Muhammad cartoon row intensifies

[Epinephrine]

It's not overgeneralization when Millions upon Millions of people believe something that is extremely morally reprehensible or Illegal, for whatever reason.

You should re-read where I talk about the prominence of Clerics in Islamic life and how their Fatwa's(religious edicts) carry lots of weight in the actions of others, because it is afterall, a religious edict. And with devout, often very zealous believers listening, it becomes dangerous.

You can think I'm saying all Muslims are the same, are all fervently religious, evil fanatics, but that's not the case.
I'm simply stating that there ARE a large number of Jihadi's like that, but the problem lies in that so many others get manipulated and influenced too strongly by their religious 'Leaders'.

At least we're making progress here. You've went from 'overwhelming majority' to 'over 50%' to 'millions and millions'. I guess that's as much as I could hope for. As for the edicts carrying a lot of weight, they only have as much weight as people give them. Just as most Catholics don't really listen to what the pope say, most Muslims don't listen to these clerics either. And since Islam is quite decentralized (there is no equivalent of the pope, and there are in fact many, many religious leaders), it's unfair to say what one cleric says as something that all Muslims or even a large number would follow. Just because Iran issued a fatwah against Salman Rushdie's life, doesn't mean that most Muslims even give a crap.

Also I am not sure what you think these millions of people actually believe in. I am quite sure that only a VERY VERY small minority of these people go to bed at night dreaming about bombing children on buses and how great that is. The rest of the people accept these as part of the only way they can show their own struggle both with their own governments and repression and the supposed western incursion into their own societies. With as much conviction as you may think civilian casualties are acceptable under the 'war on terror', a lot of arabs may think that civilian casualties are acceptable under their own war to gain their freedom, land and dignity back.

Also note that the PLO under Arafat was a secular organization, even if they were terrorists. In that way, they were very similar to the same political terrorists as the IRA or ETA in Spain.

These 'Leaders' should be held to a higher standard seeing as their influence carries LOTS of power and can affect some pretty bad shit.
This goes for ALL religions.

Wouldn't that be great if all leaders were held to a higher standard? Unfortunately if we accept bad leaders in our own democracies, it's going to be very hard for the undemocratic and unfree societies of the Middle East to have this sort of accountabilty for their leaders and their actions.



As for the original post, apperently many Muslims in Canada are now boycotting Danish products, and the US State department has also issued a statement about how counterproductive the cartoons were in the way that they unnecessarily inflame the passions of the Muslim world. It is of course worth it to note that absolutely no Canadian Muslim or Arab organization has gone far enough as to issue any threats on the Danes more than just unstocking Danish products from their store shelves. Yes they all agree (and I agree) that these cartoons are insulting to their religion, and thus insulting to them, but they aren't going to go as far as to be extremists.

I think this is very important, because it shows that a lot of the response and fallout from these cartoons is based on an incomplete understanding of those who do not live in free societies about how our western world works. While these cartoons are certainly insulting and really had little point other than to get people mad, at least those Muslims who accept western society will only protest using non-violent means. It also shows how events like this also give the people of those areas legitimate reasons to protest, when they have no freedom to vent their frustrations otherwise under their repressive and ineffective governments.

[Volcs]

See, I can understand how pissed off they are, but have you guys seen the posters they are holding? Whoaoaaoaaaa.

[Volcs]

See what I said above.

The debate is not about the fact certain things will offend people, as I said, burning my flag offends me. Shit, a multitude of things offend me.

The difference is, I don't blow up a Newspaper office or behead a Journalist in response. Nor do I threaten to, as is Islamic custom, or so it would seem.

People are free to express themselves in this world(most of it, anyhow) and voice their opinions of others.
Tough shit, it's not radical, fundamentalist Sharia law and they can live with it or Fuckoff.

Tom Green burned the Canadian flag on MTV. The audience cheered. If I see Tom Green in Ottawa again I'm going to tell him to go back to the US where people appreciate his bullshit... then I'll probably make a joke about him only having one testicle. We shall see.

[Antega]

Good things these guys don't have nuclear weapons

Wait a minute...

[genocidal]

But the fact remains the vast and overwhelming majority of Muslims, as a result of often negative Faith, support alot of the beliefs and ideals propogated by these extremists.

I really didn't think you were this ignorant.

The rash and immoral/illegal/imbecillic actions taken by Islamic radicals, and supported by droves of faithful Muslims is a result of Faith being used by a few Retards to manipulate vast quantities of people.

Clearly you don't understand something, because the vast majority of the Muslims definitely do NOT approve of terrorism or anything like it.

EDIT: Well yeah I missed out on this argument but I think Epi and Conc already did a pretty good job of ending it.

[genocidal]

No one is really innocent.

Take notes, fools. Words of fucking wisdom.

[K2Grey]

It's somewhat pointless to say that no one is truly innocent, because this does not help in making any decisions or judgments on what to do.

While I'm at it, I would also like to support Epinephrine and Troll King on their patient tolerance of Centurion's ranting and efforts to cause him to realize the incorrectness of his arguments and statements.

To Benno: There are probably more than enough statements in the Koran suggesting a harsh stance and actions against infidels and so on. But then again, there are more than enough such statements in the Old Testament, as well (and given that God is always right, one would assume that he hasn't changed his mind). If you want to continually bash religions that support violence I guess at the end you'll end up converting to Buddhism or something.

[genocidal]

I only quoted it because it was stupid and generic - and I have Telcat to thank for it.

[Richard Creager]

Take notes, fools. Words of fucking wisdom.

One sage for thinking telcat knows what she is even talking about.
Another sage for trying to suggest it to others.

And one more rounding out a triple struck sage for hitting new reply instead of the vastly superior edit button.

[genocidal]

Another sage for not reading the post right above his own.

[T3l Ca7]

Do you think there would be a full scale war between the Christians and the Muslims in the next 10 years?

Where is that Tone? (looks around for a scapegoat)

[Barton]

That's not the point though. No one has the right to NOT be offended. All religions, organizations, nations, actions and view points needs to be criticized, discussed and debated at one point or another. If they don't like it then they can claim defamation or something else if the actions of the cartoonist were found illegal by an offical body/govn. (maybe outside of the middle east..) and take it to another level but restorting to violence, murder, and terrorism is never acceptable. This religion and many others rarely takes the legal/peaceful route, only when there's something big to gain and when a majority of the culture disallows it (I.E when there's less fundamentalist around). It's a sad world full of control freaks.

thats true

Violence is not the way to solve this problem.

[Riesen]

Someone mentioned that they have never seen a radical Christian or some other western religion act violently on their beliefs...

I, personally, find that hard to believe. Have you never seen news of an abortion clinic being bombed? How about the burnings of Jewish Synogogues or Black churches? Just because you don't see it on your Fair and Balanced Fox News doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Speaking of which, the reason you don't see those peaceful, anti-terrorism rallies on the news has nothing to do with how many people are there at the rally itself, it has to do with sensationalism. Seeing people having a peaceful rally wherein they share the same belief that an overwhelming and vast majority of Americans do isn't going to scare anyone. However, the opposite end of that spectrum will; seeing a bunch of guys screaming and shouting things with AK-47s a-wavin' is scary as shit, and that's what gets the viewers. The News Media in America could give a shit about fair and balanced news coverage or real news. And, when you think about it, the News Media are terrorist as well, they use fear to get what they want; they use fear to get ratings and money.

And finally, Cent, an overwhelming and vast majority of the people in this thread believe you are stupid, moronic and wrong in everything you say. Therefor, it is thus. Right? Right. You can stop now. No matter what you say, you'll be wrong, because the majoirity has spoken.

[D1st0rt]

Ya'll gon' make me act a FOOL up in here, up in here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4683894.stm

[Send]

What good was it for them to smash a church down?