obviously that if staff was going to work on problems in public arenas there are vastly larger problems than this that needs attention.

pub is around for reasons other than basing. i could be wrong, cuz i don't intend to speak for the designers, but if you want strictly leet basing, there's already an arena for that. there's also an arena for wb's who are hardcore snipers. pub is like...a recreational league. people who aren't super serious and just want to have fun improving their wb elim skills without having to wait for an elim to start shouldn't have to worry about the bottom feeder x's who just trying and piss people off.

Warbirds flying around spawn and just taking potshots shouldn't have to worry about "bottom feeder X's" who are just trying to piss people off? But they should have to worry about LT's that exist only to piss people off, and the basers should have to worry about these same warbirds who are taking potshots at anything (including sharks heading for the base) so they can get a kill in their score, right? Warbirds flying around the spawn shouldn't get some sort of special exemption from the annoying things in life.

Next.. pubs aren't just for basing. Pubs should reflect all of the trench wars leagues thrown into a public arena, so that players in the publics can develop these playing styles, find what they like, head to the specialized arenas and leagues from there. But they aren't. What league is the leviathan allowed in, again?

This is not an overpowered versus underpowered argument. That argument ceases to be a functional one the moment you look at the facts. The old weasel was deemed underpowered, so they gave it a power boost. Now they say it's overpowered. Rather than head back in the old direction to find a happy medium, they went in a new direction entirely. That smacks to me of someone with the inherent problem of believing "cloaking is lame".

I think they beefed up the ship, and that made a lot more people start playing it, and someone somewhere decided that having a powerful weasel was fine. Having a popular weasel, was not.

The fact that the recent loudest anti weasel voice (Tone) happens to LT?
Not a shock in the slightest. Irony though, don't you love it?

By the way: If you want to get technical? The reason you've fucked it in such a hard way, is that by taking energy to cloak and stealth, when the ship fires and tries to get away to regen (because firing leaves it in such a perilously weak energy position) it's easily followed by watching radar, and tossing a bomb in that general direction, firing there, or if it tries to use both, it's going to run out of energy and go completely vis, with zero energy and fast. That's one example among dozens really.

EDIT: Oh, and Kolar. I routinely killed LT's with X. Not even the latest X. The older versions too. It is not as difficult as you would imagine, and have done it while they had X-radar on, and knew for a fact I was after them.

[Kolar]

Basing has always been the heart of TW, but from the looks of things staff is trying to push it to the back burner so spawners can have their field day in the pubs, and as a result a lot of players are sorely disappointed and have been left scratching their heads trying to figure out what went wrong here.

I'm going to bed, this thread is making me hallucinate. I'm seeing Weasels everywhere I look.

Spawning is not important and does not effect basing in the public arenas. It will always be in this zone until staff changes out to safe zone spawning. The weasel would not be fast enough to get a LT and it would be seen. The only way you could have is if you got one that came right at you without X-Radar on. Not one point you've made makes any sense at all.

[PH]

I really don't understand Pure Hatred, why you complain about javs but think everyone should have sucked it up about the weasel. Maybe there should be some changes to the jav? Or are you willing to live with it because it's in some Trench Wars Bible?

As you stated, the average pub Javelin is not experienced enough to make his shots go where he wants them to go on a regular basis. Should he be punished because of that? I don't think so. Dealing with Weasels is a learning experience for a Javelin, and with time he will learn when to use bullets instead of bombs, and how to use both more effectively. This is, of course, assuming his teammates don't scream "fuk u newbie" for every little mistake. This is liable to piss him off and turn him into one of the problematic Javelins that I always seem to get stuck with. Pub players don't learn anything except "ez", "sry" and "noob" with these settings, and the Javelin is not to blame, but its use does need to be limited if players get out of control with it.

So are you complaining that the weasels were changed or that noone made YOUR suggested changes? I would agree that TK'ing javs are a bit of a problem. I've watched one moron sitting in the FR trying to make a shot- hits it maybe 3/10 and racks up at least 5 TKs. The obvious thing I suppose would be to weaken the area effect damage. I guess it would be sacrilege to take out the bounce - maybe in the pubs we could make the javs green up to get the bounce bomb? That way newbs may never even find out about it.

I don't like the changes. That said, I'm not complaining, I'm just trying to lay the situation out so I can figure out why the hell staff gave in and changed something that wasn't even causing a problem among basers. Hell, if they were going to change it the least they could do was not make it a gimmick ship. It's practically unusable for the average pubber now, and maybe I'm in the minority but I dislike having to run a gauntlet of spawning WB's every time I try to get to base. They're free to sit there and camp all day. No team coordination necessary, just point and shoot. "Fair and balanced" play at its finest.. mm hmm. I'm still baffled as to how they figure pub freq Weasels were more detrimental to basing than two dicks on a priv freq unloading blue bombs into the FR and knocking the shit out of people. If people got fed up with an LT, they hunted it, so why not let the Weasel just get hunted and leave the settings alone? Hunting Weasels was just as much "a part of the game" as hunting LT's. Now you might as well be hunting a crippled man in a wheelchair. The ship is useless. My suggestion is bring back the big Weasel or just remove the ship entirely, because it's wasting space in this form.

Get rid of pub settings- leave levs in. To calm dickhead solo-lt's/javs, take out private channels and kick anyone who gets too many TKs/5 minutes. I'm not sure how we would insulate sharks from this rule but honestly some sharks really are dumb about mine placement too.

To keep the pubs "useful" registered squad leaders/assistants could perhaps still be allowed to create private teams for practice and recruiting.

PS-I've always found a WB was best for LT hunting. Shift in and snap the shot. Experience LTs drivers check their x-radar alot and a single red hit means the weasel has to either run away or uncloak into a real dogfight.

L3 bombs have no place in TW basing. None. The FR is too small and cramped.

I have no problem with private frequencies, as long as the fat blue ship is not on any of them. In fact, once in a while I find it fun to gather two or three friends on a priv freq and conquer the FR.

And the WB may be the most effective LT-hunting ship for a lot of players, but I've downed many with a Weasel. Almost all LT drivers will toggle their X-Radar on and off, and I've seen enough of them in action to know when most of them will commence this toggling. This is when, with the old settings, I would launch a sneak attack that the Terrier could only blame himself for not avoiding. Now if I want to hunt LT's I have to dogfight from the get-go.

As I said, the legitimate Weasel players are being punished because a lot of people, in ALL ships, don't understand that there's a base on the north side of the map, and that the main objective is to conquer and keep this base. Duelers have other arenas that specifically cater to them, so I don't understand why they loiter in the pubs. Basing has always been the heart of TW, but from the looks of things staff is trying to push it to the back burner so spawners can have their field day in the pubs, and as a result a lot of players are sorely disappointed and have been left scratching their heads trying to figure out what went wrong here.

I'm going to bed, this thread is making me hallucinate. I'm seeing Weasels everywhere I look.

[Troll King]

pub is around for reasons other than basing. i could be wrong, cuz i don't intend to speak for the designers, but if you want strictly leet basing, there's already an arena for that. there's also an arena for wb's who are hardcore snipers. pub is like...a recreational league. people who aren't super serious and just want to have fun improving their wb elim skills without having to wait for an elim to start shouldn't have to worry about the bottom feeder x's who just trying and piss people off.

i mean, you make my point right there....if it's only affecting the lowest common denominator, it's no problem. so it should be no problem giving the x more balance so the newby lamers can't abuse it.

Pub may be around for more than basing, but the primary focus should still be basing because that's what the zone is designed around. It's in the original settings, it's in the zone description, it's in the map design. Any changes that are made in pubs should thus keep basing in mind first, and any other play styles should come secondary. Basing is the primary aspect of this zone. Anyone denying that is ignoring the evidence.

The excuse that cloakers negatively affect spawners and warbirds can also be used to say that spawner warbirds negatively affect basing. I am more likely to get spawnkilled by a warbird than I spawned by a cloaker. People thought that the cloakers posed a big problem? For the very same reasons, I can say that warbirds pose an even bigger one.

If you're going to say weasels should be changed so that they don't bother those warbirds because pub is recreational, then I can also use the same argument to say that weasels don't need changing in the first place, "because it's recreational." Warbirds don't like the cloakers? It doesn't matter "because it's recreational". The same arguments can be used repeatedly, it just depends on where you want to draw the line. And if the line has to be drawn anywhere, it has to be drawn with basing first and foremost.

Trench Wars has always catered to the lowest common denominator, and that's why it's the largest zone in SS. And I'm not saying that's a good thing. While many might initially say that's a good sign, if you look deeper, you'll see that it's also the source of the biggest problems in this zone. Too many newbies? New talent isn't developing enough? People have too much attitude? All of this zones flaws exist because the zone allows them to exist.

[Saturn V]

pub is around for reasons other than basing ... but if you want strictly leet basing, there's already an arena for that.

True, but it seems the intent of purepub is for basing. Now, being someone who doesn't play a whole lot (like myself), the chance of getting to play in ?go base is very, very slim. And I'm not going to sit in ?go base all day hoping to get picked just so I can play once for 10 to 20 minutes.

[Kolar]

I am one of the weasels who does that- sneaks into base and essentially sows dissension. I occasionally am able to get a terrier unawares, half the time I get killed by a jav bomb (weasels are so weak a jav bomb even near them kills), half of the time which is a tk (But I know I'm going to get tked, its usually hitting an enemy in base anyway), the rest of the time I fire off a shot, kill a spider or wb, and everyone in base comes after me. What this does is lures them away from defending the entrance ergo allowing my team to get in.
I don't see how taking out the base terrier destabilises the pub. It adds to the pressure, sure, but it also gives the other team a way to get into base and take the fight into flagroom. It stops the campers camping, cos they've got to move about.

The weasel was making the public unstable. If we were playing a game having fun and I picked up a brick and hit you with it, would you continue playing or attack me? It's simple ToT: You wouldn't care to continue playing if your chances were deminished by an overpowering ability or if you were pissed off. Shifting the balance of control is fine but to do that you need an equal playing feild since this game is based on player skill and ability. Pubbing is for basing, the rules, settings and everything staff puts into it is for that reason.



Having an unlimited cloak and stealth ability is not something that greatly effects any persons ability to play and get a decent amount of kills as a Weasel (I know that you and the forum goers/weasel users go without the cloak most of the time). At any given time a WB, spider, lanc can get 1-3 kills per death and if you don't see that as normal then maybe you should try something else for a bit. I think this update was done because outside of the pure pubs TW is dying. Without some means of defense smaller groups could not defend against this ship. If a small group of people, few wbs..spiders those kinds of ships can't control the flag and are only getting cloaked to death then they will not be sticking around to setup a terrier ect.. In these arenas you end up with nothing but spawning, wbduels around the safes and massive amounts of LTs. All of this negitive non basing crap stiffles real pubbing, we're asking you to deal with some variables and fair restrictions when using this ship so that the enjoyment of the entire arena, and not only your own is kept.

Edit: I'm pretty much going to respond to all the poor ideas about how the publics should be running, what they're there for and how the weasel effects the publics... SO why not throw some alternatives down and give up on this crap. In the end your opinion really doesn't matter, upper staff is going to keep it this way or change it further out of your favor Pure, reguardless of all the crying to revert back so why not at least do something productive, maybe they will notice your post.