Muhammad cartoon row intensifies

[SkiTzO]

Someone tell me why there is conflict in Palastine, bosnia, sudan, malaysia, chechnya, india, Sir Lanka, indonesia, east africa, west africa and central asia. Are the muslims the victims everywhere, is their holy war in these places justified, WTF is going on?

[404 Not Found]

In my talking with a client at work yesterday, who is Muslim, I asked his opinion of the reactions taking place in a global scale. His point was that the teachings he has been exposed to do not preach the death and martyr reactionaries we see daily on TV. His explanation was that these so called Muslims are not following the Koran; they are reading and following the teachings of Muhammad. The Koran is completely different and that these radicals are taking upon themselves to take Muhammad’s words as the truth over the Koran in a hope to start a Muslim movement similar to the Taliban...in other words...they are extremists!

There are radicals within every religion and it just seems that the majority of what we see in regards to the Mid-East countries from our media are leaning towards this extremism. This is not to say that all Muslims are all the same, as that is just being ignorant.

With political leaders such as Iran’s smiling idiot...as I forget what his name actually is, how can one in any government talk and mediate with a personality such as his.

To sum it up, Jordan released the cartoons in there press and more or less told the rest of the Arab nations that they are being ridiculous about the entire issue. My hats off to Jordan! I just hope there are no more suicide bombers waiting to blow up wedding parties again within their country.

[Benno]

Most nauseatingly liberal forum thread of the month. Assuming every ideology is inherently peaceful is probably more dangerous than reverse. Everyone thinks they're willing to bend the society they live to accept everyone and everything till it comes to an issue that is important to them. But no matter how much you legislate a body of people, ideologies that essentially in contradict will remain like oil in water. Speach can be truncated till every word must be androgynous PC bullshit spat through clenched teeth, but that won't change anything. I don't understand why the people who take such great offense to the idea that islam just might not be as peaceful as advertised, yet readily acknowledge and embrace the fact that other religions have in the past been directly tied to violence.

Additionally, consider this:

The muslims that are your friends and neighbors will have public opinion agasint them if they are precieved as having special treatment. I know from experience that nobody likes a minority who gets prefrence; this is true regardless if that prefrence is deserved (which I believe it never is) or not, thats just how public opinion works. The argument that the comics themselves will create negative anti-muslim sentiment is much overstated, since it a reflection of general sentiments in the first place and less damaging than the reaction people will have if a full retraction and apology is issued.

[Centurion]

Go back 1,000 years. Christians seized Jerusalem from the Muslims in the first crusade, and slaughtered every Muslim in the city, with the idea that to kill and infidel was the path to heaven. So I guess Christianity wasn't all cake and sprinkles then either.

Nope, never said it was. ALL fundamentalist religion is bad, but Islam doesn't get a free pass.

Our media is just as biased as Al-Jazeera, and anti-West demonstrations make better news than anti-terrorist.

I don't personally believe that Western Media is equally as biased as Al-Jazeera. That's not to say they don't have their own agenda's and ways of doing things.

But there is a REASON those very few and far between Anti-Terror demonstrations don't make the news like the Radical Pro-Terror ones do:

SIZE AND SCOPE

90,000 people burning effigy's of Western leaders and Flags, deservedly draws alot more attention than 2,000 people in a town square denouncing Terror. Chances are that town square is in a Westernized Nation anyways, as links like TK's even stated.

Also, people seem to be talking about poverty as an excuse for terrorism. I just thought I'd mention that the July 7th terrorists that bombed London were born and raised in Britain, taking advantage of all the benefits our society has to offer, and then blowing themselves up in a demonstration against our way of life - after living it for their lives. I believe the man who blew up King's Cross was actually a schoolteacher in Leeds. So it is not just the Muslims who live in Arab countries that can be radical.

I cannot possibly stress the above enough.
It shows how hardcore these Extremists really are in their views, and how powerful the influence of Islamic spiritual leaders such as Imams/Clerics can be.

Also, last I checked alot of Persian Gulf countries, no matter how Westernized, even countries that are fairly Conservative Islamic, are FAR from poor.

Of course the situation is far, far more complicated than anything any of us have mentioned, but these are the facts as simply as they can be put.

It's good to know some people here still use some common sense.
The situation Worldwide is super complicated down to the individual level by things none of us can address. Traumatic experiences in childhood's when, say, some kid saw some of the carnage of the 1991 Gulf War and didn't fully understand it.
But there are still certain factors that influence things heavily.

I'm just trying my best to sum this all up.

I do NOT believe all Muslims are Terrorists, that would be like someone calling me a Druglord and saying all Latino's are involved in smuggling because it happens to be widespread in South and Central America.

But I will state this again and again until someone realizes it: a vast quantity of Muslims worldwide look to these Imams and Clerics for guidance, Islam emphasizes this alot more so than other religions.
That presents ALOT of room for abuse and sadly, alot of them do. People are manipulated by their Faith and as a result end up cheering on a Suicide Bomber as a hero because they likely don't fully understand the nature of the struggle.
They are told 'These Devil's are coming to destroy our Religion and wage a Holy Crusade against Muslims, just like back in the day!' and it resonates with alot of people in these Third World places like Somalia.
It also resonates with youth in Wealthy and well off nations as well.

Hell, we see it here in the States with Lefty Extremists sporting Che Guevera T-Shirts when most of them don't know Shit about who the man really was.
They might support some of the perceived ideals but they usually don't go down to Nicaragua to join Anti-Government Militias.

Whereas overseas, kid's are drawn from places like Saudi Arabia and go off to Fight. Why do you think this is? It certainly couldn't have anything to do with Faith, could it?

If I recall correctly, bin Laden comes from a wealthy Family, his dad was a master at something I hold dear, Architecture. And he made a small Fortune for him and his 12+ Wives or whatever.
Osama himself was involved in the family business, I believe!
He still traded it all to go fight Soviet 'Infidel' invaders in Afghanistan.
This is NOT a small, isolated problem where there are like 500 guys worldwide that are real Assholes and that's all.

There need to be fundamental changes in the way Clerics can incite Violence and problems so easily. People need to stop being manipulated by them so readily.
That's not to say steps should be taken like where in the U.K. I believe, they are outlawing 'hate-speech'. I don't know about all that jazz.

But something needs to change, because if a Newspaper Cartoon is causing such uproar and getting radicals' underwear in such a knot to the point they walk into News Bureau's brandishing Assault Weapons and making threats, then this situation is still a curled Snake, waiting to strike again.

Sorry for the insanely long post, everyone. :P

[Epinephrine]

As an example of how stupid your post is, I will edit it in a way that perhaps you may understand how stupid it is. Note that I may not actually believe in my edits, but I wanted to show you how stupid overgeneralization is, and how you're perpetuating it:

Nope, never said it was. ALL nationalism is bad, America doesn't get a free pass.


I don't personally believe that the BBC is equally as biased as American TV news. That's not to say they don't have their own agenda's and ways of doing things.

But there is a REASON those very few and far between Anti-War demonstrations don't get the same urgancy of coverage like President Bush's speeches on terrorism do:

SIZE AND SCOPE

1 really important man talking about invading other countries and killing people we don't understand deservedly draws alot more attention than 100,000 people (although the police say a lot less) in a town square denouncing the War on Terror. Chances are that town square is on the Liberal East Coast anyways.



I cannot possibly stress the above enough.
It shows how hardcore these Extremists really are in their views, and how powerful the influence of Christian spiritual leaders such as James Dobson of Family Values fame can be.

Also, last I checked alot of American states, no matter how non-flyover, even states that are fairly Conservative, are FAR from poor.




It's good to know some people here still use some common sense.
The situation in America is super complicated down to the individual level by things none of us can address. Traumatic experiences in childhood's when, say, some kid who saw 9/11 and didn't fully understand it. But there are still certain factors that influence things heavily.

I'm just trying my best to sum this all up.

I do NOT believe all Americans are warmonggers, that would be like someone calling me a Druglord and saying all Latino's are involved in smuggling because it happens to be widespread in South and Central America.

But I will state this again and again until someone realizes it: a vast quantity of Americans look to these preachers religious leaders for guidance, the Christian president who invokes god in every speech emphasizes this alot more so than other Western countries.
That presents ALOT of room for abuse and sadly, alot of them do. People are manipulated by their Faith and as a result end up cheering on attacking third world countries as great because they likely don't fully understand the nature of the struggle.
They are told 'These Devil's are coming to destroy our country and wage a Holy Crusade against America, just like back in 9/11!' and it resonates with alot of people in these backwater states like Alabama.
It also resonates with youth in Wealthy and well off states as well.

Hell, we see it here in the USA with Right-wing rich people join political associations supporting the war when most of them don't know Shit about what war really is.
They might support some of the perceived ideals but they usually don't go down to Iraq to join the US army... they leave that to the poor people who need a job.

Here in America, kid's are drawn from places like the religious heartland and go off to Fight. Why do you think this is? It certainly couldn't have anything to do with Faith, could it?

If I recall correctly, George Bush comes from a wealthy Family, his dad was a former President. And he made a small Fortune for himself. Bush himself was involved in the family business, I believe! Still heo hid from the Vietnam war when things got tough! This is NOT a small, isolated problem where there are like 500 guys worldwide that are real Assholes and that's all, although congress does have about that much who have never fought in their lives nor do they have children in the military, there are in fact many Americans who think all muslims should be knocked back some.

There need to be fundamental changes in the way the church in America can incite Violence and problems so easily. People need to stop being manipulated by them so readily. That's not to say steps should be taken like where in Canada I believe, they actually decided not to go to Iraq and where religion isn't important in politics. I don't know about all that jazz.

But something needs to change, because if the French not supporting the war can cause such uproar and getting radicals' underwear in such a knot to the point they walk into McDonalds and demand Freedom Fries, then this situation is still a curled Snake, waiting to strike again.

Sorry for the insanely long post, everyone. :P

[Centurion]

Bwahahhahahahahahahahhah...

Ice T - Colors.mp3 dedicated to you, Epi!
Your true Colors show and it was only a matter of time.
It should have been more apparent to me the giant Iceberg lurking beneath the small tip exposed above water.

I could not Fucking care less for your canned, Generic Anti-America rant, because it's gotten to the point it all sounds the Fucking same everywhere it rears it's annoying head. The repetitive crying and moaning 'Rawr!! You are all Evil Warmonger Illiterate Rednecks!!!1one'.

It seems some Asshole always derails any discussion and turns it into 'USA SUX'.
Actually, it's quite flattering.

Your 'counterpoints'(and I hesitate to call them this because Counterpoints generally need to be based on fact/reason) are piss poor.

I'll address one real quick...
When someone files a lawsuit saying 'God sux!!!1 Get it off our pledge and Currency!!1' Right Wing Baptist nutjobs, however stupid they may be, tend NOT to go behead someone or threaten to blow up CNN for giving it media attention.

You can sit there being an Apologist for radical Islam, however, most of the world disagree's with you and DOES see a problem.
But I suppose ignorance is bliss, huh?

I take enough satisfaction from the fact that you are in an extreme minority of Far Far FAR Left Liberal thinking(another term I'll use loosely) and the rest of the World generally recognize's the danger that you choose to dismiss. Just KNOWING how riled up that gets you folk's and watching you voice your frustration's angrily on Web Forums is more satisfying than 20 'Photochop TW People' threads.

But yeah, this is pointless, it seems you are incapable of rational debate or discussion without being a Flamer at every opportunity and trying to turn this into another Personal Flamewar or a 'I hate you for being from (INSERT COUNTRY HERE)' thread.
That shit belongs in Trash Talk under the 'NORWAY SUX!!1ONE' and I'm not going to be lured into it.

I apologize for helping Epi derail this and try to turn it into more Nationalistic/Anti-Nationalist Bullshit.

[Epinephrine]

Unfortunately you're a bit stupider than I thought. My attempts at trying to show you how your overgeneralization was just silly has backfired on me. I like how you didn't realize I just changed a few words around from your ridiculous post, or at least didn't realize that I was making a satiric point on your non-sensical rant. But I guess ignorance is bliss right?

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

I could not Fucking care less for your canned, Generic Anti-America rant, because it's gotten to the point it all sounds the Fucking same everywhere it rears it's annoying head. The repetitive crying and moaning 'Rawr!! You are all Evil Warmonger Illiterate Rednecks!!!1one'.

It's not repetitive crying when people decide to conveniently reduce arguments into an "Anti-America rant." Just because someone's arguing the other side of the coin doesn't mean that they don't love this country. Look, I love America. I like my job and I like my standard of living and I like countless other things that (at a base level) this country stands for. But I also don't like the way our government conducts itself in a lot of ways. I should be able to express these views intelligently without someone labelling me, but it seems that when there IS no GOOD rebuttal, the old "well, you just hate America" argument arises. To me, it seems like the political equivalent of "yo mamma"--something that is seen as a Get Out of Jail Free card or verbal whiteout. It doesn't win arguments, nor does it back up your view.

I agree, it's just as wrong for left-wingers to pull out the "hatemongering illiterate rednecks" card, but at a certain point, don't you think it's sometimes warranted? No one likes to be called stupid, but a lot of those being called stupid aren't expressing themselves in intelligent ways. If you want to be respected as a thinking individual, you have to prove it.

I'll address one real quick...
When someone files a lawsuit saying 'God sux!!!1 Get it off our pledge and Currency!!1' Right Wing Baptist nutjobs, however stupid they may be, tend NOT to go behead someone or threaten to blow up CNN for giving it media attention.

No, right-wingers have Pat Robertson for that. Remember how he thought we should just go ahead and assassinate Hugo Chavez? I'm not saying that Hugo Chavez is a good person (he obviously isn't), but for every grandstanding Islamic extremist, there's a corresponding Christian extremist.

[Centurion]

It's not repetitive crying when people decide to conveniently reduce arguments into an "Anti-America rant." Just because someone's arguing the other side of the coin doesn't mean that they don't love this country. Look, I love America. I like my job and I like my standard of living and I like countless other things that (at a base level) this country stands for. But I also don't like the way our government conducts itself in a lot of ways. I should be able to express these views intelligently without someone labelling me, but it seems that when there IS no GOOD rebuttal, the old "well, you just hate America" argument arises. To me, it seems like the political equivalent of "yo mamma"--something that is seen as a Get Out of Jail Free card or verbal whiteout. It doesn't win arguments, nor does it back up your view.

I agree, it's just as wrong for left-wingers to pull out the "hatemongering illiterate rednecks" card, but at a certain point, don't you think it's sometimes warranted? No one likes to be called stupid, but a lot of those being called stupid aren't expressing themselves in intelligent ways. If you want to be respected as a thinking individual, you have to prove it.


No, right-wingers have Pat Robertson for that. Remember how he thought we should just go ahead and assassinate Hugo Chavez? I'm not saying that Hugo Chavez is a good person (he obviously isn't), but for every grandstanding Islamic extremist, there's a corresponding Christian extremist.

Epi, I didn't realize you changed a few words? What?
I saw the point you were TRYING to make and decided it was not worth getting into one of 'Those' arguments, because they genuinely annoy me.
How is that hard to understand?


Conc, I agree wholeheartedly with your Post and never said dissent or disagreement was bad.
I'm just tired of the Generic Anti-America rants because no matter what forum you go to, it ALWAYS looks the same, the EXACT same.

There's plenty of shit about this Country that agitates me, funny you should mention Pat Robertson because he is one of those things.
But he's free to say stupid shit just as we all are, what he is NOT free to do is act on it in a Violent/Illegal manner.
I have yet to see anyone from Christian Coalition threaten to shoot Wolf Blitzer. And for as much as I hate him, Jerry Falwell has yet to behead someone for not watching 'The 700 Club'.

It's rather hypocritical to berate someone for 'generalizing' and then pull the 'STFU FAT IGNORANT DUMB WARMONGER AMERIKKANZ' card.

[Epinephrine]

Epi, I didn't realize you changed a few words? What?
I saw the point you were TRYING to make and decided it was not worth getting into one of 'Those' arguments, because they genuinely annoy me.
How is that hard to understand?


Conc, I agree wholeheartedly with your Post and never said dissent or disagreement was bad.
I'm just tired of the Generic Anti-America rants because no matter what forum you go to, it ALWAYS looks the same, the EXACT same.

There's plenty of shit about this Country that agitates me, funny you should mention Pat Robertson because he is one of those things.
But he's free to say stupid shit just as we all are, what he is NOT free to do is act on it in a Violent/Illegal manner.
I have yet to see anyone from Christian Coalition threaten to shoot Wolf Blitzer. And for as much as I hate him, Jerry Falwell has yet to behead someone for not watching 'The 700 Club'.

It's rather hypocritical to berate someone for 'generalizing' and then pull the 'STFU FAT IGNORANT DUMB WARMONGER AMERIKKANZ' card.

You still have no idea what I was trying to do, it's pretty funny. I thought I stated quite clearly in the beginning of that post that I was changing your post to show how dumb your post was, and I wasn't expressing my own views. Since you now acknowledge that my post was pretty dumb (which it was because it was essentially YOUR post with a few words changed), perhaps you can realize how stupid your own posts are for their own over generalization and over simplification of the facts.



One thing I should point out though is that it's hypocritical that while one act of terrorism (as bad as terrorism is and I by no means condone it) can get a lot of press and get people like you all riled up, while Americans shooting missles at Pakistani children so that they could fail yet again to get another al Queda #2 or bombing an Afghani wedding party, or wrongfully arresting innocent Iraqis or anything of the sort is pretty much downplayed by the press as 'well America needs to kill terrorists so no biggie', and if anyone DOES report critically on abuses by the US military they are labelled as 'against America' or 'liberal left-wing nuts'.

A life is a life, and if you choose to ignore the validity of other people's lives because you may think correctly or not 'well they are cooperating with terrorists anyway' then how is that any different from people who support the terrorist who think 'well you bomb us anyway so you're all the same'?

Use your head and think for a second that perhaps there are actually lots of Muslims out there who aren't terrorists who are just caught in the crossfire. Terrorism is bad yes, and free speech is a good thing. I agree that the political cartoons should be allowed even if they are in very bad taste to safeguard freedom of speech. I agree that the Muslim world needs to understand free speech and see that they do the equivalent in their own rhetoric such as Iran still denying the Holocaust ever happened with the full support of many Arab countries. But the fact remains that the citizens of those countries do NOT live in free societies and thus don't have the same freedom in many ways to 'know better' because of their own governments repressing them. Meanwhile you DO live a in free society will full access to information, and thus you should 'know better' than to blanketly condemn every Muslim for the actions of a minority. If you still choose to remain so ignorant over the real world, then you are no better than those who would blanketly condemn you.

[Centurion]

You still have no idea what I was trying to do, it's pretty funny. I thought I stated quite clearly in the beginning of that post that I was changing your post to show how dumb your post was, and I wasn't expressing my own views. Since you now acknowledge that my post was pretty dumb (which it was because it was essentially YOUR post with a few words changed), perhaps you can realize how stupid your own posts are for their own overgeneralization.

No, I acknowledge the jabs you took were pretty dumb.
I'm not sure if you had any intent to try and goad me or what, but whatever.
I did not come into this wanting to hate you for disagreeing with me or anything, but you make it rather difficult when the first time you address me it's personal jabs.

You took alot of the shit I said and manipulated it to unfair or really ridiculous comparisons.

It's not overgeneralization when Millions upon Millions of people believe something that is extremely morally reprehensible or Illegal, for whatever reason.

You should re-read where I talk about the prominence of Clerics in Islamic life and how their Fatwa's(religious edicts) carry lots of weight in the actions of others, because it is afterall, a religious edict. And with devout, often very zealous believers listening, it becomes dangerous.

Were a Pastor to try issuing such an edict, and many have, some pretty scary and radical guys such as a Pastor in Kansas or Minnesota(I'm not sure) who runs the www.godhatesfags.com site or whatever...tens of thousands of followers would not take up arms and start pulling the kind of shit we see in Gaza and the West Bank with these thugs trying to intimidate.

You can think I'm saying all Muslims are the same, are all fervently religious, evil fanatics, but that's not the case.
I'm simply stating that there ARE a large number of Jihadi's like that, but the problem lies in that so many others get manipulated and influenced too strongly by their religious 'Leaders'.

These 'Leaders' should be held to a higher standard seeing as their influence carries LOTS of power and can affect some pretty bad shit.
This goes for ALL religions.

[Centurion]

One thing I should point out though is that it's hypocritical that while one act of terrorism (as bad as terrorism is and I by no means condone it) can get a lot of press and get people like you all riled up, while Americans shooting missles at Pakistani children so that they could fail yet again to get another al Queda #2 or bombing an Afghani wedding party, or wrongfully arresting innocent Iraqis or anything of the sort is pretty much downplayed by the press as 'well America needs to kill terrorists so no biggie', and if anyone DOES report critically on abuses by the US military they are labelled as 'against America' or 'liberal left-wing nuts'.

A life is a life, and if you choose to ignore the validity of other people's lives because you may think correctly or not 'well they are cooperating with terrorists anyway' then how is that any different from people who support the terrorist who think 'well you bomb us anyway so you're all the same'?

Use your head and think for a second that perhaps there are actually lots of Muslims out there who aren't terrorists who are just caught in the crossfire. Terrorism is bad yes, and free speech is a good thing. I agree that the political cartoons should be allowed even if they are in very bad taste to safeguard freedom of speech. I agree that the Muslim world needs to understand free speech and see that they do the equivalent in their own rhetoric such as Iran still denying the Holocaust ever happened with the full support of many Arab countries. But the fact remains that the citizens of those countries do NOT live in free societies and thus don't have the same freedom in many ways to 'know better' because of their own governments repressing them.

Meh this will be a double post prolly but I'm lazy so just go with me....

If you think I'm happy when I learn of civilian casualties in an Airstrike then I really feel sorry for you because that does break my heart.
But, such is the nature of War and this is a War that for all intents and purposes was taken to this level by THEIR side.
War is fucked up and terrible shit happens in War, plenty of civvies died in WW2 but that doesn't make the fight any less noble/necessary.

I'm not saying we should have a Free pass to do whatever the fuck we please, but we don't go out of our way to harm civilians indiscriminately, to argue that would strip you of ANY credibility whatsoever.
If you think mission planning guys at the Pentagon and CENTCOM don't absolutely bust their asses and get chewed out by their superiors to do a better job of minimizing risk to innocents, then you are a lost cause.

It doesn't make it all better that there ARE Terrorists in civilian areas that get hit, but guess what? They are the ones hiding there, that is on THEM if they choose to operate like cowards.
Innocent Muslims are UNDOUBTEDLY caught in the crossfire, and it DOES suck.

But also, to be fair, if Al-Zawahiri and associates walk into your living room for tea, and you welcome them(as is Islamic tradition to welcome those who are lost or in need of shelter) then you are becoming actively involved and that exposes you and your children to risk.

You can't say that these guys should be immune from justice simply because they hide behind Women and Children, like scum.
While it is regrettable that there will be Civilian casualties as a result, this is the nature of Warfare.

[Richard Creager]

No, right-wingers have Pat Robertson for that. Remember how he thought we should just go ahead and assassinate Hugo Chavez? I'm not saying that Hugo Chavez is a good person (he obviously isn't), but for every grandstanding Islamic extremist, there's a corresponding Christian extremist.

Exactly and hopefully soon, non affiliated extremists(like myself), christian, jewish and islamic extremists all over the world all gather and kick and punch and gnaw at each other for hours straight until there are none or a handfull left. The hard part is deciding where to host this battle royale so that it can get enough combatants to attend and everyone who wants to be (or just want to hit people for no reason) represented can. Also, the more players the better the battle would be, though Pat Robertson sounds like he would be too fat to participate on any sort of competitive level and this same reason would most likely account for the gross absence of representation of the christian camp come game day.

[T3l Ca7]

or a marketplace of innocent people? [/B]

No one is really innocent.

Damn, I wish I could draw a few pictures and make thousands of people to stand in the mid of the streets for hours.

This is more of a reason to stop using fossil fuel and finding other sources. What would these Arab nations do if they did not have oil to sell? Take the oil away from them and they have no economy...well...they do have Michael jackson living there now...hmmm ....but see if they can live by eating and drinking oil.

There is a better idea. You know, the oil under the ground of Middle East are all inter-connected? You can just nuke one of the countries over and drill a few holes and just keep on pumping as fast and hard as you can ... pretty much what Bush government is doing there.

Seriously though, Bush did a terribly wrong thing 10 years ago. If they didn't stop Iraq from invading Kuwait, there would be more places to drill holes today (if you know what I mean >_<).

[Centurion]

though Pat Robertson sounds like he would be too fat to participate on any sort of competitive level

Hahahah, You're thinking of Falwell....so much for gluttony being a sin.