Spacebux: Why Spacebux is Broken, and Why It's Killing the Zone (WARNING: LONG ESSAY)

[Burnt]

Spacebux is good for the zone I think but there should be some changes. Full charges and Bursts are undervalued, should cost about 300-400 each. Pack would need to be changed as well to reflect these changes. Shields are undervalued, should be priced around 4000. Super should be 2500. Thors 5000. Epidemic 7500. nukebase and baseblast 10000. Superlev 5000. All Specials as well as thors, shields and super should have a combined 5 minute cooldown (ie you use a thor it takes 5 minutes to use shield, nukebase, thor etc.)

[Supreme]

or take two zeroes off income instead, as intended by the creators
and stop handing out 100k for winning hunt or something dumb

Little late for that

[Pearl Jam]

Question: What is the conversion rate of Spacebux to the following other forms of currency?

- Actual Space cash (let me be clear: it's from space)
- Those McDonald's Monopoly game peel off stickers (Note: Most are expired)
- Dominican Republic Pesos
- $10 Applebee's Gift Certificate

Please advise - this is urgent.

[MegamanEXE]

First off, "uber-items" shouldn't be a problem. If you think it's that hard to kill an LT, then you're doing something wrong. Thors, anti-warp, slowdowns, roof turrets, blindness, as well as each ships abilities: cloaking (can be helpful), port-trapping, mines, and of course simple bullets and prox bombs will do. Levi-terrs aren't hard to kill if you are can aim and don't give up after they warp. If someone mega-warps you, then hopefully your terrier has quick enough reflexes to warp back before he is sucked into the wormhole (after that, of course, he should warp right back to the flag room). Then your team would hit F7 and attach back to the fore-mentioned terrier in flag room, and the basing would continue for another hour until that player buys another megawarp. Even if the terrier dies during the megawarp, bomblast, nukebase, or superlevi, it shouldn't be a big deal. The trek from spawn to flag room isn't far -I can get to the flag in under 30 seconds in a slow-poke weasel- again, not a problem. None of these "uber-items" carry any weight: if a team can only take the base by warping the other team to the low spawn area, then they probably can't hold the base for 3 minutes either.

1. LTs can buy immunity to slowdown, blindness etc. plus warp out of a problem like that and immediately buy another port.

2. The amount of money spent on thors, roofturret, slowdown, and blindness in order to ATTEMPT to take down an LT is generally far more than the amount a typical LT will spend buying superlev and ports.

3. It's much harder to kill an LT when it has Warbirds defending it.

4. LTs are generally much more skilled at flying and dodging than the pub randoms I could "recruit" to kill an LT. The skill + power difference is simply too much for pub randoms to fight. Theoretically, yes, LTs would be easy to kill, but I don't think many people in pub understand how to kill them. Furthermore, like I said in my OP, dedicating so many resources to killing the LT hurts the pub freq's basing effort. So you can either let the LT go free, which kills basing, or try and fight it, which also kills basing (at least for the team trying to kill the LT.)

5. About terrs warping after megawarp, again, it's possible in theory, but I don't think many people know how to counter it. It also doesn't change the fact that it interrupts the normal flow of a basing game, which leads into my next point...

6. The flight from spawn back to base after nukebase, megawarp, deaths to epidemic, etc. isn't the problem. The problem is that a losing team that does not have control of the base can COMPLETELY clear the base at once and set up defences while the other team is recovering. In other words, yes it's POSSIBLE to recover quickly from an Uberitem attack, but it doesn't change the fact that the team that used it suddenly has the base AND has set up defenses to stop you from getting inside again.

7. "if a team can only take the base by warping the other team to the low spawn area, then they probably can't hold the base for 3 minutes either." Well yes, but that's only if the team using the items is greatly inferior. I think that the pub freqs are much more balanced than the current situation would make people believe. The real problem isn't allowing an inferior freq to win, it's allowing one otherwise equal team to have an unfair advantage over the other.

Anyway, one major problem about LT's that you didn't mention is that only skilled players with the knowledge of how to use LTs effectively become problematic. When the same people (executiona, boobiesyay, etc.) continually buy Superlev and make a profit off of LTing, they can continue to practice their already sharp skills against being hunted... In other words, it's a continuous cycle even in the best of situations: Skilled LTs buy Superlev and make a profit, they finally get hunted down by a mass of people buying many items at a loss, LT buys Superlev again and makes another profit to buy it again when they eventually die, while no one is left with enough money to hunt them down again. That's far worse than the old Levi settings.

That brings me to my next point: what happens if you lose the oh so precious round of pub because someone used these super unfair items against you and your teammates:
WillBy> Yes, i fear the end is near, we lost a round in pub, that's one of three! If we lose another, we lose for good! Game over, bye guys too bad we won't get another chance to beat those cheaters
Round 2 begins in 1:30. (Score: 0 - 1) Type !warp to set warp status, or send !help
WillBy> Oh, right...

Try playing a basing game against Wildblood123 and see if you can make a comeback victory after losing a round... I think you'll see the problem with your statement pretty quickly

Anyway, if someone on the enemy team buys their way to victory in one round, and your team couldn't handle it that last round, it's likely that your team will lose to the same tactics again. Pub freqs don't change very much between rounds.

There's no need to worry about space bucks, they aren't a problem-it spices up pub as much as anything can, and there's no real reason to get rid of them short of convenience for LT hunters and those precious few like MegamanEXE who dislike the system because it's either "below their abilities" or too different from old pub for these guys to adapt...

1. I don't think "spicing up pub" at the expense of a good game of basing or driving away new players is worth it, IMO.

2. It's less about convenience of hunting LTs and more about preventing them from becoming a nigh-unstoppable force without a nigh- "immovable object," so to speak, from stopping them.

?go base, ?go elim... etc

?go base... you mean the ?go base that almost never runs?

?go elim... you mean javelin elim 24/7?

Those arenas don't run as much as they should, really.

Spacebux is good for the zone I think but there should be some changes. Full charges and Bursts are undervalued, should cost about 300-400 each. Pack would need to be changed as well to reflect these changes. Shields are undervalued, should be priced around 4000. Super should be 2500. Thors 5000. Epidemic 7500. nukebase and baseblast 10000. Superlev 5000. All Specials as well as thors, shields and super should have a combined 5 minute cooldown (ie you use a thor it takes 5 minutes to use shield, nukebase, thor etc.)

That isn't going to help when some people have millions of Spacebux. That would actually make the situation worse in two ways:

1. The people with ungodly amounts of Spacebux would simply have more of an advantage over those without, as the "rich" would be able to buy as they always have while the "poor" are unable to easily buy anything to stop them. And, even if you remove the Spacebux from the "rich"...

2. ...Even then, the system favors the skilled over the unskilled, the veterans over the new players. The skilled, with knowledge of piloting, fighting, etc would still be able to buy things easier, while new players without those skills would take even longer to achieve their "rewards." That's if they get them in the first place, without being nukebase'd and blindness'd to death all the time. Again, that's the problem with the principle behind Spacebux, it rewards veterans and punishes new players. In the situation that Continuum is stuck in, is it really a good idea to do that?

[WillBy]

Such a pretty list, at first I thought, "How to argue with this!?" Then I read through it, and noticed a few flaws:

1. You still claim that LTs are a problem and kill basing. I was just LTing a few minutes prior to posting this, and it didn't seem to take a lot of hunters to finally get us. Furthermore, basing continued while we bombed them all to bits- no differently than if we hadn't been there. Also, blindness, and slowdowns shouldn't be necessary to take them down; I was just saying, why use them on a solo wb (a.k.a. Izor), when you could be ambushing the LT.
2. Yes, most pubbers don't match the flying skills of the LTs, but those same LTs also make great hunters; ask one of them, and they're sure to help you kill their comrades. Mainly, I'm trying to say that you doubt the skill of most pubbers.
3. It takes 11 seconds (roughly) to fly from any random location in the spawn zone to the entrance to the flag room, in a terrier (even a newb terrier like me). However, even the newbiest terrier know how to warp, and can use their portal- its not just hypothetically possible, anyone sensible will do it. The other team cannot completely close down the base in those 11 seconds, pub is by definition just a random team thrown together, no one mans skills can completely change it their luck.
4. Which brings me to my next point- Why these "uberitems" won't change the game significantly enough. Firstly, I'll reiterate that its only 1 round. For the example item megawarp, that has an hour cool-down. This means that unless the teams are so evenly matched that the round actually lasts for an hour (which never happens), then and only then would such an item be used twice within 1 round, still costing the buyer $30,000. Second, even if you lose this super important hour long round, its still just 1 round, in pub. NO BIG DEAL. You think AnonymousPubber123 will spend $90,000 to win a game? Well maybe, but how much does he get in return? a measly $6000 at the most. The problem solves itself.
5. Lastly, and most importantly, don't let AnonymousPubber123 or that darn LT get inside your head. I've seen you play, MegamanEXE and you aren't half bad. So, try to be a team leader, hunt the LT by yourself if you must (trust me, it annoys them), front the charge into the flag room, and bring glory to your frequency without tapping into your vast sea of space bucks, and remind AnonymousPubber123 that you can't buy a win.

YOU CAN'T BUY A WIN.
(Let the jokes ensue.)

And PH, why dislike my post? Why even care about this issue? Whatever...

[Izor]

Again, everyone seems to know its broken except you willby. I seen you running around pub in an x doing who knows what so I guess thats why you dont think anything is screwed up. That wildblood123 guy buys like 8 things a round the entire time he's on playing ruining basing for everyone since they cant compete with him. I checked his !$ and he had 5 mil a week ago and still like 4.5 mil now. So in a few months he'll have to stop doing what he's doing and thats acceptable to you? I don't think that's how it was intended. Also, I dont think it was intended to instantly slay wb's. A lanc has a faster max speed than a wb (no idea why) so lancs buying fc's will just slay me and theres nothing I can do about a good player using lanc against me and just !buying me to death. 50 pub bucks for an fc even the most basic newbie has that much. Plus you can buy them every like 5 seconds...the cost of an FC should be at least 2k seeing as how it's an almost guaranteed kill. I don't even think it should be an option honestly.

EDIT: shouldnt it be easier as a wb to buy stuff to defend yourself instead of making it no problem to hunt/kill people? It should take pub a team effort to bring down a veteran like me...not the spamming of a macro

[Ganon-Knight]

Again, as I said earlier, Spacebux is, at its core, a reward system. The problem is what, exactly, it rewards. Spacebux is a time- and experience-based reward system, using kills and flag game wins as the determining factor for how much to reward. What are two things that veteran players have and can put to use in a Pub game? Time and experience – time, as they know the flow of a game and how to change fighting styles as time progresses, and the ability to invest large amounts of time into a game as they know it well, and experience, obviously, more experience in ship-to-ship fighting, basing, and knowledge of the system. New players have neither of these advantages – a person trying out the game for the first time is generally unwilling to commit too much time to the game if it is to hard at first, and the inherently lack experience in fighting and do not know how the system functions.
This means, in the end, that veteran players accumulate large amounts of Spacebux, and its overpowered rewards, while new players, the original intended beneficiary of the Spacebux system, are unable to gain enough Spacebux to make a real difference – and even worse, they don't have enough knowledge of the system to know how to use Spacebux effectively. In other words, ONLY VETERANS ARE ABLE TO USE SPACEBUX EFFECTIVELY, NOT NEW PLAYERS.

People who play longer and more often have an initial advantage? Stop the presses!

[WillBy]

You don't know what I'm doin', Izor? Read that green spam sometime, I'm resetin' flag for longer rounds, killin' off newb LTs, helpin' my LTs, makin' pubbers who can only play with pub bucks look like fools for tryin' to buy a win, and takin' the base as solo cloaker. Help is always welcome, pm me in game to join my frequency.

[Fit of Rage]

Fuck this fiat money bullshit, let's get back on the gold standard.

[paradise!]

Again, everyone seems to know its broken except you willby. I seen you running around pub in an x doing who knows what so I guess thats why you dont think anything is screwed up. That wildblood123 guy buys like 8 things a round the entire time he's on playing ruining basing for everyone since they cant compete with him. I checked his !$ and he had 5 mil a week ago and still like 4.5 mil now. So in a few months he'll have to stop doing what he's doing and thats acceptable to you? I don't think that's how it was intended. Also, I dont think it was intended to instantly slay wb's. A lanc has a faster max speed than a wb (no idea why) so lancs buying fc's will just slay me and theres nothing I can do about a good player using lanc against me and just !buying me to death. 50 pub bucks for an fc even the most basic newbie has that much. Plus you can buy them every like 5 seconds...the cost of an FC should be at least 2k seeing as how it's an almost guaranteed kill. I don't even think it should be an option honestly.

EDIT: shouldnt it be easier as a wb to buy stuff to defend yourself instead of making it no problem to hunt/kill people? It should take pub a team effort to bring down a veteran like me...not the spamming of a macro

Meh, technically people like you are ruining pub izor. You contribute as much to pubbing as a cloaker shooting at people in spawn. You're complaining about spacebux from your perspective. I whizz by you in terr, on my way to base, you just sit in spawn and just shoot people. I've honestly never seen you even make it past the lower bar. There is this whole other section of pubbing, that is sort of the focus: Basing.

I and numerous other people have talked about the disproportionate amount of money some have, and things have been changed. Thors went up by 1,000, they instituted a new delay in the system for buying these sort of things. And a bunch of other things. I don't see why we can't boost up thor prices a bit and add an even longer delay to buying items. There is a problem, of course, but it can be fixed relatively simply. We know what you're pissed about, you've made that clear. Why not just explicitly say what you want changed?

Here I'll do it for you:

Everyone, Izor is saying two things:

• He wb's a lot, and is getting rocked like little bitch by lancasters greening themselves FC's.
• People have too much money, and shit is getting too easy to buy. Too easy, and too often.

Solutions:

• RADICAL REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH YARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! (this 1 is for cops, and all the other OWS die-hards)
• Make things fucking expensive.
• Make an annoyingly long delay for major items. And a fairly long delay for fc/repel/port/burst/etc.

[angry.chair]

Ok, I didn't read it all because this thread has been played out before, and I disagree with some things immediately, but not all.

Like I said in my post, being able to buy a base wipe is cheap. Thats what you said, but summed up.

Only veterans are able to super lev? I disagree. Getting pub cash isn't hard, at all... Half the time only one team is basing, be a terr, port to be flag savior, and you have 2k pub cash in 10 minutes. Win a killothon, win a duel. It isn't that hard for anyone to get 3k cash, 2k for super lev, 1k for rep port abuse and you have a decent lt.

Also, people ALWAYS private freq lev terrs. Hunting lt isn't too hard with port trapping, or a good turret with anti. But I do agree it can take away from the basing, just like killothon, people will stop basing for the cash.

Pub cash isn't ruining the game. Some of the items you can buy take away from it, but not super lev.

[Pressure Drop]

well i read MegamanEXE post

i agree with most of the points and the fucking about with pub and the introduction of a money system is the reason why i stopped playing over a year ago. I'm not sure what state pub is in right now but your post was the direction it was heading and not my idea of fun at all.

Why i played this zone at the start was you respawned in a level playing field (i.e. time collecting greens or points didn't matter), each ship was very different but had a purpose and it was simple, fun and addictive. You should get back to those core principles, specially if you are looking to attract brand new players.

it's pretty sad to see that little has changed, 24 is still spouting the same crap, least this time he told you to join staff rather than to quit the game and forums like i was told when i raised similar issues.

i always thought for a free game the TW website was pretty damned good with the leagues and pub stats automatically recorded and displayed. Seems in all that time a new website is about the only thing that has come of this and so far it actually hasn't even happened, all we can see is a screenshot.

[PH]

And PH, why dislike my post? Why even care about this issue? Whatever...

because i don't need to still be playing to understand that you're spouting bullshit. being "unable to accept defeat by those with more space bucks" is a bad thing? yeah, sure, except "i have more internet currency so i win" goes directly against what the zone was built on.

but hey, if you want to copy hyperspace's life cycle, be my guest. the only difference is that hyperspace resets everything to zero periodically, and that's when people return. only after the economy imbalances itself and the zone is reduced to the same old circle-jerk among the zone's richest do people leave again. since wildblood123's $4.5 million is his to abuse until the end of time if he so chooses, there's nothing to encourage the people who are sick of this system to stick around and keep playing.

[roxxkatt]

suppose we add medals that cost $5 million to buy/achieve

[paradise!]

suppose we add medals that cost $5 million to buy/achieve

Sounds like an absolutely SMASHING idea.

How about you give it a test run in Distension Zone ?