Spider limitations? What a backwards irrelevent rule

[wadi]

Here's some ideas for ship changes that might be neat (heavy testing would be needed of course)

-Give lev old settings (reps + port but no rockets), L2 bomb, and light emp (like the warzone lev but with emp). Maybe make it attachable at 15, or team green all the way to 20 so it doesn't spend too long in pub.

Agree with daemon about the weasel. I'd also like to see it's energy upped to 1000 or even 1100. Getting strayed by 1 red bullet is humiliating.

Do not agree about the random damage. I can't justify it, other than saying I like the random element.

[wadi]

Re: Re: Re: Spider limitations? What a backwards irrelevent rule

Originally posted by Divine Rides
I prefer the 4/1 vs. the 5 spides, but that still is not the point- the point is- it isn't for you to say that 5 spides can't be played, these altruisms on basing are fickle food on a shifting plate fellas- it used to be silly to fly anything other than 4 spides and a jav- before that it was two knuckles and an eight track- ease up on the superlatives- 5 spiders is just another way to play.

I hesistate to say this, but you've been out of the loop too long div. When push comes to shove, pallies will pull the 5 spids just like every other squad, or they'll suck it up and go down to Spastic, Incuria, or a dozen other squads with less prestigious histories. Your squad has more depth, more talent, more flexibility, but it's all about as potent as a fart in the wind when you get right down to it. We saw that last season, and we're going to see it again this season.

Frankly, I don't even like the 4 spider rule. I'd like to see a blanket 3 ship of any type max, with the exception of 2 max on sharks (if you have 3 sharks, you can easily keep the attacking team out of base with reps alone). I think it'd make for some interesting lineups.

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by Pure_Luck
no one has offered a sensible map change that would be popular for all. Also changing ship settings...Anyone have suggestions that will be able to get backed up by the majority of the population? Then if you get support things can be changed. You can't just say change this or that Be more specific. Sufficient, your map idea has gotten horrible response from the rest of tw.

I will be working on some maps. After I say this I'm done w/this discussion.

1) Cram or 5 spid strat ... whatever you want to call it ... is a valid strat (look at the rules) ... it is not cheating as you put it Crvn ... it was never intended to "lag cheat". Lag is part of the game whether you like it or not. Choke pts (which in some ways IS cramming, are also an integral part of the game.
2) The TW basing community has given up on beating cram / 5 spid strat ... I say this bc many ppl obviously are not working towards anything innovative in defeating the cram / 5 spid strat. (div excluded from this grp)
3) 4 spid max is a biased method of trying to 1. weaken / eliminate the cram (basically a way to hold a chokept) 2. diversifying ship lineups.
4) This fun factor ... it'd be nice if basing was more fun. However what do we call fun? I call fun having the freedom to play whatever lineup I want or whatever my team wants ... not being forced to play one way (by force I mean RULE enforced).

Thus:

1) There must be something changed.
a) 4 spid max ... the poorest change bc of the fact it is biased against the cram / 5 spid strat. This is the "quick fix" that ppl want to use bc they don't want to try any FAIRER method like ship setting changes or map changes. The rule change is an easy solution ... but one that further limits ship diversity. Sry to say, but I do not want to play 4 spid 1 jav every game. If this rule is implemented ... teams will be playing 4 spid 1 jav vs equal or better opponents, and 4 spid 1 wb or another variation with easier opponents (this HAPPENS ALREADY when you play a weaker team under the current 5 spid allowance ... teams fool around with different lineups in TWL when they play weaker opponents). 4 spid max may increase ship diversity (by 1 jav baically), but it DOES NOT INCREASE SHIP LINEUP DIVERSITY bc everyone will be playing 4 spid 1 jav. Look for a better long term solution for TW.
b) ship setting change ... obviously a major change ... but there are indeed fundamental problems with certain ships. Changing something here would help change the root of the problem.
c) map change ... what I believe is the best change bc it is unbiased towards all the valid strategies. Stop, trying to find shortcuts (4 spid limit) and try working on long term solutions (ship settings or map change). THE CURRENT MAP IS OBVIOUSLY FLAWED (almost everyone agrees I think). The main reason being THERE IS ONLY 1 CHOKEPT TO FR. There are many other reasons for change ... roof is separated and basically unusable ... how does that help the team who wants to jav or teams that want to utlilize the roof? I only see better games with the WHOLE FR used including the sides and the roof. And there are indeed ways to make FR still defendable with 2 entrances ... it may even lead to the lifting of the 1 terr 2 shark restriction currently in place ... thus more freedom to choose lineups or ship change (if 2 ship changes are implemented). I know all you vets don't like the change bc this map has been used for so long and it has worked. However, obviously IT DOESN'T WORK ANYMORE (since there are so many suggestions / compaints being made). The current map's potential has already been reached, or close to reached (close to reached bc some ppl obviously have given up trying to beat the cram / 5 spid strat using something innovative). FRESH PRESPECTIVE ON BASING ... that's what I want.

Btw wadi (I think it was his post), the poll for 4 spid max was for BWC not TWD OR TWL, there is a difference ... and 60% (I think that's what you said) is NOT a big majority considering ppl who did not play in BWC (most likely) did not vote ... the poll was directed specifically at BWC, you cannot generalize it for anything else.

---

I would like either a ship setting change or a base map change. However, no ship restriction change. Regardless of the reasons above, does anyone agree?

Have a nice day.

[Verthanthi]

Re: Re: Spider limitations? What a backwards irrelevent rule

Originally posted by Nickname
My other points: I heard a debate on cramvslining (again) in base the other day - it was two newbies (like real newbies, i had never heard of either) who were both sure the camisade and only camisade were the first crammers. whiterabbits were the first real crammers because they were the first squad to use 5 spiders in twlb - the cram was just the next logical step.

We basically didn't cram, though. Ezo and boo would fuck around in ent sometimes, but by and large we lined. I give credit to raspi and myth.

[Escalate]

Originally posted by Stabwound
Because the TrenchWars ship settings are horribly unbalanced for organized basing games.

the ship settings wouldnt need to be balanced, the teams and therefore the game would naturally be balanced by the fact that both teams have to use the exact same ships.

and i agree with what sufficient said.

[wadi]

Numbers are numbers sufficient. 70 people voted in that poll, and 60% of them voted to strike it. The overwhelming majority of BWC players are on TWL/D squads, and I think it's more than a little presumptious to think they'd vote any differently in a mini-tourney.

On top of that, the last time i talked to zeus he said the response to the limit was overwhelmingly positive.

A map change is most likely biased for or against certain ships. Ask yourself why no one really plays 5 warbirds, or 5 javelins competitively. If the map was different, they might be valid (for example, a more open twddish map would probably favor the warbird over the spider, since the former is much more maneuverable and has a better ability to project killing power). The idea that anyone goes into making a map change while trying to NOT change the basing dynamic is laughable.

We're not talking about putting you in shackles, we're talking about increasing the diveristy of ships used in TWLB as a whole. You whine so much about this being a restriction on ship choices, but fail to see how allowing 5 spiders has already restricted the different play styles in TWL already.

the ship settings wouldnt need to be balanced, the teams and therefore the game would naturally be balanced by the fact that both teams have to use the exact same ships.

Escalate points out the current problem with twlb, and it is a problem. This isn't twld or j, where you have five of the same ship, it's LB, it's supposed to be the flexible league, where you need talent in more than one ship inorder to compete. Right now, that idea, that you need a diverse range of player skills, is being horribly neglected. It's the spice of the league, and without it we might as well just change the name to TWLS and be done with it.

[Nickname]

Re: Re: Re: Spider limitations? What a backwards irrelevent rule

Originally posted by Divine Rides
I prefer the 4/1 vs. the 5 spides, but that still is not the point- the point is- it isn't for you to say that 5 spides can't be played, these altruisms on basing are fickle food on a shifting plate fellas- it used to be silly to fly anything other than 4 spides and a jav- before that it was two knuckles and an eight track- ease up on the superlatives- 5 spiders is just another way to play.

Way back it was 3 spiders, then 4 and now 5. However nothing will change anymore, simply put with the base the way it is nothing will ever change, the single best strategy has been tried a million ways and every single team uses it now. I want the map changed personally, i don't like limiting spiders but if the map isn't changed then spiders need to be limited.

And thats not just to make it more fun and competitive, if you don't change the map or limit spiders you will see a quick and steady drop off of players playing in twlb, we're alreayd talking about switiching to 12 teams because there aren't 16 competitive teams, what happens 2 season from now when we can't find 8 solid basing teams?

EDIT: I just read wadis post above mine and he's completly correct. The decisions we make here will be important to the influx of players into twlb. Personally i prefer we change something rather than leave it all alone - basing won't die if we don't do anything but it may begin to fade into obscurity.

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by wadi
Numbers are numbers sufficient. 70 people voted in that poll, and 60% of them voted to strike it. The overwhelming majority of BWC players are on TWL/D squads, and I think it's more than a little presumptious to think they'd vote any differently in a mini-tourney.

On top of that, the last time i talked to zeus he said the response to the limit was overwhelmingly positive.

A map change is most likely biased for or against certain ships. Ask yourself why no one really plays 5 warbirds, or 5 javelins competitively. If the map was different, they might be valid (for example, a more open twddish map would probably favor the warbird over the spider, since the former is much more maneuverable and has a better ability to project killing power). The idea that anyone goes into making a map change while trying to NOT change the basing dynamic is laughable.

We're not talking about putting you in shackles, we're talking about increasing the diveristy of ships used in TWLB as a whole. You whine so much about this being a restriction on ship choices, but fail to see how allowing 5 spiders has already restricted the different play styles in TWL already.



Escalate points out the current problem with twlb, and it is a problem. This isn't twld or j, where you have five of the same ship, it's LB, it's supposed to be the flexible league, where you need talent in more than one ship inorder to compete. Right now, that idea, that you need a diverse range of player skills, is being horribly neglected. It's the spice of the league, and without it we might as well just change the name to TWLS and be done with it.

Sry for not staying true to my word for not saying anything more bout this subject. But I just wanted to point out some parts of your arguement that I think are wrong. BWC was a special tourney that pitted country against country ... there is only a slight correlation with TWL basers. BWC players did NOT have to be TWL or even TWD basers. Yes, most probably were TWD or TWL basers .... HOWEVER, 70 ppl who voted does NOT constitute a significant portion of the basing population. Considering that there are about 16 TWLB squads last season, and assuming an avg of 20 on each squad that actively participate, that makes 320 players that seriously base. 70 compared to a population of 320+ ... plz don't tell me that is representative of basers in general. BWC was a serparate event from TWD AND TWL with different rules ... don't presume to mix them together.

And yes, the map needs to be changed bc making the roof accesible ENCOURAGES more JAV / WB play. In some ways we want to make BASING LESS BIASED towards the minority ships. And 2 entrances means there are MULTIPLE ways to get into the FR. And yes, WE ARE TRYING TO CHANGE BASING DYNAMICS ... to encourage diversity of ships ... AND to encourage the freedom to use whatever strats teams want to use.

And 4 spid won't change ship diversity. Everyone will play 4 spid 1 jav against good teams .... there is no encourging of ship diversity in the plan wadi.

[wadi]

Originally posted by Sufficient
And yes, the map needs to be changed bc making the roof accesible ENCOURAGES more JAV / WB play. In some ways we want to make BASING LESS BIASED towards the minority ships. And 2 entrances means there are MULTIPLE ways to get into the FR. And yes, WE ARE TRYING TO CHANGE BASING DYNAMICS ... to encourage diversity of ships ... AND to encourage the freedom to use whatever strats teams want to use.

And 4 spid won't change ship diversity. Everyone will play 4 spid 1 jav against good teams .... there is no encourging of ship diversity in the plan wadi.

Make a map with your roof idea so it can be evaluated properly. It's never been tried before, and frankly I think it's really silly, but I'll let you throw it out before I rip it down. Statistically, 70 people out of a population of 400, even 700 is still a pretty decent sampling. That being said, after twd is over, lets hold a mass vote (maybe through a bot in ?go twd), and get some more accurate numbers. The ones we have right now say people want the restriction.

I didn't say I wanted 4 spiders, I wanted 3, but I think Div rides, and the other base birds are going to hardcore disagree with you that squads will only play a jav in any case. The fact that you automatically assume all teams will play 4 spiders anyway, the maximum, illustrates why the cap needs to be set in the first place.

[Divine Rides]

I have a thin layer of rust all over my fingers and control button- lemme get reoriented for a minute and play against this line- maybe I'm wrong- i just can't believe it.

[Stabwound]

Originally posted by wadi
Statistically, 70 people out of a population of 400, even 700 is still a pretty decent sampling.

There are a lot more than 700 people that play Trenchwars, and probably half of the people that voted in that topic don't even play basing or don't give 2 shits about it. I really like the idea of having a vote through a bot after TWD is over. Make it so that only people registered to TWDD squads (or maybe only the squads that qualify for TWLB) can vote, and that will be pretty much the most accurate vote you can get on the subject.

[Jason]

?go #basefr13 is the answer.

[Escalate]

just change the fucking map, jesus. everyone knows it needs to be done, nothing drastic just try a small change and see how it goes. have enough balls to make things better.

[Cig Smoke]

I like the 4 spider rule, but i also like the way sufficient has argued. He has a point, the 4 spider rule didnt make anything more diverse, in the end it will be 4 spider 1 jav vs 4 spider 1 jav, instead of 5 spider vs 5 spider. I also think its very unfair for certain squads, who dont have a valid base jav or even a base bird. Its alot ezier for squads like pallies who have PJ, or WR who has/had? NOCKM or thundermare and so on. Sure those squads wont mind so much bc they got a jav who is probably not jsut a little better, but ALOT better then the other teams jav. So basicaly what ur doin is crippling the teams w/o a good jav. 5v5 spidering wasnt always to bad, the elusive/rampage match last season was pretty good, as well as the diso/elusive. The cram can be cracked by the better squad. Sure spastic and mambo's cram are like a rock, but if ur a better squad then them u'll crack it, there are certain strats to breaking a cram. And squads will just Cram with 4 spiders instead of 5, and have a pesky jav lingering waiting for the rite shot for ur teamate to ram and kill u.

On a side note, we played Grapevine today w/ the new 4 spider settings. It was actualy not to bad, cept the fact Culex was there jav. Now he had very weird lag, u know the type where u'd go flying through both shark reps and spider bullets and shoot @ the terr making him warp into a bad spot, or dying. Not saying all squads will ahve a laggy jav, but the ones who do, i think it will benifit. U put DanyalDenyo in base jav, and u got urself a problem.

[SuperMet]

Originally posted by Cig Smoke
I like the 4 spider rule, but i also like the way sufficient has argued. He has a point, the 4 spider rule didnt make anything more diverse, in the end it will be 4 spider 1 jav vs 4 spider 1 jav, instead of 5 spider vs 5 spider. I also think its very unfair for certain squads, who dont have a valid base jav or even a base bird. Its alot ezier for squads like pallies who have PJ, or WR who has/had? NOCKM or thundermare and so on.

Muahahaha NOCKM is now Spastic's. Notice how once we got a jav in NOCKM when Pure helped establish the 4 spider rule. Although for 4 spider Spastic will probably play Zyclon in the bird. He's a God in the birdie.

Sure there are reasons against the 4 spider rule. Many people here want to see drastic changes like a map or settings changes. I disagree though. We all love the basing game we have today and we can't just suddenly scrap it. That would change the entire dynamics and strategy that has already been established. I don't think we want to change from that so fast.

We must first crawl before we can walk or run. That means trying these small changes like 4 spiders, shipchanges, etc. Let's see how these changes would affect basing today, for better or worse. Sure, perhaps maybe the map/settings change might be better in the future, or maybe not. However, we should first see how we can tweak it a little before changing the entire face of basing as we know it.