TW Council - UPDATED w/ structure

[Demonic]

I only saw like 5 people even applying, so I guess it depends. This thing doesn't sound like it's very popular to begin with, but I think anyone that actually gave a shit would be applying eventually, assuming they even know about this thing. There were a few worthy people that did apply though, as far as I'm concerned. I don't really know them very well, but that's a lot better than people like oranje or something applying.

And Cres, define people of substance. Who??? I doubt anyone that applied and would actually win could be any worse than half the people on staff. I don't even KNOW who half the people on staff are, but that's usual. I never really understood how random no-named newbies become staff in this game out of the blue though. Anyways, the only people of substance left nowadays are either guys like Ease who don't even log into forums and don't care anyways, or people like Kthx who don't play anymore, log into forums mainly to laugh at what a joke staff are, and probably would not actually contribute much unless they were given real power to make changes.

Since nobody is really sure WHAT this council thing will become, I don't think you'll see guys with already proven track-records apply to this thing. The best bet is to find people that either never got a chance (Weak applied, good example) due to a bad past, or people that really aren't that well known (like that Spock! guy) but seem like they give a shit.

As for the rest... Cres, if you are so worried about who gets in this thing or who doesn't, and are so worried about people of "substance" than apply yourself, if you actually care that much and you think you could contribute in any meaningful way.

True, I also think with regards to weak your past should be irrelevant to a degree, being banned for things doesn't mean you don't have a valued opinion, and could bring something constructive to the table. Since its players voting, and since its unlikely they will know a players past to a degree (staff wise at least) im hoping the voting will be based on what idea's they are looking to bring through over any so called passed indiscretions. Personally I will vote for anyone who actually appears engaging, driven and actually want to affect change in the zone.

[Bukkake Surprise]

I'm voting for Spock!

I haven't played in four months because I'm waiting for the game to stop being ruined by idiotic mods. This council idea is noteworthy, but I'll contain my enthusiasm due to experience. I still think this game can only be saved by hosting it on a server that's not owned by corrupt idiots.

"Too many times I've seen or personally experienced staff abusing/expressing bias towards an individual/group"

Yes, this is true. Assholes like fis and Willby.

What Zizzo said about bypassing the resolution limit should be looked into.

[Exalt]

tw council is going to fail worse than the broncos defense...got clowns as candidates which just pushes ppl with substance away from running cuz nobody wants to waste their time having to work with retards (as if working with staff alone wasnt enough of a challenge)

I only saw like 5 people even applying, so I guess it depends. This thing doesn't sound like it's very popular to begin with, but I think anyone that actually gave a shit would be applying eventually, assuming they even know about this thing. There were a few worthy people that did apply though, as far as I'm concerned. I don't really know them very well, but that's a lot better than people like oranje or something applying.

And Cres, define people of substance. Who??? I doubt anyone that applied and would actually win could be any worse than half the people on staff. I don't even KNOW who half the people on staff are, but that's usual. I never really understood how random no-named newbies become staff in this game out of the blue though. Anyways, the only people of substance left nowadays are either guys like Ease who don't even log into forums and don't care anyways, or people like Kthx who don't play anymore, log into forums mainly to laugh at what a joke staff are, and probably would not actually contribute much unless they were given real power to make changes.

Since nobody is really sure WHAT this council thing will become, I don't think you'll see guys with already proven track-records apply to this thing. The best bet is to find people that either never got a chance (Weak applied, good example) due to a bad past, or people that really aren't that well known (like that Spock! guy) but seem like they give a shit.

As for the rest... Cres, if you are so worried about who gets in this thing or who doesn't, and are so worried about people of "substance" than apply yourself, if you actually care that much and you think you could contribute in any meaningful way.

[Crescent Seal]

tw council is going to fail worse than the broncos defense...got clowns as candidates which just pushes ppl with substance away from running cuz nobody wants to waste their time having to work with retards (as if working with staff alone wasnt enough of a challenge)

[Demonic]

Qan,
IMO the primary benefit was to finally get control over the multiple changes, the diffusion of responsibility, and start holding people accountable when they make changes. But from the sound of it people will still be able to make changes THEY see fit to make and without anyone knowing if they so choose. In fact, this could set the table for the council up to be the ‘fall guy’ for failures. Think about it, if you happen to be a person who currently has control over many of the zone changes, you can still work unfettered and pretty much do what you want. In this situation the council is, at best, going to be reactionary. You would also be in a position to undermine some changes made by the council, basically staying under the radar with a series of minor changes. Why would anyone want to have ‘partial responsibility’ or a system that supports this? That is like being told you are responsible for the cash drawer at a store but that some of managers will also be using it.

I do not advocate a system that causes huge decision overhead, I advocate a system where responsibility is delegated in equal parts with the autonomy. Any system where someone is responsible and they do not also have equal parts of autonomy will eventually fail. I don’t know that this can be a ‘transitional’ thing, it seems to me that either current staff is willing to delegate the responsibility/autonomy package or it isn’t. If it isn’t, then this isn’t going to turn out well.

Of course no one is saying turn over the running of the zone to a new council. IMO the correct approach is to delegate parts/sections of it at first. A single council (as opposed to a council and a staff) where people are assigned specific responsibilities and control. Development is a good example. Obviously we don’t want some clueless guy being assigned to something as important as this; and in fact it should be have either a leadership hierarchy or a small subset of the council who are responsible and have control. We don’t need the entire council micromanaging development; but we don’t want someone who retains a staff position and can change shit at their will and under the radar. (Casting no stones here, simply an example.) Thoughts?
eph

The idea of council is not to BE staff though eph, and that's what your describing. Assuming every minor change needs to go through council will mean nothing gets done, and you would probably have no staff left anyways as frustration of lack of being able to do anything will take over. You would need a compromise, minor changes/fixes doesn't really effect too much, and is generally done on a whim/suggestion etc.. Changes like pubmap, well again debatable, does the council want to sit for 24hrs discussing every single aspect or does it want to deal with the important matters, such as league rules/changes etc..

[Ephemeral]

Qan,
IMO the primary benefit was to finally get control over the multiple changes, the diffusion of responsibility, and start holding people accountable when they make changes. But from the sound of it people will still be able to make changes THEY see fit to make and without anyone knowing if they so choose. In fact, this could set the table for the council up to be the ‘fall guy’ for failures. Think about it, if you happen to be a person who currently has control over many of the zone changes, you can still work unfettered and pretty much do what you want. In this situation the council is, at best, going to be reactionary. You would also be in a position to undermine some changes made by the council, basically staying under the radar with a series of minor changes. Why would anyone want to have ‘partial responsibility’ or a system that supports this? That is like being told you are responsible for the cash drawer at a store but that some of managers will also be using it.

I do not advocate a system that causes huge decision overhead, I advocate a system where responsibility is delegated in equal parts with the autonomy. Any system where someone is responsible and they do not also have equal parts of autonomy will eventually fail. I don’t know that this can be a ‘transitional’ thing, it seems to me that either current staff is willing to delegate the responsibility/autonomy package or it isn’t. If it isn’t, then this isn’t going to turn out well.

Of course no one is saying turn over the running of the zone to a new council. IMO the correct approach is to delegate parts/sections of it at first. A single council (as opposed to a council and a staff) where people are assigned specific responsibilities and control. Development is a good example. Obviously we don’t want some clueless guy being assigned to something as important as this; and in fact it should be have either a leadership hierarchy or a small subset of the council who are responsible and have control. We don’t need the entire council micromanaging development; but we don’t want someone who retains a staff position and can change shit at their will and under the radar. (Casting no stones here, simply an example.) Thoughts?
eph

[Summa]

TW Council
Legislation within TW

We've had a formation meeting to decide the initial state of the Council. The Council can modify its own rules using standard procedure, as necessary. Its purpose is to promote deliberate, well-reasoned change within the zone, as a collaboration between staff and players.
(Yes, this is going to be a very dry read.)

TW Council will consist of 9 players (elected) and 9 members of staff (selected by department heads). Current staff:

Sysop: M_M God

I actually logged into th forums cuz I thought this was an idea worth reading and discussing!

Sysop: Demonic

You lost me.

Bonghits for council 2014.

[kthx]

You've been gone awhile exalt, please spare me the diatribe until we see some real results.

[Exalt]

Instead Council will probably do a fair bit of fighting with staff, revert changes made by staff after the fact, make its own semi-controversial changes that grinds the gears of the department they fall under; in other words, step on some toes. Bring your steel-toed boots. I don't see how it can work any other way inside the current system without basically destroying everything that's already come before. The highly principled among us might consider this a travesty ... but it's simple political reality, and while I have idealistic tendencies, in the end I'm a realist. I want to make this work.

I've never seen a job I'm more perfect for! Fighting with staff? Stepping on toes? Destroy the entire system to rebuild it into something much better? Sounds like every thread I've ever made. You'll need people with the right personalities to do this though. If people get voted in that basically care more about being liked or popular than being right and getting shit done, well.. this will be a huge failure. Obviously, the people that like things to remain the same are all wrong at this point, because this game has steadily been losing population for years. Gotta have something new and drastic, and the large majority of people will not like change. This council thing will not make anyone popular by any means. That's kind of why it is so ironic that this is a popularity contest to get voted in.

[qan]

Re: oversight, Eph, Council and staff are separate, basically. At the moment. There are no rules for oversight; there really are just the bare minimum rules. Council is like a newborn baby -- treat it well and carefully and it may grow into something worthwhile. If you want to push for full oversight and are on Council, you can certainly do that. However, I think you'll see a lot of resistance on the staff side for that, and not without cause. Staff is dysfunctional, but we still do get things done; we still have a staff structure, we still have people running departments and so forth. It may not be the best, but it also has its merits. If you want to know the fastest way to see Council attacked from all sides and burned to the ground, a good way to start would be to demand oversight of all changes in TW made by staff.

That said, obviously Council will be able to make changes after the fact, or its own changes. I would consider it the equivalent of one collective sysop, in a sense, as it's currently defined. A sysop with a lot on its mind.

Is a 100% volunteer, unpaid staff for an ancient game going to wait for the next meeting every time it wants to get something done? Probably not. For the big stuff, I would think it'd be prudent to bring it to Council and get some ideas, but by no means will it be required. We barely get anything done as it is. This zone would very likely grind to a halt in the red tape, especially if we can't schedule meetings in such a way to always get quorum.

Instead Council will probably do a fair bit of fighting with staff, revert changes made by staff after the fact, make its own semi-controversial changes that grinds the gears of the department they fall under; in other words, step on some toes. Bring your steel-toed boots. I don't see how it can work any other way inside the current system without basically destroying everything that's already come before. The highly principled among us might consider this a travesty ... but it's simple political reality, and while I have idealistic tendencies, in the end I'm a realist. I want to make this work.



(Also: I moved STAMOS' post over here via the "please no 'middle finger to the community' applications" request. Please repost without the trashtalk and with some real content if you actually want to run.)

[Ephemeral]

Stamos,
Wrong thread.

Qan,
Can you further define the scope of the zone decisions that the council votes upon? In other words traditionally many people have had the ability to make changes, and many of these were done ‘on-the-fly’ and without over sight.

1. Will this continue? Can, for example, Demonic make a small change to one of the ships in ?go hockey without any council vote or oversight*? Or can someone switch the pub map to one of the holiday maps without a council vote or oversight?
2. Is there any other mechanism that staff can use to make changes in the zone that bypasses the council?
3. Obviously the existing zone rules are in place and the zone already has trained people for doing things like silencing and bans. Does council get any insight into these type actions (for example being told who did what)?

eph

*‘Oversight’ may be something like the person simply informing the council before making the change and the council agreeing that it doesn’t need a vote or the council ‘pre-approving’ certain actions.)

[STAMOS]

In-game name(s): STAMOS
Years playing TW, SS: OVER EIGHT MONTHS
Primary arenas played: I DON'T KNOW WHAT ARENAS ARE

Short TW/SS Bio: GOOD DAY. I AM STAMOS AND I AM RUNNING FOR TW COUNCIL, BUT MORE ON THAT IN A MOMENT. I WOULD FIRST LIKE TO GIVE GLORY TO THE MOTHERLAND, AND TO MY COMRADE NIKOLAI FOR INTRODUCING ME TO THIS WONDERFUL GAME. IT HAS TAUGHT ME MUCH ABOUT APPRECIATING CULTURAL DIVERSITY. EXCEPT WHEN IT COMES TO THE DUTCH. FUCK THE DUTCH. SERIOUSLY, HOW CAN YOU SCUMBAGS TURN SANTA CLAUS INTO A RACIST PRO-SLAVERY CARICATURE? LOOK UP "SINTERKLAAS" IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME. HE OWNS A LITTLE BLACK SLAVE BOY, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. ANYWAY, IT IS NICE TO BE ON THIS FORUM AND MEET ALL OF YOU, MINUS ANY DUTCH THAT ARE HERE.

Why choose you for Council?: I KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR TRENCH WARS, UNLIKE THOSE CURRENTLY IN POWER. I DON'T CARE IF "THEPAP" IS ESSENTIALLY THE ONLY BOT DEVELOPER THE ZONE HAS. HE ROUTINELY OVERSTEPS HIS BOUNDARIES TO ISSUE WARNINGS FOR PETTY OFFENSES, WHILE IGNORING HELP CALLS THAT ACTUALLY REQUIRE A MODICUM OF EFFORT. HE IS LIKE A REDNECK COP THAT CAMPS OUT AT A 4 WAY STOP TO ISSUE CITATIONS FOR PEOPLE DOING ROLLING STOPS, BUT IF A DOMESTIC VIOLENCE CALL COMES IN HE WILL BE ASLEEP IN HIS CAR WITH DONUT GLAZE ALL OVER HIS LIPS. GOD DAMN I HATE THE DUTCH. BUT I DIGRESS. THERE IS NOT ENOUGH BEING DONE TO RETAIN PLAYERS. IN FACT, STAFF RECENTLY HIRED A GUY WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATH OF EXTREME GAMES AND MADE HIM A MOD IN THE SPAN OF LIKE TWO MONTHS. IF I DIDN'T LOVE FIS I WOULDN'T HAVE STUCK AROUND FOR EIGHT MINUTES, LET ALONE EIGHT MONTHS.

Zone issues important to you: MY FIRST ACT AS COUNCILMAN WOULD BE TO PROPOSE A ZONE WIDE BLOCK OF ALL IP RANGES ORIGINATING IN THE NETHERLANDS. ANY "CULTURE" THAT CAN TURN A HARMLESS FOLKLORE CHARACTER INTO A SLAVE DRIVER, USE THE NAMES OF TERMINAL ILLNESSES AS INTENSIFIERS IN EVERYDAY LANGUAGE, AND THROW BANANAS AT BLACK FOOTBALL PLAYERS WHILE CHANTING ETHNIC SLURS HAS NO PLACE IN THIS WORLD, MUCH LESS IN THIS GAME. I WOULD PROBABLY ALSO BLOCK BELGIUM AS WELL, SINCE THEY LOOK UP TO THE NETHERLANDS LIKE IDIOTS. LUXEMBOURG SEEMS PRETTY COOL THOUGH. I'D AT LEAST LET THEM PLAY FOR A WHILE. MAYBE.

VOTE STAMOS. ALSO PEE PEE SOCK AND LELAND. THANK YOU, COMRADES.

[Exalt]

Also agree with this "newb" comment, spock probably plays more pubs then all those "vets" put together, and most importantly currently plays pub. Who better to provide reasonable suggestions about how it should move forward. That said, I am not voting so its down to you as a population on who you choose, so im sure as everyone as said this will be a popularity contest over an actual productive idea.

Okay then, my mistake, I apologize. As for the rest, you are spot on. This is what I'm really worried about more than anything. This is going to be a popularity contest, and what will happen is the people that deserve to be in this Council, who will be productive and important pieces to a possible great idea, won't be voted in due to various factors (be it they are too "newbie", they are disliked, they aren't as popular, they aren't as well known to the public, lots of people will just vote for their friends instead of the better choice, people will try to vote for laughs instead of production, etc). I'm basically predicting a complete failure kind of like you've already said, although I'm hoping people take this seriously enough to do the right thing. I just have very low faith in the overall populous of trenchwars to recognize the big picture of it all. I can wish and hope, but I will prepare for the worst.

Also, Kthx...me and you have gone back a long ways man... and I very rarely have ever disagreed with you about almost anything involving staff or this zone in general, but you are WRONG on all accounts to make a mockery of this thing. If you aren't gonna take it seriously like it deserves, you need to shut the fuck up man. No offense, but this time you are seriously wrong. You never see me care this much or get this pissed off over stupidity almost ever, especially not when I usually join in on the trolling in forums/tw. You know me wark, and you know how I work, but this is something worth taking seriously for once. Stop fucking up and recognize that. This thing needs legitimacy, and support from players like you could help make that happen. Seriously, stop being a jackass saying you want to be some fucking hitler wanna-be dictator to join the council. I originally said I'd support you wholeheartedly, when I assumed you'd take this seriously. When you actually ARE serious about something in trenchwars, you can be one of the most persuasive and best leaders there are, but when you mock this thing and act like a complete fucking tool over it, I get really annoyed, because you have potential to finally do something good for this zone and instead you shit all over it trying to act like you are more important than the game and community itself. Shut the fuck up about your hatred for staff, something you haven't been a part of in over fucking 12 years now. Get over yourself dude. You don't even play this game anymore, and I've been friends with you for a very long time. You've never seen me directly rebuke you like this before, but in this instance, you deserve it. Look in the mirror and come back with a better attitude bro. Don't fuck this up for everyone else just because you want to hold a stupid fucking grudge for over a fucking decade. This is literally progressive as fuck for staff. They NEVER EVER let themselves be judged or corrected by PLAYERS of this game... and FINALLY they are doing the right thing here, and instead of supporting it, you are fucking shitting all over it in some stupid misplaced power trip. C'mon dude. You know better than this. If you can't drop this stupid ass grudge with staff members that aren't even staff anymore and you keep bunching all these staff members into the same organic group as if staffers from 15 years ago = staffers from today.... well Kthx... you need to re-evaluate your priorities here.

[Demonic]

Demonic, while I believe you probably were (unofficially) adding me to your list of "bitter" players that shouldn't be added to the council (i cant say for sure since you didnt actually list my name, either for or against), what I can say is this last sentence is what I've been saying this entire time. The ONLY people I want to see on the council are people that will put personal feelings and biases aside, who will put their ego's in check, and who really, truly, unequivocally GIVE A SHIT about the betterment of the zone and of this entire council idea. We do NOT need anyone making a mockery of probably the best, most progressive staff idea I've seen in years. I agree that players like Spock! and Eph would be in this council, and I will vote for them. I added myself to the list with mostly no hope of actually making it due to me not being a popular player, but I DO actually care an I DO actually give a shit. Even if I cannot get in, I still want to make sure only the people that SHOULD be in this thing make it. Everyone down voted Spock! immediately due to saying "he's a newb" as if that is anything but counterproductive to this entire thing. Spock! has proven he gives a shit, he is a pure-pubber and therefore has a unique perspective on things, and I for one support him wholeheartedly as someone that I can already tell with do his best to make this thing work. I simply hope everyone else actually stops making jokes and a mockery of this thing, and they actually do the right thing and give this legitimacy and let it work.

IF done right, this can be the best idea staff have had in a decade. I just simply hope it isn't one of those great ideas on PAPER like Socialism/Communism... which on paper seems like a utopia (everyone is equal!!!!) but in reality is a fucked up mess of shit that just made things worse by far.

Um no I wasn't adding you to the list, very few players go on that list for me unless nothing but a troll, who does nothing in anyway to help the zone except cry about staff being useless etc..

Also agree with this "newb" comment, spock probably plays more pubs then all those "vets" put together, and most importantly currently plays pub. Who better to provide reasonable suggestions about how it should move forward. That said, I am not voting so its down to you as a population on who you choose, so im sure as everyone as said this will be a popularity contest over an actual productive idea.

[Turban]

m ready to be part of Trench Wars Council pls vote for me for a better future.