Bad job Pascone... bad job...

[Zerzera]

A simple forum search on "jupe" will give you more threads, I thought I should point this post out.

Stab, ye keep bringing this up like it's some random bug that turns up through no fault of anyone playing. It is an issue that appears directly from a known situation. Avoid the situation, avoid the problem.

To be as blunt as possible. If your own squaddies can't work out how not to jupe the flag, then you deserve to lose.

If it's a problem that can't be fixed. Deal with it. It should be regarded as something like people lagging through mines, or detaching into mines. It's a fact of the game.

Here's two tips on how to avoid the situation
- Don't touch a yellow flag - only people who see a blue flag should touch it, otherwise, bugger off
- Don't suicide at high speed into mines near a flag you don't own.

Cheers,

leroy.

And the discussion:

Or dont lose base all game :P Nah JK

but on a serious note, IF this happens and causes the game will it be replayed or what?

Citing a previous instance where this has affected the outcome of a match in TWL-B.

Nope.

And I don't think it should, or else you're gunna get calls for replaying every match that gets remotely close because of jupes that happen all throughout the match.

Cheers,

leroy.

[Noah]

You forget that it's what your client sees, you shouldn't rush into the flag. It has to do with the speed and your corpse. Just like a bomb is still a close-bomb after you died.
The real jupe is when someone touches a yellow flag, then the person who 'juped' it cannot claim it either because to his client it's yellow too.
I never juped a flag after I found out about this, it's something you can avoid. So the comparison isn't flawed.

http://forums.trenchwars.org/showthread.php?t=10318

You still compared a feature to a bug in terms of validity, if staff made sure that everyone knew about such a possible game breaking bug, then your argument would stand, and this entire thread wouldn't be valid anymore.

I don't often search the forums on games I play for the names of bugs I don't even know about. When you know about the bug, it's easier to find info because you know what to look for.

That link is from 2004, if a thread from 2004 is the official information on a game bug that cannot be resolved, then I'd say that information is slim at best.

To the post by leroy: If the flag gets juped to you getting repelled into a mine, what then? Nice repel, you took advantage of a flaw in the game and won?

PS: I'm always angry on the forums these days, discussing this with you zerz, is something civil and nice, you do come across with some decent points. If the TWL ops had shown the same dedication as you on the matter, things would've looked better already.

[Zerzera]

That link is from 2004, if a thread from 2004 is the official information on a game bug that cannot be resolved, then I'd say that information is slim at best.

They should put it in the license agreement? 98% of the players in TWL never looked into the rules, and 1% of the ones that did, only read it because they were looking for a way to get a replay in some way...
It's common knowledge by now what a flagjupe is to anyone that actually plays basegames beside TWL matches.

[Zerzera]

You still compared a feature to a bug in terms of validity, if staff made sure that everyone knew about such a possible game breaking bug, then your argument would stand, and this entire thread wouldn't be valid anymore.

I don't often search the forums on games I play for the names of bugs I don't even know about. When you know about the bug, it's easier to find info because you know what to look for.

That link is from 2004, if a thread from 2004 is the official information on a game bug that cannot be resolved, then I'd say that information is slim at best.

To the post by leroy: If the flag gets juped to you getting repelled into a mine, what then? Nice repel, you took advantage of a flaw in the game and won?

PS: I'm always angry on the forums these days, discussing this with you zerz, is something civil and nice, you do come across with some decent points. If the TWL ops had shown the same dedication as you on the matter, things would've looked better already.

Ok, leroys comparisons were a bit better than mine :P And I do agree that staff should've been able to handle this better. There are at least a few of them that are around long enough to know about this 'bug'.

[Reaver]

flag jupe was been a part of basing ever since time race started. and from previous twl seasons, there are numerous incidents regarding flag jupe. So how is saying 'you should know what a flag jupe is" to people participating in TWLB ridiculous? its like the equivalent of saying "you should know about close bomb in jav duels" to people playing in LJ.

your appeal got denied not solely because flag jupe is part of the game. its what happened after the jupe that determined the denial.

your squad basically gave up on cramming yourself by sending 3,4,5 players to the flag, instead of trying to hold the cram properly, or at least with 7 players. It's true, that a 7 player cram is still weaker than a full cram, but it would have done MUCH better than a 4 player cram. You would have held BC out long enough for the juped flag to recover its status and claim it. Like i said in my previous post, if you guys ignored the jupe and held the cram for as long as you can and didnt let BC in, and if BC still won when you are holding the cram, the result of the appeal would have be favouring you guys. The term "flag jupe" alone will NOT determine how an appeal will be decided, we TWL Ops also have to consider the situation, the aftermath, and the result as well.

The thing is, is that from 14:20 on, when the flag was juped, nobody from Basingcrew touched the flag once after 14:20, it simply kept counting time for them even though people backed out of the cram to hover over the flag. Had the rule that you guys put in place now, been in place then, then we would have at least had the opportunity to to win, but because of the server glitch we didn't have the opportunity. The only thing we could have possibly done, was intentionally let them in, let them touch the flag and then kill them. By the time they entered it was approximately 14:40 +-5 seconds, at that point it would have been too risky to let them touch the flag and then attempt to kill them so I believe the general consensus was to hold the flag tight and hope it would switch over before time ends.

The rule since the incident has changed, and whether people want to admit it or not, the rule changed solely because of that incident. I can't stress this point enough, if people feel as though the glitch was a legitimate part of the game, then why did the process in how jupe's are handled change? I can understand if you guys feel like jupes are legitimate, and you tell hosts not to intervene, let the jupe ride out, so to speak. But to say that jupes are legitimate to us, only to turn around and act differently, telling hosts that they need to intervene to stop jupes is completely opposite of how our appeal was received.

Edit: All I'm saying is that if you feel like what happened to us was a legitimate part of the game then why is it NOT legitimate when or if it happens in future LB games? Why must there be intervention in the future despite there being nothing for our game.

[Noah]

They should put it in the license agreement? 98% of the players in TWL never looked into the rules, and 1% of the ones that did, only read it because they were looking for a way to get a replay in some way...
It's common knowledge by now what a flagjupe is to anyone that actually plays basegames beside TWL matches.

If it actually was any official information on how to deal with it and what it was, then this thread wouldn't be here.

By common knowledge, you mean all of these players who has posted in this thread, admitting that they had no knowledge of it? Just because you know something doesn't mean that everyone else knows it.

You do post a valid point there tho, alot of players gives a shit about the official rulings. Responsible captains will look over the rules, notice it and tell their squads.

In this case, I'm sure epi would notice it in the rules, and pass on the information. If he didn't and it stood in the rules then Syndicate could cry themselves a river.

Edit due to new replies since I started to write this at work:
Seems like this discussion is drawing to an end, and I'm sure staff will make sure to deal with jupes efficiently from now on.

Syndicate, take this as you took one from the team, and by the team I mean zone. We as the player community can help this take place for the next TWL season, by helping staff spreading the message and make this more common knowledge.

Sucks to see a good squad like yourself to take the hit, but atleast you won't dissolve over it

[Nethila]

holy shit, do you guys read?

i said it before in both of my previous posts, and i will say it again.

just "flag jupe" will NOT determine the result of an appeal. We also consider the circumstances, the situation of the flag jupe, and what happens after it.

if theres a future game that got messed up by flag jupe, twl ops will still research around how it happens, when, and what happens afterwards, before deciding on whether to approve, or deny the appeal.

Epi and reaver, both of you are staffs, you should know better that we didnt just go "oh, flag jupe? too bad, sucks for syndicate" and then denied your appeal. we contacted the hosts, we read the game logs, trying to see the big picture, instead of that tiny detail of "flag not changing".

As of now, we arent the ones that are concentrating on "oh, its just a flag jupe, appeal denied." it is YOU guys that are constantly going "its a flag jupe, give us a replay, i dont care what happened." Please stop.

[Noah]

So you are blaming them for not acting in the right way during a jupe, when no official information has been passed on what to do when it happens?

[eelam <tw>]

re

Bram does have a good point, REMATCH FOR DISOBLIGE!! . And also, what people still dont realize is flag jupes are caused by teammates stupidly ramming into mines. And if you fear being repped into a mine than you play it accordingly. You never see top tier squads get the flag juped, Dice, Pandora, -Final-, Spastic. Jupes come from a lack of understanding the game, which puts the onus on Syndicate for not knowing the basing game that well.

[pascone]

Imo Synd's appeal is kinda shitty compared to ours. I remember winning some great games with flag juping (hi zerz), but yeah it should at least be in the rules clearly that a flag-jupe doesn't merit a replay.
I don't like to make a big e-fight over a turned down appeal, since like I said we didn't really prac much this TWL season so we have ourselves to blame more than staffmembers covering each other up. Then again it's kinda wrong that I am capable of some self-criticism but staff refuses to look at themselves as failable. And our loss could now pretty much come to cost us LB playoffs.

Anyway, let me try to hijack this thread to add some more spice to it, this season lacks some fighting anyway, and what's better than to point your arrows at staff, right? This is the appeal I send in on 1 april:



(Oh, please run it over with your awesome spellings- and commars-check mr. Metal Headz, then call us crappy basers)

After a week of wondering if it's even being looked at, I get the same short 'it's been turned down' on the TWL site. After asking for any reasoning, I get send to Pascone. Unfortunately I didn't log it, but he basically turned it down because:
1) Supposedly Igno should've told us captains to still accept him on TWL roster --> This is ridicilous because Kim was well-capable of also ticking that little box that says TWL roster, and he would've had no reason to cause confusion by not doing that. If he wasn't capable of actually helping Igno out completely he shouldn't have done anything in the first place, because there was no way he could have known if we would be able to put Igno on our TWL roster in time for TWL-weekend a day later.
2) The main argument was that good captains check their TWL roster at least every friday before TWL weekend. Not the strongest argument imo, because it raises the question why you would check your roster as a captain in the middle of TWL when as squadcaptains you've done nothing that would change it? Apparantly there is no answer to that question and by asking this to pascone, you just aggrivate him and he'll continue the conversation by calling you bad and incapable captains compared to himself, because it's so easy and logical to just check your roster.
So basically there's an un-written rule that covers up staffers mistakes, and as a squadcaptain you should check your TWL roster at least every friday before TWL weekend, because in the end you're responsible for anything that happens to it, even if it's screwed up by a staffer outside your squad.

Today I still fail to see that logic. Staff: "Oh we screwed up your roster? Well maybe YOUR SQUAD should've checked your own roster to notice that we screwed up a little earlier!"

But yeah like I said, worse then the shitty reasoning to turn down our appeal is the way pascone communicates, he's just an asshole and had no reason to start talking about how he is a better captain in the argument.. you're a TWL staffer, act like it?
Anyway I agree with NN, staff needs to learn how to communicate with the players, or at least the captains. Right now you simply do not show any respect by not even taking the moment to write a response in the same manner as I write my appeal, and instead think it's enough to just leave the squads with a simple 'it's been turned down' on the website. Apparantly in the situation right no there's no reasoning needed from staff to turn an appeal down, plus there is a rule that says: 'There is no appealing a final judgment', which puts you as a captain in an even shittier position.

it's your responsibilty as a captain to check your roster. if you noticed that someone on your squad changed from igno to igno <ZH> which you told me you did, how long would it take to CONFIRM that everything is right. for all you knew, another captain added him.. i really don't get why it's so hard to check your roster

there's no need to constantly call me out here. you gave me more than enough attitude.

[Reaver]

holy shit, do you guys read?

i said it before in both of my previous posts, and i will say it again.

just "flag jupe" will NOT determine the result of an appeal. We also consider the circumstances, the situation of the flag jupe, and what happens after it.

if theres a future game that got messed up by flag jupe, twl ops will still research around how it happens, when, and what happens afterwards, before deciding on whether to approve, or deny the appeal.

Epi and reaver, both of you are staffs, you should know better that we didnt just go "oh, flag jupe? too bad, sucks for syndicate" and then denied your appeal. we contacted the hosts, we read the game logs, trying to see the big picture, instead of that tiny detail of "flag not changing".

As of now, we arent the ones that are concentrating on "oh, its just a flag jupe, appeal denied." it is YOU guys that are constantly going "its a flag jupe, give us a replay, i dont care what happened." Please stop.

I apologize, it's our fault for not recognizing that you guys were basing your decision on so many aspects when you guys made it so painstakingly clear in your response on why our appeal was denied. Oh, that's right we had to start a thread and cause all this unnecessary drama to even warrant a response.

See here's the real problem, there was no communication, you guys didn't give us any information other than the appeal was denied, the host that actually hosted the match made it clear that at the very least he was in favor of a partial replay and then when the appeal was denied we were given no response. If only it were as obvious why you guys denied our appeal as it is obvious that everybody knows what a flag jupe is and what causes it.

Just for the record I'd really like to know what kind of situation warrants a replay due to flag jupe, even though we're obviously not going to have one as severe in the future hosts will prevent or lessen any severe flag jupe now that we've been the example. I mean, if a situation where we couldn't have won by any means other than leaving the enemy into the FR, letting them touch the flag and then killing them only to have an even less opportunity to win because of a game glitch, doesn't warrant at least a partial replay then what does. I'd be totally behind the decision had the flag jupe switched over anytime before the 15minute mark but because it didn't we didn't even have the opportunity to bring the game back. Hell I'd be behind the decision if the flag juped in the first minute and the rest of the game went off without a hitch, but because it ended the game, the last 40 seconds of the game and they won the last 40 seconds solely because of the glitch I disagree.

[Ephemeral]

To WHom It May Concern;
I, Ephemeral, being of sound mind and body, would like to eschew obfuscation introduced in this thread. Several of those whom posted in the above mentioned thread have called out “Eph” instead of “Epi”. "Epi" is the proper short-hand for Epinephrine and "Eph" is the proper short-hand for Ephemeral.

[Displaced]

it's your responsibilty as a captain to check your roster. if you noticed that someone on your squad changed from igno to igno <ZH> which you told me you did, how long would it take to CONFIRM that everything is right. for all you knew, another captain added him.. i really don't get why it's so hard to check your roster

there's no need to constantly call me out here. you gave me more than enough attitude.

wait what?

its our responsibility as captains to know when a twl op adds people to our roster and not to our twl roster without telling us about it?

at the very least, we shouldve been informed, alternatively, the op shouldve added him to both our normal roster and our twl roster.

(im not gonna speak for the other captains here, but i dont check our roster at my leisure, i look at it only when we recruit or axe someone)

[Noah]

wait what?

its our responsibility as captains to know when a twl op adds people to our roster and not to our twl roster without telling us about it?

at the very least, we shouldve been informed, alternatively, the op shouldve added him to both our normal roster and our twl roster.

(im not gonna speak for the other captains here, but i dont check our roster at my leisure, i look at it only when we recruit or axe someone)

When there are 3 captains in a squad, and small stuff like changing someone from normal name to staff name, you trust each other to do a simple task like that without fucking up something. If every cap were to recheck each slightest thing done by anyone in the squad, then the job of being a cap would be a lot harder.

So yeah, I'm backing disp up here.

[Epinephrine]

holy shit, do you guys read?

i said it before in both of my previous posts, and i will say it again.

just "flag jupe" will NOT determine the result of an appeal. We also consider the circumstances, the situation of the flag jupe, and what happens after it.

if theres a future game that got messed up by flag jupe, twl ops will still research around how it happens, when, and what happens afterwards, before deciding on whether to approve, or deny the appeal.

Epi and reaver, both of you are staffs, you should know better that we didnt just go "oh, flag jupe? too bad, sucks for syndicate" and then denied your appeal. we contacted the hosts, we read the game logs, trying to see the big picture, instead of that tiny detail of "flag not changing".

As of now, we arent the ones that are concentrating on "oh, its just a flag jupe, appeal denied." it is YOU guys that are constantly going "its a flag jupe, give us a replay, i dont care what happened." Please stop.

Actually Neth we do read. But did you even read my posts? I have consistantly stated that I am not a captain nor am I asking for a replay at this moment because in the grand scheme of things it won't matter for our TWLB season.

What I AM saying is that, there is still no public policy on what happens when there is a flag jupe. We've already established that a flag jupe can happen accidentally (i.e. getting repelled into a mine, although that could be argued as taking advantage of a game bug) so you cannot just blame people for not knowing how to prevent such things because sometimes it can be unpreventable.

If there is ever a flag jupe in a future game, what happens? What should the players in the game do? How can we minimize the effect this has in the future?


Should players just randomly hope that the host is paying attention (because you know... hosts sometimes aren't paying full attention to a game as ANYONE who has ever captained would know) to reset the flag, or should captains immediately notify the host or should teams just not bother touching the flag at all, defend as if they had the flag and then appeal afterwards because they will win 100% if they lose?

Please have a public policy on this, reflected in at least a policy change (not necessarily a rule change) that everyone will know about. Don't just put it on this thread, but make it known to the public about what to do.


And no Neth, in the future, when anyone gets a one line 'appeal was denied' on the website that really does let people assume that you guys just pulled the appeal out of nowhere.