Points Race

[Verthanthi]

Originally posted by wadi
You can pry the flag dings out of my cold dead hands bitch! :P No seriosuly, am I the only one who anticipates those suckers and dives for the flag in an fr fight?

We had a thread about this once. Jonas has flag ding macros, and I think wah or someone suggested replacing the flag ding with a 2 minute silence ending in a countdown.

[wadi]

That'd be friggin sweet!

[Adman]

i thought flag dings were every 1 minute? regardless of the times the flag has switched teams.

[Verthanthi]

Um, it might be one minute. I'd look into it, but I don't care that much.

[Cig Smoke]

I agree cpt, but u ops can write into the rule specific things. I can tel when a terr is suiciding, i can tell when they are hidding in the sides or in lower base somewhere just milking the time. It dont take a genius to realize it. And again if u got 2 refs per game, atleast per base game. Im sure that if both ref's thought it was hiding it would be hiding. Regardless im game for nething, and like i said the idea mite be a great idea, but i dont think we should change to much in 1 offseason. The way its goin it'll be basicaly a whole new league by next season. and either way i think 2 ref's would be a good thing.

[Epinephrine]

Cig trust me, it doesn't work that way, I know it from experience

What is the rule going to be? What if a team just hangs back and fights 'less hard'? Can you honestly say they were hiding? What's the rule going to be? If you don't get X number of points within a certain time period it's hiding then? What if a team sucks? What if a terrier just likes playing cautiously cause it's near the end of the game?

What if the terrier suicides, thus making it take longer to get back into base and thus making it harder for the opposing team to gain points? Are you going to have a rule the terrier can't die so much or else it's hiding? What if the terrier genuinely sucks?

You cannot make a rule for it. Show me how you can make a rule for it that isn't full of holes and i'll believe it.


As for 2 refs, there aren't enough refs, period. Dock won't allow TWL to hire twl-only staff. And what if both refs have different ideas? You need an odd number, and if we can't get 2 there's no way in hell we can get 3. That's the end of that.

-Epi

[Melt Down]

I really dont like the idea of a points race based on hideing... Im sure there is some way to deal with "hideing"..though i really havent seen alot of it. not even enough to make it worth mentioning...however if it is an problem .. why not put a line like in twjd/twlj except in this case if less than 6 of the team is say below mid base for a specified amount of time it rewards the team that has the flag say 200 or 500 extra points than more for every 10 secs he is still below or something like that... So now the terr is in mid base.. now its up to the other team to attack and get the points they need... its not perfict but im sure others could add to it .. but in my opinion something like this would be way better than points race...I just dont like the idea of how long a match could take...like lets just say 15 mins goes by and team a has 25000 pts and team b has 60000... in 15 mins team a could possibly come back for a win...but in points race for them to win it could take another 20-30 mins to reach the win.. i just dont think there is need for this drastic of a change ...

Just a thought..

[Cig Smoke]

Thats what im saying melt. I dont think a drastic change like this is needed. I never thought hiding was a real problem. Like i said epi, There are rules now that have wholes in them. We saw many last season, but it was improvised. U dont need an od # of refs. IF both refs dont agree on something then it obviosly isnt obvious enuff to call. Why cant u make some <ZH>'s ref some games? the more experienced ones. There is no perfect way to prevent hiding, and again the point race is a "quick" solve for a problem, that could be fixed w/ some thought. There are ppl throwing some ideas out work with them, keep the current system. Once u throw a new system in, its bound to have its kinks and its problems which then they need to be worked out. We dont need a drastic change, basing wasnt that bad for the past how many seasons, there are little things which can be done. Again im not a genius when it comes to bots, or map making or nething, but i can tell when a team isnt fighting or is 1/2 assing it. I think if a team has a lead, they probably dont ahve a terr who sux, or something of those lines. Make the rule not jsut they cant hide, make it they cant half ass it. And whats so wrong w/ runnign the time out? I mean its done in all professional sports. Football they kneel it, NBA they dribble around, hockey the same thing. I mean i think ther has to be standards, and id hate to ahve a team run vs me to win, but it isnt all that wrong. And if it is, it can be fixed w/ simple and better methods then changing the whole system.

[Epinephrine]

The not hiding rule was in full effect in season 5. It was just done wrong over and over and over, and caused a lot of contraversey and a lot of headaches for all. I think in the end the only people who ever got called for it was Vortex and it kicked them out of the league or something. Either way I remember it being a disaster.

As for ZHs hosting games, they don't have bot powers. Only Dock can change that and he's not going to. As for ZH being 'side refs' making calls, I'd say that just because people are on staff doesn't make them qualifed at all to host a game and decide what is hiding and what is not. Not everyone on staff plays base, not everyone knows what hiding is. There are simply too many variables to make it a complete judgement call. IMO either there is no rule for hiding, or there is a change in the game to stop it from ever happening.

Since many people agree that hiding is a problem, then we must create solutions to address the problem.

-Epi

[Zerzera]

I never been in a game where one of the teams refused to fight, but I think there is not really a need to make a rule against it.
Basicly a team should be allowed to work their ass off to get a big enough lead and then sit back.
In football (soccer) some teams start off agressive to get a lead and then defend the entire game hoping they can keep the lead.
Other teams defend the entire game hoping they get one goal to win the match, otherwise they count on a tie.
Personally I don't like the last strategy, but it is a strategy and people should be free to compete with their own sort of strategy.

Some people enjoy 10 minutes of sensation and then just play out the game, some people want it to be a 30 minutes mayhem.
The one thing everyone wants is to win in the end.

The pointrace itself is nice and can be exciting, but I don't think "hiding" is a problem that should be solved.
I mean you also don't make people spawn in flagroom to force them to fight...
I don't like the idea of being forced to play full throttle the entire game.

[Cig Smoke]

Thats what i was trying to say Zerz Of course u cant let 1 squad get a pretty big lead after 10-15 minutes, then run around spawn for the rest, but like u said i didnt notice much running at the end of a game. Ya vortex a few years ago, but since then i dont think i even remember a real acualy "running" situation. I remember squads Milking it till the end.

K thx epi thats all i wanted to know but maybe someone should look into asked the older <ZH>'s about being a "side ref" to help make judgement calls w/ the real reff. That was something ididnt think of, but like u said not all are qualified, but iim sure since P_L does the hiring, he'd know who is a baser and who isnt. I just like the idea of having a 2nd opinion b4 something is called. The idea of having a 2nd reff wasnt just for basing, basing isnt the only league where problems arise.

[Stabwound]

Basing should have used the 'points-race' system from the beginning; it's a lot better and more fair- but people just don't like big changes, I guess.

It's better because:

1) Eliminates running/hiding.
2) Generally more exciting.
3) Gives the losing team the oppertunity to make a come-back and win at any point in the game.

One thing, although, is that when your terrier dies, the other team will usually be able to get at least 10-15k points before you can even get back in the flagroom. If we are going to use the points system, then the target amount of points needs to be higher (which it will be).

[Cig Smoke]

U also got to remember, people now complain bc games last to long, "Aww 30 minutes of basing fuck that" is what alot of ppl say, and we only do 1 round in TWLD/TWLJ bc of the time period it takes. If u have 2 very even basing squads (we'll use pallies and diso) it could take very long for that game to end. Sure it'll speed up the inevidable blowout games but ur still enlonging the great games to more then 30 minutes. Its hard enuff so as it is for some ppl myself including to play leagues in DSB, 3 leagues in TW and another zone. I konw there are other ppl who play more then that if not the same amount as that. I need garenteed set times when games start and then i know 30 minutes and its over. I cant guess and say it'll last 15 minutes, then it lasts 45 minutes.

[Stabwound]

If TWBD uses the planned 100k target, then it won't be any longer, because a full 8v8 game of 30 minutes almost always breaks a 200k total score between the two teams. Any higher than 100k would make the games too long, I agree.

[Galleleo]

But the games last so short, and I will take away the chance for some records, I mean breaking 200 isnt hard, you just have a very close game to 100k and it can take over 30 min, or they last very short and only take 15 min. I like the fixed time better, why should point race be more exciting? the playing doenst change. You just have no clue when it ends.