TWLB Semi-finals Plade vs. Fire Appeal

[Ardour]

This is no different to a laggot playing this game. Lets make up a fictional character Laggot Survivor. To Laggot Survivor, they believe they are dodging the enemies bullets etc but to the opponent they are cheating and abusing a "glitch" within the game called lag. And add a bit of skill to Laggot Survivor and they become extremely frustrating and annoying to kill and their shots appear inches away from their ship. I used to have a solid 230ms - 300ms ping back in the day that would really impact the result of matches in my favour. As a result I refused to take part in TWL because I didn't want to ruin it for others on a competitive level. Also what BIET said, its not how I wanted to win... modem was my only available option of playing the game and I loved twd and couldn't do anything about my lag at the time. But when broadband came to my area I upgraded straight away and people would die when hit and the only thing that changed for me was people stopped complaining about my lag.

A laggy player making crucial eats during an LD match and his team winning because of it... the outcome of that is to set lag limits and lower them etc to reduce this abuse. So the same needs applying to this. Lets imagine that this fictional character Laggot Survivor was on a fictional squad, say Monstrous. And then they were to vs Fire and beat them and during that match, the glitch of lag played a huge part of the reason why they won. Fire could appeal and it would be the exact same thing. If Fire wins, they are happy and don't say anything. If Fire were to lose; "OMFG APPEALLLLLLL, this well known glitch has been abused and its why we lost!!!"

It's shitty, its annoying for the losers, but we have to fix the rules and improve the integrity of the league. If this appeal is approved would be 100% abuse of the people running the league. The trenchwars way to fix this is to program the bots to make it so this glitch can't have the impact it can. The fact that this was well known and not fixed is an issue but again, don't persecute developers that spend so much free time trying only to improve this zone and its functionality.

The TWL rules were built upon every season to make it more solid and this is no different. A decent league op would fix this by seeing that the bots are updated so this couldn't happen in the future. Improve TWL and the league. If this appeal is granted only shows corruption and ruins the integrity of the league.

[Dreamwin]

You are extremely good in painting a negative picture of someone or something whenever you see fit and appealing pretty much every playoff game you lose. The words "cheating" and "abusing" are very strong and gets repeated like 50 times so I want to clarify that what happened is not by any means cheating or abusing.

For whatever its worth, I didn't do (=or according to you "cheat"/"abuse") anything knowingly as you so sorely claim. It was heat of the moment shipchange at the last minute when I saw enemy sharks misstime reps and that there was possible opening. At that particular moment, I honestly didn't even remember that there is a possibility of this happening. Regardless, I think the shot would have got through anyway. Changing to jav as a last resort to break cram has been standard strategy for 20 years. Not to mention, it is extremely risky move to make and only breaks cram roughly 1 out of 10 times. Yesterday it broke the cram at big moment and it is appealed the first time in history because certain group of people lost a game. Even better they accuse me of cheating/abusing and talk about making my team forfeit.

I can imagine it sucks to so barely miss the finals in LB for the first time in million years. Accept the result and move on. GL in LD/LJ Finals.

[roro]

You are an enormous loser lol :laugh:

[2pac]

You are an enormous loser lol :laugh:

Ro a sore loser

[roro]

Ro a sore loser

Why are you spamming several threads? Do you even play the game?

[Vys]

Dreamwin should be banned for abusing a bug he was aware of and fire should be in the finals. It's really that simple.

[2pac]

Why are you spamming several threads? Do you even play the game?

I do play the game and I own your ass fuck boy

[roro]

Hush up now little one

[Iron]

This is no different to a laggot playing this game. Lets make up a fictional character Laggot Survivor. To Laggot Survivor, they believe they are dodging the enemies bullets etc but to the opponent they are cheating and abusing a "glitch" within the game called lag. And add a bit of skill to Laggot Survivor and they become extremely frustrating and annoying to kill and their shots appear inches away from their ship. I used to have a solid 230ms - 300ms ping back in the day that would really impact the result of matches in my favour. As a result I refused to take part in TWL because I didn't want to ruin it for others on a competitive level. Also what BIET said, its not how I wanted to win... modem was my only available option of playing the game and I loved twd and couldn't do anything about my lag at the time. But when broadband came to my area I upgraded straight away and people would die when hit and the only thing that changed for me was people stopped complaining about my lag.

A laggy player making crucial eats during an LD match and his team winning because of it... the outcome of that is to set lag limits and lower them etc to reduce this abuse. So the same needs applying to this. Lets imagine that this fictional character Laggot Survivor was on a fictional squad, say Monstrous. And then they were to vs Fire and beat them and during that match, the glitch of lag played a huge part of the reason why they won. Fire could appeal and it would be the exact same thing. If Fire wins, they are happy and don't say anything. If Fire were to lose; "OMFG APPEALLLLLLL, this well known glitch has been abused and its why we lost!!!"

It's shitty, its annoying for the losers, but we have to fix the rules and improve the integrity of the league. If this appeal is approved would be 100% abuse of the people running the league. The trenchwars way to fix this is to program the bots to make it so this glitch can't have the impact it can. The fact that this was well known and not fixed is an issue but again, don't persecute developers that spend so much free time trying only to improve this zone and its functionality.

The TWL rules were built upon every season to make it more solid and this is no different. A decent league op would fix this by seeing that the bots are updated so this couldn't happen in the future. Improve TWL and the league. If this appeal is granted only shows corruption and ruins the integrity of the league.

Good thing it's just a fantasy example you brought here, imagine having a guy like that on game.. He would be a killing machine. Also imagine to be that player, no matter what you do, how good you play, how amazing scores he gets, the lag card always there to invalidate his play.. sick!

[Dabram]

First of all. Congratulations to all, it was an epic match up. Fire you showed great grit in the 2nd game, after having no chance in the previous 2 games vs plade.
Third game was a great back and forth, both teams not wanting to give up, Mikkiz having a few real unlucky deaths, ogron a 4+ fc escape.
Kess also got the most key tek in the game with fire needing just 6 sec by a great underpush, which no one now will mention anymore..

So the jav glitch imo sucked for both ends. And there's no easy, satisfactory decision possible. And unfortunately there is no rule on this one.
For the future, we need clear rules for these known bugs; jupe, quick shark switches/changes, jav/wb changes etc. Otherwise we risk of having biased calls (in either direction), Rough called for the integrity of the zone being at risk. I think only clear rules can bring that.
BIET dont blame yourself for this right now, it would be great if you can make a fix for future seasons.

Right now there's no clear ruling, and after reviewing no compelling argument that DW wouldnt have broken cram in jav in a normal setting. Its all biased opinion on whoever squad you favor. Let's just all be honest about that.

I'm confident in my squad, when we've been playing in tune we've been the only team that's been smashing other top lines. So I'd be confident in a replay.
However, I'm unsure why, but Fire/zidane didn't appeal for a replay of r3 but for a forfeit. So the verdict should be on that.
In my opinon (it's difficult to be neutral, I had 2 great seasons on power with zid/ogron/ro, and now 2 great seasons with dw as captain, respect zid/dw equally as captains), but a forfeit is way too one-sided of a verdict penalizing Plade extremely, also ignoring completely how we came out on top in that final fr fight, when it mattered most. Whoever is judging should also watch all of that part. If fire is argumenting they were so much stronger and wouldve won, then why did they lose the key fr fight of the 3 games? Imo them not appealing for a replay, shows they don't want (or feel comfortable) about getting a fair win either. Which is what their complaint is about, so theres a bunch of hipocrisy right there in the appeal, too much for my liking.

But yeah in the end of the day I feel sorry for every1 involved, it was an epic battle, deserved a more fitting ending. Goodluck to those having to decide on this. Glad i'm not in your shoes right now, you'll be villified by either party...

[Rab]

However, I'm unsure why, but Fire/zidane didn't appeal for a replay of r3 but for a forfeit.

Yeah it was a really good BO3 otherwise. Anyway, I can answer this.. although it sounds like you don't agree, this is why...

Fire had a solid cram with everyone alive. Plade had most spiders dead, so could not immediately attack. Fire needed about 30s to win. I'd put the odds that Plade could regroup their forces, make a successful cram break, and claim flag within 30s, and also hold flag for 1 minute, at about 1%.

If we did a replay, each team would have about a 50% chance of winning.

Fire ask for a forfeit and not a replay because a 50% chance of winning does not make us whole for the 99% chance of winning we had at the time the cheat occurred. Any attempt to stage a replay that actually represents a 99% advantage is a waste of everyone's time.

[Pressure]

Yeah it was a really good BO3 otherwise. Anyway, I can answer this.. although it sounds like you don't agree, this is why...

Fire had a solid cram with everyone alive. Plade had most spiders dead, so could not immediately attack. Fire needed about 30s to win. I'd put the odds that Plade could regroup their forces, make a successful cram break, and claim flag within 30s, and also hold flag for 1 minute, at about 1%.

If we did a replay, each team would have about a 50% chance of winning.

Fire ask for a forfeit and not a replay because a 50% chance of winning does not make us whole for the 99% chance of winning we had at the time the cheat occurred. Any attempt to stage a replay that actually represents a 99% advantage is a waste of everyone's time.

Odds shouldn’t really be spoken about when the entire arena thought the odds of Fire winning were zero once Plade was up 13-9. Claus got extremely lucky and ate a bomb/mine at point blank range and survived on left side of flag room and kept Fire’s momentum going. I even say in the spec chat “if Fire wins, this moment will go down as the turning point“.

I do not agree that just because you had cram with 25 seconds left the game was “over”. I’ve see crazier comebacks in tighter games.

If you watch closely, dreamwin made the change at a stupid and disadvantageous moment, as Fire’s cram was already breaking. Based on the footage, I do think Plade would have entered flagroom regardless of the jav.

I still haven’t taken a stance. It would feel very dirty playing TWLB finals against the team that did not reach 15 minutes in the third round of semis, but no one in this game wants to watch Fire continue to slander Plade and attempt to defame the integrity of the season, so I really does not know what the right decision is, which is why I proposed a complete redo of the Bo3.

When Cobra had the opportunity to make it to finals due to a forfeit, we refused, and insisted on rescheduling with Dice. I know Fire must be hurting right now, and if put in the same position I’d be fuming. I’m disappointed that dreamwin did what he did, but I’m yielding to the TWL ops to decide what is right. However, I simply cannot imagine personally feeling good about or deserving of playing in the finals unless I actually won semi-finals to get there... no matter the circumstances.

[Dabram]

That's why I said it's just unfortunate this bug exists, you can try and argue dw wouldn't have made that shot still, or that we wouldn't have broken in.
And we'll argue your cram wasnt that solid all games, and your sharks were alrdy out of tune when we almost broke in 5 sec before that shot. A jav was the right choice, and not illegal, just annoyingly for both sides, bugged. Maybe more so for us, if anything is granted your way.

I think we all just wish this would've had a normal outcome either way.

The appeal you guys are making is a huge reach and risk your taking. I would've gone for the middle ground.

[zidane]

A lot of semantics and pussy footing but the reality is dreamwin has abused an exploit in a moment of desperation. He would not have even been alive and able to take advantage of as he says... "sharks misstime reps" if he had not bypassed the 5 second death cooldown. The video says it all, let me know when you think it's OK to be an invisible jav killing 6 players in cram. Being invisible is NOT a game mechanic, this was a player exploiting a bug to ruin a game out of desperation and robbing his team the chance of winning the game fairly.

[Ardour]

Good thing it's just a fantasy example you brought here, imagine having a guy like that on game.. He would be a killing machine. Also imagine to be that player, no matter what you do, how good you play, how amazing scores he gets, the lag card always there to invalidate his play.. sick!

haha yup.
I hope you destroy Fire in finals! The lesser of two evils for sure.