Official DiSTENSiON Thread (Schedule)

[roxxkatt]

idea for qan:

problem: lots of people hate terrs emp, especially since some people play nothing but terr and spam !emp every 5 minutes, and bot prizes 3-5 depletes, which is too many
problem: shield times on all ships except wb are really shitty, and the ops skill to use shields for 1 person costs half of 20 minutes, and whole team costs whole round to use, which is then gone in <5 seconds

solution: jack up shields time on all ships, especially terr, which u jack up twice as much, then move terr !emp to a late game ops skill, and replace that skill with a !gimmeshields, which only prizes shields to that terr, which last a long time, which u can optionally extend into multiple levels that shield all terrs, then whole team
solution: change ops shields skill to be way cheaper for nonterr ships, then add another level which does all terrs, then whole team

[roxxkatt]

also, ops should be autospecialized to zclass, which you never did before you quit last time
ops only get scout up per level, and even as a lvl30 ops, i can really only afford 2-3 skills, which kills variety and is boring, with the added downside of not being able to change skills while >30% lvl, which is even worse since ops takes years to lvl


also, might be good to edit map and move the "wormholes" to added little compartments in the side mid walls, so that they get moved off the ops warps
theyre inconsistently warping ppl actually trying to use them, and frequently warp people just warped by ops


also need to edit opsmine lvz so theyre randomly scattered about, as they used to be strategically placed on the old map

[Ephemeral]

Qan,
I am surprised to hear that your plan would be to recapture old players to keep the zone alive. The fact that Exalt agrees without ought to speak loudly to you. (LOL, just kidding Exalt.)

I am the first person to agree that there is value in being able to hold on to existing players and even to make some attempts to entice back previous players. But saying there is value and saying it is a priority are two very different things.

First, we have a very clear history of what happens when new player retention is not addressed; both in this zone and with other zones. No one can argue that having an substantial, constant influx new players is what kept SS going in the past. We can certainly debate the impact of various other external factors (i.e. aging graphics, other game competition, etc.) and their influences for months on end; but perhaps that best stays beyond this discussion.

I also have to take issue with the observation of there currently being so few new players. I was on the ‘new player notification list’ since it was first started and spend some time on staff with my focus on assisting new players. The rate of new players entering the zone was impressive at times, it frequently was several new players per hour. Of course some of these were simply aliases, and admittedly this was during the Steam efforts but this is significant.

Even more significant is what happens when the zone doesn’t prioritize new player retention. When Pub falters there is no point in trying to market the game to a new audience. Period. Any new player who downloads the game, enters Pub, and finds 6 people playing takes what impression of SS away with him? They don’t know about other arenas, they don’t know shit about various events. Even if they see an event notice they aren’t likely to go to it.
And what happens when events are a higher priority? Here was my experience. I would spend a lot of time helping a new player in pub and try to introduce them just how exciting a good competitive basing game can be. Of course this is made much more difficult with all the various crap that goes on in Pub such as more experienced players ?buying wins but it is what it is. Consider the number of Pub games that people think of as being ‘good’ or ‘competitive’; I would put this around 33%. This means that you have to work with these new players, and get them to stick around, through at least 3 or more pub games. This in and of itself is hard enough; but now add in the ’event’ factor. Some random staffer logs checks one thing; ‘is anyone else running an event’? That’s it, they don’t check to see the status of Pub. They don’t care if another staffer has a new player in training. They have(had) a quota to fill and need to host something or have one ‘vet’ whining about wanting some event.

So what happens? People are not going to be bothered with trying to help new players when you simply end up ‘competing’ with all the other forces which nullify your efforts. The slippery slope has been entered.

I completely agree with not spending any resources on trying to bring new players into the game. It is a complete waste of time; the chances of them coming in and finding a good, healthy pub game is very, very low.

Qan, as you know this is like a web site. You have about 60 seconds to capture the user. Other games accomplish this by making a new play ‘invest’ in the game; this often involves some slick presentation and skill building tasks. We could be spending some resources on doing this.
Or we would be coding things like giving staff a way to quickly see if there is a new player in training. Or we could, at a minimum, educate staffers on running events intelligently.

I understand that you, and the zone, have invested huge amounts of time into Distension (and other events). Defending it is natural. And as stated, I certainly concur that ‘old’ player retention is indeed important. But done at the cost, and almost at the exclusion, of new player emphasis is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

But good news for you is that you are winning this debate. For whatever reason(s) new players have now been given up on. Let’s hope you are right and the zone can stay alive on the backs of existing players forever. I would recommend that with this approach things like having a working ‘lost password’ procedure becomes kind of important. (The current billing situation needs to be fixed immediately; if TW cant get real representation than only other solution is a new billing server. Of course the zone will need to find a way to fund a new server based upon a plan where new players are not prioritized and the success depends on bringing inactive, existing players back. Sounds like a real challenge.)
eph

[fiS]

Maybe we should rename this topic as it's not really distension related anymore, but since we're all at it, I'll have a go too, I guess.

I think that a small achievement system for pub, like a tutorial, would help the new players. Look around. All the new (and mostly horrible and cheap) mobile games, most of the PC games, they all have something in common: they have either a tutorial or an achievement system that forces the user in the first couple minutes playing through a process of what he needs to do. And once that user has accomplished that process, they leave him alone, "now you're all good to go!".
Not saying that this game is easily comparable to new mobile or other great graphic pc games - that's not what I'm trying to say - but we're not in the 90's anymore where kids figured out how to play mario on NES without a tutorial (lol). Today's generation, I guess, needs or appreciates these tutorials. (At least I'd think so.) Now one might argue that we're not fishing for new generation players...

But anyway. I think there have been made efforts at trying to get a small achievement system for pub, or something like a tutorial arena where a player would have to be guided through the controls and game mechanics. I don't know if progress is being made, and without wanting to insult anyone, I wouldn't be surprised if that was cancelled or getting stuck again like so many other cool projects.

Also we have to consider, that IF we implement the achievement system, and if we move a step forward, not limiting it to newbies only, but instead giving every pub player an incentive to play again (or a fresh new goal), for example to get 1000 kills in any ship for a 3 star achievement, how it would impact the whole pub again. Now here I can make a reference to distension about a possible outcome.

I don't know if everyone here is aware about some distension details. Well, every ship over rank 20 gets you 5% experience bonus on all ships. That sums up to a quite nice amount having multiple rank 20 ships in the hangar. However, some ships (oh qan I love you) are just horrible to level up. While I got my shark to 20 in like 3 sessions (probably even only 2), I'm stuck with the jav for ages - and I'm not a help to my team at all, but I just want my jav to be done with so I get the 5% bonus lol. And a lot of dist players think that way, which is why you made that recent change - that should favor the team and basing, instead of people only trying to level what they want.

Now what if we did an the archievements in pub. Where people get to have XXX kills in ship Y - would that turn out the same way, maybe, just because they want that achievement? Would it affect pub as a whole - negatively, or would it move us forward?

This might help both - new AND old player retention. Or might fail because it would drive people away?

[bkgmjo]

Put 1000 ?help calls and 1000 ?cheater calls as achievement and see how it affects the game.

[McVicar]

idea for qan:

problem: lots of people hate terrs emp, especially since some people play nothing but terr and spam !emp every 5 minutes, and bot prizes 3-5 depletes, which is too many
problem: shield times on all ships except wb are really shitty, and the ops skill to use shields for 1 person costs half of 20 minutes, and whole team costs whole round to use, which is then gone in <5 seconds

solution: jack up shields time on all ships, especially terr, which u jack up twice as much, then move terr !emp to a late game ops skill, and replace that skill with a !gimmeshields, which only prizes shields to that terr, which last a long time, which u can optionally extend into multiple levels that shield all terrs, then whole team
solution: change ops shields skill to be way cheaper for nonterr ships, then add another level which does all terrs, then whole team

I agree with the concept that something needs to be done about EMPs again, but not removing it entirely, just limiting its use. It's ridiculous that you can save up multiple EMPs and it's always the same shitty terriers doing the same old shit, emping then rushing you while engines are shut down. Maybe limiting EMP to twice a round and not allowing the EMP ability to stack up, or as cheese said making it an Ops skill for certain parts of the round.

[LF]

I agree with the concept that something needs to be done about EMPs again, but not removing it entirely, just limiting its use. It's ridiculous that you can save up multiple EMPs and it's always the same shitty terriers doing the same old shit, emping then rushing you while engines are shut down. Maybe limiting EMP to twice a round and not allowing the EMP ability to stack up, or as cheese said making it an Ops skill for certain parts of the round.

It is an Ops skill already, just not until the later levels. As it is now the !emp ability for terr is available exactly every 10 minutes, so what is happening is the terrs can save it and use it 9 minutes and X seconds after they get it, and just get another one a few seconds later since its really easy to time. A much less complicated solution could be to change the timer from every 10 minutes regardless, to exactly 10 minutes after it is used. That way they can't be "stacked", and this is coming from 1 of only 3 terrs that actually have this ability and the highest level Ops in the game

[Fusha]

I'd like to see the single base timer raised again; it just feels too short to have a 90 second game with 14 people on each team, especially when freeplay lasts three minutres. Would be happy to see it raised to 150 seconds.

Regarding teamplay, the existence of the 5% bonus for level 20 in all ships is very counterproductive, as fis mentioned above. plz remoof
I also support rewarding teams for controlling the flag, regardless of how it affects teamplay; the extra point just feel very rewarding, and thus, fun!

[qan]

But saying there is value and saying it is a priority are two very different things.

First, we have a very clear history of what happens when new player retention is not addressed; both in this zone and with other zones.

In brief (have to change computers here quite quickly), my focus is not personally on new player retention. It's a goal, certainly, and something I keep in mind. It's incredibly important. But I personally think keeping the players we have active is more important. That's all. It's a personal opinion; please don't assume it's some kind of decree regarding zone policy or something. Thankfully, I'm not TW. For this game to survive, it needs a lot of disparate elements working in different directions.

New player retention is far from being unaddressed. I personally am just not focused on it more than retaining new players. I have a lot on my plate. Different people need to worry about different things.

And sadly enough, most people don't have the time to put into this game to make it really cook. I put in ...far too much as it is, and even still I get shit from people on a pretty much daily basis for not doing enough. Has happened over and over, and along with the political nonsense, it's what usually leads me to burn-out. That's the tendency: those who show they're very willing to work to improve the zone burn out quickly. (Heh, probably sounds familiar to you, no?)

Last point: I don't think that running Distension an hour and a half a day is working toward old player retention to the exclusion of new players. Yeah, I could implement everything you suggested. Unfortunately I also work for a living, am already being accused of letting Council burn to the ground, etc. I just don't know where you expect us to get the time and manpower to do this. You've already made it clear that like most people, you're not willing to help, but are happy to give advice. Lots of advice. Forgive me if that makes me a little bit bitter.

[qan]

I think that a small achievement system for pub, like a tutorial, would help the new players. Look around. All the new (and mostly horrible and cheap) mobile games, most of the PC games, they all have something in common: they have either a tutorial or an achievement system that forces the user in the first couple minutes playing through a process of what he needs to do. And once that user has accomplished that process, they leave him alone, "now you're all good to go!".

Yeah, we have most of an achievement system in. One of the coders was working on it rather hard and then quit. It could probably move forward without a ton of difficulty, but will need much testing. I was actually "assigned" to create it in exchange for getting my SMod position back, and I may have unconsciously blown this off out of spite. That is, I would probably have been happy to do it if I'd been welcomed back rather than having to make some sort of trade for a position that maybe I feel (perhaps unjustly?) I should always be entitled to, considering my contributions over the last decade. Regardless, I dropped the ball. It's yet another thing on a very long to-do list. We don't exactly have a lot of coders, though we're trying to remedy that. It might be a good project for one of the new coders to take up. Will mention this to ThePAP, who is heading up botdev.

I don't know if everyone here is aware about some distension details. Well, every ship over rank 20 gets you 5% experience bonus on all ships. That sums up to a quite nice amount having multiple rank 20 ships in the hangar. However, some ships (oh qan I love you) are just horrible to level up. While I got my shark to 20 in like 3 sessions (probably even only 2), I'm stuck with the jav for ages - and I'm not a help to my team at all, but I just want my jav to be done with so I get the 5% bonus lol. And a lot of dist players think that way, which is why you made that recent change - that should favor the team and basing, instead of people only trying to level what they want.

Yeah, it can be somewhat counter-productive if people are dead-set on getting their rank 20. But then, they'd be just as dead-set on ranking up their main, the one they are getting the bonuses for in order to rank faster, right? So removing it, as suggested by Fusha, probably isn't going to help things any. If anything it might be nice to scale it.

I'd like to see the single base timer raised again; it just feels too short to have a 90 second game with 14 people on each team, especially when freeplay lasts three minutres. Would be happy to see it raised to 150 seconds.

Yeah, have been thinking about this one. In part it's because of how the timer is set up... not many people know, but there are two modes: standard (hold flag for X minutes consecutive) and hybrid (when you break a hold, you reverse the clock 3x or 4x faster, until you get to the time it takes to win, and then it counts down for your side). Can't recall which, but one has a larger timer. I did adjust times recently, but it probably needs further tweaking, especially when you have a very large group that can lay claim to a base and hold it quite easily.

problem: lots of people hate terrs emp, especially since some people play nothing but terr and spam !emp every 5 minutes, and bot prizes 3-5 depletes, which is too many
problem: shield times on all ships except wb are really shitty, and the ops skill to use shields for 1 person costs half of 20 minutes, and whole team costs whole round to use, which is then gone in <5 seconds

Both of these need to be addressed, it's true. As well as the Ops Mine issue and the warp issue, though those are lower priority at the moment (though I'm now reading some coords from CFG, so the infrastructure is there. If you want to give me the coords, Cheese, or redo the LVZ for the mines, that's fine with me.) EMP is easier to resolve -- not allowing it to stack, for example (though the way the ability tick system works, it might require some separate coding).

... Ops unfortunately I just have not tested sufficiently. It's barely in beta compared to other ships. The shield time CFG inconsistency is definitely an easy resolution for a presently almost worthless ability, probably overlooked for too long. I liked the suggestion you made about scaling +OP amt and cost by 10 to provide greater granularity, too. But even with that... the prices for OP abilities are set somewhat arbitrarily; Ops itself is only played by a few people (myself not being one of them -- barely have time to play in-ship Dist), and so the reports are few and far between. Maybe if I talk to you and LF together about Ops sometime we can get a clearer idea. (Another thing I should do, right? Heh. Just concentrate on this! No, no, concentrate on this! No, you'd be a complete idiot and waste of flesh to even consider giving that any attention -- focus on this instead! Fun stuff.)

[roxxkatt]

you will probably need to talk with even more people, as everyone plays it differently, and u might need to set cooldowns on certain things like forcing every player to look at dr jeckyll

[roxxkatt]

also i might redo the lvz and hand it to you if i get bored enough and have free time

but there will be more mines and they will be randomly placed

[Afri]

game getting too popular, huge waiting line today. set team caps to 20v20? no1 will notice three more per team and it cuts 6 off the waiting list

[Spock!]

Also, random times on Monday and Thursday are rather pointless. All it does is make some people miss out (like I did today), and results in people just waiting around in spec for it to be hosted.

I concur with Afri^^ I just caught the tale end of Distension today and there was a line of 12 people. Not fun.

[qan]

also i might redo the lvz and hand it to you if i get bored enough and have free time

but there will be more mines and they will be randomly placed

That works for me if you have the interest. Would appreciate it. If the fields are thin presently and could use some bolstering, your call there -- trust you know what you're doing.

and u might need to set cooldowns on certain things like forcing every player to look at dr jeckyll

Made me giggle. (I'm not really known for giggling.) That's a washed-out image of Mark E. Smith from the elitist punk band The Fall. He hasn't aged well. I used to be a much bigger fan than I am now, but they're still pretty good, as far as bad angry music goes. Here: A downtempo number.

game getting too popular, huge waiting line today. set team caps to 20v20? no1 will notice three more per team and it cuts 6 off the waiting list

The cap is there to prevent the server from recycling. I've raised it before, but this is the highest number I've been able to have it at without it at least recycling occasionally. Of course, I could always increase rearm times and the message spam delays (you know how !armory chugs along rather than spits out at you?). Don't you love that we don't run ASSS?

Also, random times on Monday and Thursday are rather pointless.

They have a point, but as to whether it's effective remains to be seen.