An end of an Era

[Lemmin]

Oh dear, not again

This discussion seems to happen every few months. Let me state my position first: please leave pure pubs in place. If they go away, eventually so will I, they are the only thing I play for any more.

Re the decline of pubs in general: People talk about "the good old days" and yes, I can remember them. The days when you based, and swapped hints, and helped people out, and strove to get a pair of levis in flag room to help defend. Those days are gone though, and I think its for several reasons. Firstly, the increasing automation in TW has made it possible to open up dedicated arenas for basing, dueling etc - all the things people used to do in pubs. By specialising into new arenas, you've drawn people out of the pubs where they were kind of forced to base, even if it was just because they were on a team and shooting at other people as they spawn, and therefore its drained the pub community. Secondly, LevTerrs moved in on the already depleted pub community, and since there was a worse LT to player ratio, they became more of a nuisance. Also, LTs used to be killable - not easy, but a sense of achievement, but in the last few years this has become harder. A lot of the terriers are using cheats (I know this for a fact) to increase their lag, and the design of the current base contributes to them being able to "hit and run".

To a certain extent I agree that private freqs are almost as much of a problem as LTs are, however I've seen plenty of LTs on pub freqs, happily teamkilling, so I'd suggest that restricting private freqs is likely to increase the teamkilling problem (and its already enough of a problem even in pure pubs with the javs).

At this point I'd like to say that I don't have a problem with Levis, just with LTs. Levs used to be a valuable and important part of basing "back in the day" and I'd like to see them back, if we can find some way to stop them becoming a parasitic nuisance, simply taking advantage of the pub game to get cheap kills.

One of my main issues with allowing LTs into pubs is that they WILL put off newcomers. Place yourself in the shoes of someone new to the game, who lands in pub 0. They might have read a guide or something, so have a vague idea they should get into the base and try and take the flag. They get to mid and BOOM they are blown away by a blue bomb from outside. After this happens a few times they go and try and kill the LT, but instead it runs away, warps away, or bombs them, and then taunts them. Once they realise there is an effectively unkillable, super-fast, super-powerfull player who takes pleasure in calling them "n00b" how long are they going to stick around? Most online games have a "kindergarden" type area where new players are protected from those with better stats, more experience or whatever. By dropping new players into an impure pub0 you are making them face LTs without any experience or knowledge of how to deal with them, and before they have come to see the joys of the game.

Some suggestions, if you really must change the current system:

* Stop ships from staying attached to terrs. For the purposes of the pub game, no ship needs to stay attached, just attach briefly. This would allow levis into the flag room as defenders, and into the mid as attackers, but would prevent LTing.
* Allow priv freqs, but don't allow levs onto them. That way a squad or some friends can still try and take the base, or you can priv freq to duel or whatever, you just can't priv freq for LTs
* Definately tell people that there are different types of arena available. Have the bot PM people when they enter to tell them how to get to a different type of arena, and maybe even before the start of timed games ("For a non-timed game, with all ship types and priv freqs allowed, type ?go 44 now!")
* Promote a degree of friendliness and "niceness" in pubs - theres a lot of insults, swearing, shouting and verbal bullying, which tends to put even me off. Its certainly going to put off your average new player! (yah, I know its the same in the rest of the zone - doesn't mean it should be tolerated there either).
* If you want to allow LTing back in a limited way, consider a change of map. Something like fatbase, with its bigger mid and double-thickness walls, would limit their effectiveness (as well as making the pub game much more fun - its a much more interesting map to play).

I'm not going to suggest removing the automated game arenas - although they are what has reduced the pub population, removing them isn't going to help. Its like saying "things were better before television, people talked more" - would you really like to ban television? Knowing that television existed, would people be happy without it?

BTW Moot, I'm really unhappy that you removed pure pubs for a while just to make some kind of point. Whatever that point was totally passed me by, you shouldn't need to resort to that sort of tactic.

LEM

[Ephemeral]

What the hell, stick to the topic... btw ephemeral you create your own hell, its not me, its you ... besides you spend all your time in jav dual anyway.

First, the topic is what is wrong with TW and things to make it better, so you are wrong. Second, YOU are one of the things that has been wrong with TW. Third, I dont think I have ever even been in Jav duel, so you are wrong again. Fourth, the only 'hell' that has been created is when you always leave political PMs for everyone, so you are wrong again.

Instead of coming in here and thnking that anyone is going to give your opinion any weight at all. You should instead spend some time considering the amount of people you have turned off of TW due to your constant political ramblings in pub chats and PMs. You have always had the chance to go to a private arena and others who wish to talk politics can sit with you and BS. But instead you FORCED your political opinions into the pubs and on others. You have lost respect and lost TW players.

[spinsanity]

Lemmin and Ephemeral

Ephemeral.. again, stick to the topic at hand, but i'll add you told me once that not only do you buy into republican propagnada you also produce it.. i can see why u dont like getting slapped in the face by realiety:fear:.

Lemmin for someone on the other side of the fence at least you sorta have a few good points some I don't agree with at all. The biggest deal is LT's cheat.. this isn't a LT problem its a cheating problem, and its rare at best.. and I should know.

As far as new people getting blown away... well ITS TRUE, but they learn and I don't see a problem with that... everyone has to go sometime.

As far as you wanting to keep pure pubs but you don't have a problem levs.. would you be opposed to having levs/lts in pure basing or league games?

As far as taking away pure pubs to make a point, I am sure that is not what happned, but It may have been too much of a shock to the system, I still don't see why people that like this style of play don't go to the hosted pure basing zones.. they are there 24/7.. maybe there should of been some effort to tell people to start going there more often first.. and I still find it a nice solution to inform people to go there.. there is no need to quit because of no pure pubs, they has ALWAYS BEEN pure basing and still is.

Sure lets make LT's easier to kill, but lets not make terrs slower or where they can't keep people on them, there has to be other solutions.. something that occured to me is if there are timed games, then when that game is over, lt's have to start over again.

And it seems that if there is a common theme that most people can agree on is that a over abundance of priv freqs seems to be a problem... I have played many times on priv freqs and have seen that when there are too many it does hurt the game. And a wider observation is that when you have too many pros going off on their own.. either to priv freqs or to specialized zones... when this happens too often, poor game play results.

[Dr. Snyder]

How about instead of fucking with the pubs, you figure out a way to better SS as a whole because in all honesty it appears todays TW players are either too tired, too newbie, or too stupid to be important to this zone. Barring any real innovation, anything this zone does is just slowing the bleeding down.
We care far too much about what our pubs look like when they are shrinking at alarming rates. I think pure pubs started the problem but regardless it looks like the LTers have died out so why doesn't anyone come up with an idea soley based on bring the newbs to this game. Fuck the vets this zone is dying cause people who have been playing to long can't stand change. This zone has changed shit drastically before and its time we really sit down and consider a hail mary to either get it back up or let it die. Because this zone is some teri shivo shit right now and I gots no problem with knifing babies but leave the bitch alone.

[Lemmin]

Please note that there is a difference between basing and pubbing. The game in pub is a much more freeform game, with less pressure and more fun. A timed basing game is not the same thing. Throughout my previous post I tried to use the term "pub game" rather than "basing" to differentiate between them.

I agree people have to go BOOM at some point, but if they are being blown away by an unkillable levterr they can't get any revenge on, they are going to get disheartened and give up.

Since I don't play the formal timed basing games or leagues, I don't care whether you let Levs or LTs into them - just keep my pubs pure!

When it comes down to it, LTs are not a viable shiptype on their own. You can't realistically have an LT vs LT duel, as you can with (almost) every other ship type, therefore they are a purely parasitic creation - they need other people who aren't LTing in order to be any fun. They are having fun at the expense of other people, and I can't see why this should be tolerated.

I didn't mention timed games in my previous post because frankly I don't care about them too much. When it existed, I used to play a lot in the untimed pure pub - to my mind, this was the closest pubs have been to "the good old days" for years, it encouraged teamwork, layered long-term defense and allowed a variety of activities (dueling, basing, fighting in the tubes etc) which you can't do in a timed pub because its all over before those things have a chance to develop.

I'd like to see a pub that included levs, didn't include LTs, and wasn't timed - that would be getting back to the sort of game that originally sucked me into TW 8 years ago.

LEM

[spinsanity]

lem and Dr. Snyder

Now, I am not big on timed games for the same reasons as you..
But I can tell you sure don't LT much... u can indeed battle LT vs LT, happens all the time, also, if your terr lags, trust me, its not a good thing at all.

The good ol days DID include LTs, but back then people knew how to stop them, they are still around rook911 had a inspired shot that took me out just today. And I can tell you that being lev isn't just easy killing, you know how many times we get spawned? heh

The reason I am not making a diff between pure pubs and basing is because I see no difference between pure basing, hosted basing zones and league games.. most are timed, all ban levs, and for the last year there has only been 1 regulation pub (sometimes none).

But we do need to have more people in pubs, and levs and lts should be premitten in all pubs (and heck also league games, I never understood why not levs in league)... if all the squads and pros goto specialized zones all the time, then you will have these problems. Remember cheating is a cheating issue, and tks are a tking issue. Bad levs are bad levs, bad javs are bad javs and bad sharks are bad sharks.. and cheaters are cheaters.

The only thing that seems to be a good solution would be to limit priv freqs, or maybe give some other ship some special advantage over LTs that doesn't exist now.. but I sure can't think of any, except maybe easier anti-warp (maybe affecting only terrs with levs), or something novel like bricks... I am all for making the game more interesting, and I have no problem making things harder on us LTs... just so long as we can play in more than one zone and we will always have that big ol blue bomb .

Dr. Snyder.. amen BTW what do you think of Xog's deal? While changing the map may seem a little off topic, it does relate.

[Ajant]

OK, I tried to read all the posts, and there are some good opinions there, so I will add mine. Can't believe I actually applied to hated forums, but situation requires it.
In my opinion, pure pubs were mistake and are in certain degree responsible for decline in numbers of players. Maybe not the biggest reason, but they are certainly to blame for part of the damage.
How to better things?
1. bring back timer, there seems to be consensus that it was good thing as it introduced a goal in the game. Giving anti to spiders in winning team is also good, as maybe more people will use spider and not jav and they will help killing any LT that might be around.
2. NO warping in base for levs! No need to create massacre at start of every round.
3. NO changing of frequency in safe. In order to change freq you must spec and return on another freq. This will stop easy greening of levs in safe by their teammates and assure that people with some experience play lev. I can't imagine new players greening in lev on their own.
4. Limit the allowed number of levs and javs per frequency. This can be tested, but 2, max 3 levs should be ok.
5. YES to shipban for lev that team kills 5 times (or some other amount). 30 min ban for that shipwould do and it would also allow others to try levs. This will also make lev more aware of need to look where his teammates are before firing and it will limit "blind" fire from sides of base. Maybe it will even force LT to actually get inside the base.
6. NO private freq (i love those, but in all this years of LTing I saw pubs die every time when private freq becomes 2 strong), LT or no LT strong priv freq kills the pub or at least basing in the pub. It would be ok to allow single player priv freq for people who like to duel in pub or fight alone, because I dont think it will hurt basing and team play in pub a lot. There is a catch here. There are players who have some brain damage and feel they must tk LT on their freq. Those were main reason why I eventually had to go on priv freq every time I LTed. How to fight those, I don't really know.
In my opinion priv freq are main reason for pub to stop fighting for flag, not LTs. Besides, jav teamkills more then any LT.
7. Make reduction in points acquired when killing as lev. This will make it difficult for lev to ?buy his greening. Or just make things more expensive to buy if in lev. I am sure that can be done.
8. Make all the pubs same, because that is their purpose. Pure pub is not really pub since lev is not there.
That's about it. B)

[spinsanity]

Ajant

Ajant, I in agreement, except for timed games which I am 100% undecided about (I could go either way, good amount of pro and cons and none win me over.. but hay lets have a timed game weekend and see). Only one I am not big on is #4 since a team will loose its ass if they go all jav and lev anyway.. problem takes care of itself.

[Ajant]

Ajant, I in agreement, except for timed games which I am 100% undecided about (I could go either way, good amount of pro and cons and none win me over.. but hay lets have a timed game weekend and see). Only one I am not big on is #4 since a team will loose its ass if they go all jav and lev anyway.. problem takes care of itself.

Unfortunatelly, new people love jav and don't really care about team at all. You can have 7,8 javs and they just bomb entrance without thinking at all, and don't really care about team effort to get flag. That's why I support limiting number of javs and levs in game. Or make them available to more experienced players only (based on usage or date first played or w/e).
Who am I to decide anyway? :fear: Just suggestions

[spinsanity]

ajant

Ajant, ok
Well, hopefully some consistant changes can be made, and pub population will come back a little. I just hate having only one regular pub, and I am not happy with only 2.

[Mootland Farmer]

BTW Moot, I'm really unhappy that you removed pure pubs for a while just to make some kind of point. Whatever that point was totally passed me by, you shouldn't need to resort to that sort of tactic. By Lemmin

I didn't do such a thing. Please read carefully.

[Clownboy56]

I started way back in 2003. Pure pub did not exist then. Levis bullets were lethal on 1 hit, and levis had no repels. There were usually 4-5 decently filled pubs as well.

I initially liked playing the levi. I used to love the challenge to make it in the safe, to the roof, or to flag room without a terr. That could be frustrating at times do the fact everyone was out to get levis.

I miss the days of when you could have an active base game going with a levi in the flag room. Eventually the other frequency would penetrate the flag room and kill the levi. That was so long ago I would have forgotten about it, had it not been mentioned in this thread.

For the longest time, I was too stupid to realize the flag was the objective of the base. Although I knew obtaining control of the flag room was a motive, I thought the flag was a fancy useless graphic. Regardless of that, I still had fun in levi and dogfighting.

The days went by and I became more skilled at LTing, learning the shots and ways to avoid being hunted and killed. I did play base, just not as much. When playing base, I would get bombed a few times, and learn to stay away from the common bombing zones. It's kind of like when you touch the hot stove, you burn yourself. You learn to avoid burning yourself.

Then Mr Pure Pub came, and there was no point to LTing. If the arena allowed levis, the base was deserted. I then started playing warbird in the spawn.

Now these days, still playing warbird, it's annoying to open TW and find 1 arena, which is pure pub. All the players are in the base and there is no one to dogfight, and elim, duel, twdd, wbelim and tourny are empty.


Not that you cared about my lifestory, but it may have just a little relevance. All in all, I would like to see levis allowed in all pubs. The timer activated in the top 1 or 2 arenas, and no warping at beginning of the round. Someone had a good idea of giving the winning frequencies spiders antiwarp, I think this is a very plausible idea in the settings I suggested. I think levis should not have repels, because I seemed to do just fine back when they didn't.

[Dabram]

i agree with ajant, a limit on javs and levs, and less tolerance vs teamkilling would be nice (a levi should even get banned for several hours or so for teamkilling 5+ times, and a jav should just be automatically shipchanged to wb after 5+ tks or so, this also makes it well possible for others to jav, and when you're in a jav you'll be far more careful with where you're shooting at)..

also i've always been for making it more difficult to lev-terr / easier to defend yourself vs lev-terrs than just taking the easy road and getting rid of levis completely (it makes no sense as they've always been a part of the pub)
so i'd say give antiwarp and x-radar to ships like spider and (maybe) lancaster. get rid of the x-radar from the jav, this just to try and get more people in a ship (spiders) that leads to more teamplay instead of the jav which is too often used as an anti-teamship (half a team just bombing away in their javs, only making it more difficult to defend flagroom or get into flagroom)..

[Ephemeral]

Ephemeral.. again, stick to the topic at hand, but i'll add you told me once that not only do you buy into republican propagnada you also produce it.. i can see why u dont like getting slapped in the face by realiety.

Wrong again. Now go slow and try to actually read/understand this, the thread is about changing/improving TW. My opinion is that you leaving TW, or at least stopping your inane cut and paste political diatribe, will improve TW. Can you understand this? Thread about TW improvement, my opinion about improving TW.

Instead of dodging the legitimacy of the point and redirecting it to your political agenda, (btw, I am not a Republican, so you are wrong again) try telling us about how your political spamming has NOT hurt TW.

[Zeebu]

i play pure pubs from time to time now because theyre kinda fun. i sound anti-lev but really, im not. give me a way to be in the base attack/defending the flag room and not be utterly disrupted by the LT's

actually, is there a way to not allow the levs to shoot bombs when attached? if you could do that, i would never have another complaint. the reason levs are so annoying is that theyre attached to a ter and you cant base and kill an LT at the same time. you cant leave base for a few seconds shoot a lev in a wb and make it back in before fr is lost.

put levs in pure pub with today's settings, and just dont allow levs to shoot while attached. all tk rules apply maybe allow more tk's for the lev but make the punishment harsher (get out of lev and have a timer set for 2 hours to not be able to play it or something) this still allows a very watered down version of lting which would be to attach, have the ter fly to the spot to shoot, detach fire recharge then reattach. this allows for big bombs and big booms, but easier to kill them when it happens. this would promote teaming wiht the levs, levs say 'firing' or something and all their team knows to try to move then a bunch of blue dots shit shitfucked.

add levs if they cant shoot bombs when attached, that would actually be fun

=)