Pub Timed Matches

[Troll King]

I think there are other more efficient ways to improve pubs before we even look at resizing the weasel. If the only complaint about its size is that they can get in the flag room easily, then I don't see that as being the biggest problem in our pubs. The people who seemed to have a problem with the weasels sneaking in like that are mostly the ones who have been too used to the ?go base style. Your argument is that it would make basing better for them, and whether that is true or not is immaterial. They aren't the ones that need to be reached out to. If we need to get basing healthy in pubs, we need to first get more people to base. If you ask the random pubber why they don't want to base, cloakers sneaking into the flag room will not be high on their list of reasons. The focus should be on getting people to want to base, not in making major changes like ship tweaking just to please those who already base. My feeling is that resizing the weasel would only benefit those who already base, but will not increase basing and may actually decrease basing.

[Sarien]

It's these secondary changes like changing the weasels, or placing ship limits. What I also take offence to is these people who, after years of foresaking pub and thinking themselves to be too good for public arenas, are trying to push ahead their own ideas of what pubs should be like over those who have been playing in pubs the whole time.

When I first started playing TK was already an old hand at trying to get help for pubs. He was asking for help and suggesting fixes before I knew what the hell he was talking about, or what impact it could possibly have.

After playing with him a few times, reading what he has to say, I can tell you that he generally knows what the hell he's talking about, and each of his posts in this thread I've made sure to stop and read them. He's one of the reasons why I didn't feel stupid because I didn't like some of the stuff about ?go base, and would rather pub base. And where lots of people would get mad, when surrounded by new players jacking up a defense. I've never seen TK look at it as anything but a whole new level of difficulty, and try to reason with the same players and show them what works and what doesn't, to get the game really going.

In short, he's one of the best pub players you've got. In this venue, you should at the very least pay real close attention to what he has to say.

[Kolar]

Yes I respect him too Sarien but I feel that he is wrong on this one. I think it's a lack of knowledge from not knowing both sides of it (league basing and public..) and just plain hate for basing sense a lot of basers even today still feel that publics are a waste of time.

There are many problems in the publics TK, this one solves two of them. Balancing weasels for basing and for the new timer. Anyone basing has a problem with them currently, thrust shooting with multifire makes it so no one can dodge their shots at all and the pub timer gets reset every 5 seconds. We need to reach out to players in the publics, to give them a sense of a goal and reward so I think this system is long over due. This system needs to be playable and fun for people to actually use it, the way it is now: NO ONE is going to sit there for an hour holding the flag, not one person.

[Guest]

whoa lol...i say we still allow weasels...i dont know how the topic has come to that but...yea...weasels are still part of TW...i say we keep the timed basing, and pure pub...however we need the ORIGINAL weasel back...normal size, stealth, and cloak...and thats it. i think if we go back to the original weasel even that can be used as a competitive ship in pure pub. the new small ones are so cheap. they are just plain annoying. what is the point of getting 1 kill, and then dying 2 seconds later..over and over again. bring back the original weasel please! and idk if they would have a point in pure pub...but i think you guys are familiar enough to decide whether they belong in pure pub or not.

remember: pure pub is only taking over 2 public arenas. right?

[Troll King]

Yes I respect him too Sarien but I feel that he is wrong on this one. I think it's a lack of knowledge from not knowing both sides of it (league basing and public..) and just plain hate for basing sense a lot of basers even today still feel that publics are a waste of time.

There are many problems in the publics TK, this one solves two of them. Balancing weasels for basing and for the new timer. Anyone basing has a problem with them currently, thrust shooting with multifire makes it so no one can dodge their shots at all and the pub timer gets reset every 5 seconds. We need to reach out to players in the publics, to give them a sense of a goal and reward so I think this system is long over due. This system needs to be playable and fun for people to actually use it, the way it is now: NO ONE is going to sit there for an hour holding the flag, not one person.

And as I said, those two problems you're solving are not the biggest problems that we need to address. The new timer is as yet located to one and only one arena, and since the only people who benefit from it are the 15 or less on the freq who own the flag at any one time. Even if you say that it benefits both the defending and attacking players, it's still only 1 arena receiving the dividends, and even then not everyone in that arena would care. As for balancing the weasels, they have never been as big a problem as you just made it out to be, and also not as big as t0ne had made it out to be a month ago.

We need to take a step back and look at overall issues, systemic issues, and build up from there, not look at what the elite want and let the rest eat cake. We shoukn't be focussed on weasels resetting the timer or ship limits or freq-switching for bonus points. Those are for people who already "get it". They aren't the ones we need to reach out to; any changes that work for their benefit amount to little more than fine-tuning. We need to finish renovating the house before we start putting up the drapes.

[Kolar]

All publics will benefit from resizing it, basing will benefit from it. Tone was wrong in that their greatest unbalanced ability of the cloaker is their multifire and their thrust shooting, not their ability to stay cloaked. So if its not a problem that games run on for over an hour, when 4 mins is needed? people will grow tired of this soon enough if the weasel is still small, then you'll have your arena back, with all the shitty public play you can get.


So where the hell do we start? if you're not going to give suggestions, a proposal or even advice to Qan or Arilou and just shoot down everything I say, then what the fuck else are you going to do here? I've found an overall problem in the publics, 2 even, and I've gave a simple and easy solution to fix both that many people find acceptable, it isn't even revolutionary or worth fighting over. Basers want it, public players want it, ANYONE playing the game wants it. Yes we can switch over to time race and that will lessen the problem here, but why not kill two birds with one stone? I've already said we need to focus on public players and bring them into basing for publics, stop restating shit.

So what the hell should we address TK?

[Krusnik]

I personally can't tell what's wrong with the pub's except for the ocasional dockbot screw ups or the safe glitch........ as for weasels they make things more challenging, and when things are challenging we exercise our skills. Whoever (seriously) complains about weasels either has no skills, no persistence/determination, or is just another whiner that wastes oxygen and has no use or purpose in life.....

[Sarien]

I think it's a lack of knowledge from not knowing both sides of it (league basing and public..) and just plain hate for basing [since] a lot of basers even today still feel that publics are a waste of time.

It is, but the lack of knowledge isn't from his point. It's from yours. That isn't an insult. A lot of people in ?go base and leagues can feel publics are a waste of time, they can keep on feeling that way for all I care until the end of time. It's not them and their attitudes you should even be beginning to try to cater to or appease. Fix the public game for the public, and people will come to it. Not for the leaguers. Period.

Balancing weasels for basing and for the new timer. Anyone basing has a problem with them currently, thrust shooting with multifire makes it so no one can dodge their shots at all and the pub timer gets reset every 5 seconds. We need to reach out to players in the publics, to give them a sense of a goal and reward so I think this system is long over due. This system needs to be playable and fun for people to actually use it, the way it is now: NO ONE is going to sit there for an hour holding the flag, not one person.

If no one is going to sit there and hold the flag, does that mean the arenas are empty? Look, Moot said it well, the pure pubs were a band aid and it worked. Even the people that initially railed against pure pub, (including pure hatred), complaining that the LTs were taken out, now play in the arena. Now some of them say it's the only place they'll play. It's time to do it in the settings, and fix the leviathan. These guys that have been playing publics for so long keep saying to you, "Look it's not the weasel, it's this <insert bigger problem>" and you just keep going on about thrust shots and multifire. There is no REASON on earth to be dicking with multifire and thrust shots from the weasel. It's just blind fishing instead of listening. First it was the cloak, that didn't work, now it's multifire and thrust shots, next it'll be that it's colored blue or something. Some people say don't listen to the guys on the forum, because they don't represent all the public players. We don't. What we DO represent are the public players that care enough about the game, to come here, and be part of the community, and -try- to make it better. We were even here saying this stuff long before it was even fashionable. Back when the only response you'd get for your trouble was "Who gives a shit? It's just pub." And TK doing so longer than most. Just try listening to us for a month or two, just please -try- it. If it works, great for everybody! If it doesn't, then never listen to us again. See how easy that is?

So where the hell do we start? if you're not going to give suggestions, a proposal or even advice to Qan or Arilou and just shoot down everything I say, then what the fuck else are you going to do here?

He did give suggestions, at least two already. The wall around the spawn area, and the decreased population limit in public arenas. All I've ever seen TK do is base when he's in a pub. And when he does, he's a shark. A team oriented and serving ship. His entire play style is focused around the public team. You might just want to, you know, ease up a bit.

[Kolar]

I don't see publics as a waste of time, I was however stating that this is a result of TK not knowing both sides. This is not about making it better for league players, this is making basing better in publics. I'm not going to say this again, the goal: Hold the Flag The problem: Pubbers have no sense of that goal or know how to play the game. The SOLUTION: Make a reward and structured system, which is opened ended so people can still do what they want. Period.

The weasel will not be changed because leaguers or basers want it done, it will be changed because it is not balanced for public basing, forget the timer.

I competetly agree, the levi and the settings should be the focus of development, not more bot restrictions. Moot only wanted to take credit for making it happen once I said it on here. I think the size is the main issue here, if that is fixed then we can go over other things later on the weasel. TK is not addressing or appending my suggestions, only shooting it down and that to me shows that he doesn't really care about the game. Public limits or map stuff is not important when the settings and systems inside the game are not working properly and that is directly effect the players and if he wants to continue to battle it out with this odd notion that basers shouldn't be asking or making changes on the public system, when the pubs are theirs, then that's fine, just more stupid crap to fight over when the goal and change is right and good for the zone.


Defending against something that has no balance and no comparable skill to use is probably the most stupidest thing I've ever read on this board.

Yes I am use to playing real basing without levis or weasels (not as much). Small changes to fix something that was not an intended entrance in the first place and to something that has continuisly and unfairly disrupted basing and now the new flag timer is something worth changing, drop the ego shit and start putting some ideas down to solve THIS. This is not a drastic change or something the Big Evil Baser cooked up, this is making ALL BASING better.

[Fluffz]

make the bot record scores. wins, flag time, teks, fcs and stuff like that

some general notes: neither LTs, javs or cloakers are ruining the game by their settings. its their ammount and the fact that they take away a qualified basing ship.
simple solution: dont have arenas that allow 0 levis and others without any restrictions. that is idiotic in my oppinion. their possible ammount should increase from arena to arena. same with javs and cloakers and actually any other ships. that way you would have a pub0 that is very similar to ?go base, a pub 1 that is a little more dangerous and so on. pub0 has 2 javs/freq, pub1 has 4javs/freq and so on. everyone could choose the thing he likes most. and if one of these arenas gets overcrouded you could simply clone its settings. also shipchanging tkers would hurt them. you could also implement the option to !switch <someone> to spider which would happen as soon as 5 people do it. (eg, if you limit terrs one day and they decide to be assholes and roof around)

[Sarien]

Kolar, first things first. You need to step back and cool off a little. Nobody here is trash talking you, least of all me. When I do that, it usually involves lots of epithets and marked allusions to your penis placement and functionality.

Second you can sit and say that the size of the weasel is this or that, and needs to be this or that, and I can say that I can see your point, and I can see TK's point. But I can also say you have several, long time dedicated pub players saying to you firmly that the weasel is not the most important thing that needs to be looked at. Did you just ignore what I said about this all? Calm down and just please read it again, and don't get insulted. Look at the actual content. Start from the most important aspects and work your way backwards. Because fixing the most important things may just have the effect of fixing these smaller "problems" as well!

[Kolar]

I'm not getting suggestions or corrections from him sarien only more bullshit. It's easy to say that i'm wrong but fucking put in the effort in offer up something if you're gonna take the time to post.

Second you can sit and say that the size of the weasel is this or that, and needs to be this or that, and I can say that I can see your point, and I can see TK's point.

All that I get from him is that the small weasels are not effecting the flag timer or basing. Wanna clear that up for him while he's afk?

But I can also say you have several, long time dedicated pub players saying to you firmly that the weasel is not the most important thing that needs to be looked at.

I've played public the entire time I've been on this game Sarien. I know there are other things that need to be taken care of but this is still a problem, more so for the pure publics. It's a problem that would not take any amount of resouces away from other developments, so you either agree with me or you don't. Not only am I geting opisition to this but I am getting bullshit about this being acceptable, that the weasels are fine fucking up basing because it's a challenge? Tell me, is it fun to play a game for an hour, 2 hours getting fucking pissed off over a weasel rushing into the FR; killing your terrier in two seconds without skill, getting the flag and reset with 5 seconds left. How is this fun? how in the hell can we expect people to play that?

I have no problem if people want to disagree with me, just bring a reasonable arugment and drop the bullshit about basers changing publics.

[Troll King]

I don't see publics as a waste of time, I was however stating that this is a result of TK not knowing both sides. This is not about making it better for league players, this is making basing better in publics. I'm not going to say this again, the goal: Hold the Flag The problem: Pubbers have no sense of that goal or know how to play the game. The SOLUTION: Make a reward and structured system, which is opened ended so people can still do what they want. Period.

The weasel will not be changed because leaguers or basers want it done, it will be changed because it is not balanced for public basing, forget the timer.

I competetly agree, the levi and the settings should be the focus of development, not more bot restrictions. Moot only wanted to take credit for making it happen once I said it on here. I think the size is the main issue here, if that is fixed then we can go over other things later on the weasel. TK is not addressing or appending my suggestions, only shooting it down and that to me shows that he doesn't really care about the game. Public limits or map stuff is not important when the settings and systems inside the game are not working properly and that is directly effect the players and if he wants to continue to battle it out with this odd notion that basers shouldn't be asking or making changes on the public system, when the pubs are theirs, then that's fine, just more stupid crap to fight over when the goal and change is right and good for the zone.


Defending against something that has no balance and no comparable skill to use is probably the most stupidest thing I've ever read on this board.

Yes I am use to playing real basing without levis or weasels (not as much). Small changes to fix something that was not an intended entrance in the first place and to something that has continuisly and unfairly disrupted basing and now the new flag timer is something worth changing, drop the ego shit or stop putting some ideas down to solve THIS. This is not a drastic change or something the Big Evil Baser cooked up, this is making ALL BASING better.

You don't think I care about the game? You don't think I care about pubs? After everything I've said and the suggestions that I've made, after spending years playing the style that I play, you are telling me that I don't care enough about pub or on how to improve it? I have said plenty on how to improve pubs, not just in this thread, and not just on this forum, but going back on the last TWO versions of this forum. I have been a strong proponent of pubs for going on seven years now. While popular sentiment has been that pubs are TW's slums and others have proclaimed themselves to be too good for pubs, I have stayed and fought and clawed and constantly, CONSTANTLY try to set a good example of what pubs can be and what pubs should be. I have seen settings come and go, I've seen maps come and go and I've seen players come and go, and you say that I do not have a good enough perception of what works and what doesn't work in pubs?

First of all, let me address the accusation that I'm shooting down everything, especially "The SOLUTION: Make a reward and structured system, which is opened ended so people can still do what they want." Did I ever in this thread say ANYTHING against this? Look too in the older thread titled "Great Idea for Pub" where they discussed the jackpot system, the only problems I had with it was that a) the times suggested were too long (which had been remedied with the current Timer system to just a few minutes instead of the initially proposed 30 minutes) and b) it's not enough to promote basing without a lot of extra pushing and advertising and encouragement. My point on that second point was that this timed pub would work only if it received all of that support, but I pointed out that ALL pubs would benefit from the same kind of support and that support will end up having more of a positive effect than the timed pub.

You accuse me of stupidity for defending something that has no balance or comparatives skill? I've been playing under those settings and I've seen how they affect basing. I know what weasels can do and how their size can work to their advantage, and I've played through it and found a way to counter this so called lack of balance to find a new balance. That's not stupidity, that's the ability to adapt and change my game with the times. And because of that, I'm the one criticized for being against change? I'm not against change at all, I've adapted fairly well to it. What others such as yourself are doing however is proposing a NEW change because you can't seem to adapt to, or want to adapt to, the previous changes.

Do you really think that I have written as much as I have about and/or against some of these proposed changes in this thread because I DO NOT CARE? I've done nothing but show how much I care about this game and pubs in particular. I've never stopped caring about pubs and it's foolish of you to even suggest that I have.

[Mootland Farmer]

"I could care less about who wanted it or who got it done Moot. The fact is pure publics were made as a quick fix to the problems of the levis, we've ignored the chance to update the zone for far too long. I like the diversity that publics have to offer but staff should only (that's ONLY) be concerned with making basing better in the public system, nothing more, nothing less. The game has spawned different leagues and systems, just like pubs made basing. I can understand this may be seen as something that will unbalance TWD or TWL or just different comunities but if you stop and think about it, Where in this zone is an open, competitive and fun basing enviroment?" By Kolar

Since Pure Pubs have been running, "fun" basing you'd like to call is there 24/7. Sarien is right about players like Pure Hatred, Ezor, Gerry trying to sabotage the Pure Pubs, but in the end realising that Ship #5 is the real problem.

"We're not making it more like TWLB but we are trying to make basing more appealing and fun. I'm all for the convergence of basing at different levels but if you ignore the fact that TWLB is a league and will continue to be updated to suit the needs and wants of a comunity to make things more competitive, then you're just being stupid. The core of basing is to get the flag and hold it, I can't see that changing ever so I don't get what the problem is there Moot. I think all changes should start from a souce, since ?go base went public it has been the place to test out new league settings, ideas anything.. I think we need drop that and start from publics then work down the line. This entire change, the way I see, it is the most unevasive attempt to make the zone better in 6 or 7 years of playing this zone that I can remember, I really can't understand why some people hate it." By Kolar

If the main Public community want Time Race, I'm pretty sure A) they'd either go to ?go base, or B) if there was enough support for it they would have pushed for the idea themselves.

"Fat weasel without miltifire (or without thrust shooting) would be a nice addition, or the NW. In the end we will need to change the levi, the NW seems like a good replacement but I can't see it ever happening. The Flag Timer is pretty fun for publics, for ?go base and leagues it would cause timing issues." By Kolar

I agree with the fat weasel should replace the current one. I also happen to agree the levithan needs to be changed. The nightwasp is a pretty cool ship. I'm not sure if we could incorporate some abilities from the Nightwasp and Levithan and recreate Ship #5 which would be suitable for basing. I think if good changes were made to the Levithan, we wouldn't need to change the map, we wouldn't need to put in place the Time Race. Some people like the Time race, no doubt about that, but I don't think it has made a difference to basing.

Kolar, the Pure Pubs were a good idea. And yes I want a little bit of credit, because I put some thought into that idea, and look how it turned out. Since then Public basing has increased, for the better. Now imagine if that was the similar case for all the Publics.

[genocidal]

Now imagine if that was the similar case for all the Publics.

NEVER! Levis are a part of the game. (And no, a ?go baselevi is not sufficient).