Trench Wars... has changed.

[Liquid Blue]

OK, we agree it shouldn't be the main pub. I full-heatedly agree. But what's wrong with leaving it open 24/7 just like a pub, but not starting people in it? That's the argument I want to hear. No one's come up with a convincing one yet.

I have, and have posted why at least twice- once Distension stops becoming the hot thing to do, the people that were obsessed with playing it won't want to play it any longer, and by that point alot of people who never wanted to play it will have left and found better things to do. I don't understand why you are complaining about people not trying the game and then repeatedly ignoring the same thing I (and Epi, and Wark) have been saying over and over. Just because it doesn't convince you, doesn't mean it's not a convincing reason.

and FTR, while I don't like that there's 40 ppl in spec, count up the # of people speccing elims, tourny's, dd's, events, and TWL and see if it's the same as distension. I'm guessing it is, just spread out over several other arenas. I'd like them to be able to play instead of spec, but it's not so damn unreasonable-- it's the norm in arenas like Elim and Tourny, even in the pubs some times.

Are you talking about the people speccing at the same time as the people are in Distension? Because that's even less people in pubs, and empty pubs will alienate and dissuade new players, which is exactly what I was talking about before.

I really don't think it's going to loose interest as quickly as you propose. Sure in a year it might suffer, but that's why it's important to let it thrive now, so as many people can get introduced to it as they'd like. Leave it open for people to try, without having to fight the 80 ppl that try to play during the limited hours of operation. Like I've said before, it's been running over a year already... and it's only showing signs of growing the more it's offered.

It's already been around for a year, it's not going to take that long to get old. It's important to work on tweaks with pub, get new ideas rolling about it and have some new changes instead of focusing all the energy on pleasing the Distension crowd. A few people can work on it sure, but everyone is agreeing that pub being stale is a problem and yet nowhere near enough people are working as hard to fix it. It's going to be around alot longer than Distension will, so it's better to fix pub, or at least attempt to, and then work on Distension while pub is bringing in and keeping new players, who might want to move on to Distension.

[LaG KiLLeR]

Blissful ignorance, I didn't get a chance to read anyone's comments, but I did briefly skim some from magi, wark and epi...

And the fact is, time is a constant process of change. The more time passes, the more opportunities for change, the more likely change there will be. TW will have its highs (actually, it already climaxed....maybe 5 years ago lol, before infantry stole SS players) and its lows (the process of decline is clearly apparent).

For the longest time, there's been talks about finding plausible solutions to employ to save the TW population....and some action has followed through, but it's never been effective. Reality is, TW and SS for that matter, is a free 2-bit game....but with the vast changes in technology, SS will never effectively attract new players....the only reason it still exists is because of those dedicated players who have attachments to the game, networks of SS friends, etc. In fact, I bet that the vast majority of the actual stable players spend more time talking with one another on TW/SS than actually playing the game....and although some of the new SS players may decide to stick around because they find it fun, the rest will leave because of the lack of _____ (enter whatever you'd like here because it's probably all true).


Anyway, what it all comes down to is, reminisce the golden memories of TW/SS because it'll never return. So, enjoy the available time you have with TW/SS while it is still around, because it'll only decline in user population until that last player decides to stop playing...which may not be for the next few years, who knows, but it is coming soon.

[kthx]

For the longest time, there's been talks about finding plausible solutions to employ to save the TW population....and some action has followed through, but it's never been effective. Reality is, TW and SS for that matter, is a free 2-bit game....but with the vast changes in technology, SS will never effectively attract new players....the only reason it still exists is because of those dedicated players who have attachments to the game, networks of SS friends, etc. In fact, I bet that the vast majority of the actual stable players spend more time talking with one another on TW/SS than actually playing the game....and although some of the new SS players may decide to stick around because they find it fun, the rest will leave because of the lack of _____ (enter whatever you'd like here because it's probably all true).

And this is exactly the crowd that doesn't want distension, the people who are actually going to keep playing this game. Shouldn't staff want to cater to these valuable players instead of people who are going to inevitably get bored with Distension and leave?

[MaGi kOz]

And this is exactly the crowd that doesn't want distension, the people who are actually going to keep playing this game. Shouldn't staff want to cater to these valuable players instead of people who are going to inevitably get bored with Distension and leave?

not it's not. i've been playing this stupid game for almost a fucking decade and i don't mind distension being around. and saying that staff should cater(?) to these valuable players is stupid.

Quit being a nazi.

[DankNuggets]

I have, and have posted why at least twice- once Distension stops becoming the hot thing to do, the people that were obsessed with playing it won't want to play it any longer, and by that point alot of people who never wanted to play it will have left and found better things to do. I don't understand why you are complaining about people not trying the game and then repeatedly ignoring the same thing I (and Epi, and Wark) have been saying over and over. Just because it doesn't convince you, doesn't mean it's not a convincing reason.

So your point is that people won't play it any longer. I disagree, and having way more experience than you in this field (distension, not TW) I'm not going to accept your opinion on how long it will be popular. Sorry, but this is one of those yes/no/yes/no arguments, and I'm in a better position to say how long it might last because i'm one of the people you're talking about when you say people will get bored with it. You're not. It's not the same as or simlar to any previous event/arena in TW, so playing the "I've been playing for 10 yrs" card isn't going to help. Moving on from that, you say the other people will have left. Is that you? You are one of the people who "never wanted to play it" or in reality didn't enjoy it. So you're going to quit TW? And your reason for quitting TW was Distension? I don't buy this either. I'm disagreeing with you, not ignoring you. You got the convincing me part right.

Are you talking about the people speccing at the same time as the people are in Distension? Because that's even less people in pubs, and empty pubs will alienate and dissuade new players, which is exactly what I was talking about before.

No I'm not, i hope that wasn't a rhetorical question. If I was, shouldn't you be even more pissed off at those people? They're doing just as much to contribute to the zone as someone speccing in distension. Are we now moving on from "distension's killing dd's" to "distension's killing pubs?" If so, then close off other events that aren't as popular (javs, elim, base, etc). See if the people who like those arenas enjoy your principle of closing arenas to repopulate the pubs.

It's already been around for a year, it's not going to take that long to get old. It's important to work on tweaks with pub, get new ideas rolling about it and have some new changes instead of focusing all the energy on pleasing the Distension crowd. A few people can work on it sure, but everyone is agreeing that pub being stale is a problem and yet nowhere near enough people are working as hard to fix it. It's going to be around alot longer than Distension will, so it's better to fix pub, or at least attempt to, and then work on Distension while pub is bringing in and keeping new players, who might want to move on to Distension.

What do you mean it's already been a year it's not going to take that long... Others are saying it won't last a year... but after a year, it has way more people, maybe even double the amount, playing consistantly. Once again, I don't know what precedent you're following here, but there's not even one to follow as this is a unique first for TW.

No matter how much you tweak the pubs, it's not going to be as engrossing as distension. the two aren't interchangable: one's non-stop action, the other's laid back. There isn't more than 2-3 people in staff working on distension that I know of: qan (creator), alinea, and HMS. Plenty of people could be working on pubs (Maverick just gave us score website), and others are working on elim (milosh) or TWL (rii/mirr). So people are pretty spread out according to what we want changed, as far as I can tell.

Not to mention none of staff's time is used to "work on distension" really. They are hosting it, but they're not spending a lot time doing the type of things you'd be doing to redesign the pubs. It's not creative work per se, more of housekeeping with bugs and scheduling. If they are "wasting time" by enjoying playing it, I can't blame them.

[404 Not Found]

So your point is that people won't play it any longer. I disagree, and having way more experience than you in this field (distension, not TW) I'm not going to except your opinion on how long it will be popular. Sorry, but this is one of those yes/no/yes/no arguments, and I'm in a better position to say how long it might last because i'm one of the people you're talking about when you say people will get bored with it. You're not. It's not the same as or simlar to any previous event/arena in TW, so playing the "I've been playing for 10 yrs" card isn't going to help. Moving on from that, you say the other people will have left. Is that you? You are one of the people who "never wanted to play it" or in reality didn't enjoy it. So you're going to quit TW? And your reason for quitting TW was Distension? I don't buy this either. I'm disagreeing with you, not ignoring you. You got the convincing me part right.

No I'm not, i hope that wasn't a rhetorical question. If I was, shouldn't you be even more pissed off at those people? They're doing just as much to contribute to the zone as someone speccing in distension. Are we now moving on from "distension's killing dd's" to "distension's killing pubs?" If so, then close off other events that aren't as popular (javs, elim, base, etc). See if the people who like those arenas enjoy your principle of closing arenas to repopulate the pubs.

What do you mean it's already been a year it's not going to take that long... Others are saying it won't last a year... but after a year, it has way more people, maybe even double the amount, playing consistantly. Once again, I don't know what precedent you're following here, but there's not even one to follow as this is a unique first for TW.

No matter how much you tweak the pubs, it's not going to be as engrossing as distension. the two aren't interchangable: one's non-stop action, the other's laid back. There isn't more than 2-3 people in staff working on distension that I know of: qan (creator), alinea, and HMS. Plenty of people could be working on pubs (Maverick just gave us score website), and others are working on elim (milosh) or TWL (rii/mirr). So people are pretty spread out according to what we want changed, as far as I can tell.

Not to mention none of staff's time is used to "work on distension" really. They are hosting it, but they're not spending a lot time doing the type of things you'd be doing to redesign the pubs. It's not creative work per se, more of housekeeping with bugs and scheduling. If they are "wasting time" by enjoying playing it, I can't blame them.

No offense DK, but you sound like the players that wanted Speedball/Strikeball to be a league as well as an arena with a bot at all times (me included). I know they are entirely two different games, but the old SB players had been very dedicated to the game for many years as you are; we had been very vocal on the forums as you have been. Not that the games are similar comparing SB & Distension, but the enthusiasm seems equal.

We had full arenas as well as overloaded arenas on hosted events. We had been promised a bot for the league; we had the support in writing/chat by the mod’s to host and push SB to become a league event. There was quite a bit of support for it and yet it never happened. We had started a league on 3 or 4 occasions with the promises of it being hosted and it started off ok for the 1st week and then the hosts would never show, the bot didn’t work and so on and so on....

I do hope that Distension will succeed. There are quite a few players that are very enthusiastic about it, as I can see you are too from your posts, more so than I have seen in general speaking on TW as a whole in the past years.

I just wanted to reply, as your comments are so similar to what was wanted by players and promised by the higher ups of TW, only to fail in the end. I hope they do not let you down! It really sucks to get involved with proven interest and try and make something work, only to have it fail because of a lack of help by those in higher positions of authority.

I may not be a player in Distension, but there seems to be quite a few that are.....Keep on it!

[Liquid Blue]

I'm not going to accept your opinion on how long it will be popular. Sorry, but this is one of those yes/no/yes/no arguments, and I'm in a better position to say how long it might last because i'm one of the people you're talking about when you say people will get bored with it. You're not. It's not the same as or simlar to any previous event/arena in TW, so playing the "I've been playing for 10 yrs" card isn't going to help.

It looks like this is one of those "we agree to disagree" points, because I've seen this happen over and over, and the same result happens regardless of game, number of people interested and zone, whatever. You can choose to not accept my opinion just like people choose to accept that Distension will save TW. It's that simple.

No I'm not, i hope that wasn't a rhetorical question. If I was, shouldn't you be even more pissed off at those people?

I didn't know what you exactly meant by the people speccing. No, I'm not personally mad at those people if that was the case, but anyone who constantly voices about how TW is dying and pub needs to be fixed should be. What I'm seeing (and have seen it for a number of years) is that people love to complain about TW dying and pub being stale, but very very few are willing to put a maximum amount of effort into trying to change things. That's why I have alot of respect for Stabwound, because even though he was backing Distension, this isn't the first time that's he's gone out of his way to try and improve the zone.

I'm all for people trying to improve and help the zone, which is why I said waay back, that I have no problem with Distension existing, and which is why I don't care about anti-Distension chats or any of that meaningless, trivial mess. If you care about the zone, and are trying to help improve the situation, bravo. But if a person is speccing in any event over and over, and spend time whining about the zone dying (not talking about you, just to be clear) then they are one of the main reasons TW continues to die.

Am I pissed at those people? No, but if you are investing time in helping the zone, then you should be. I'm not advocating closing other events, but getting more people actively helping with the pub situation (testing, ideas, TW promotion ideas, etc) instead of just speccing in events and talking about farts or anime.

What do you mean it's already been a year it's not going to take that long... Others are saying it won't last a year... but after a year, it has way more people, maybe even double the amount, playing consistantly. Once again, I don't know what precedent you're following here, but there's not even one to follow as this is a unique first for TW.

Don't bring what other people are saying into what I'm trying to tell you, you're only going to get confused. If it's already lasted a year, it's not going to take another full year to burn out. Especially if it goes to 24/7. Anything done in excessive amounts goes sour quickly, you can look at any game, any pass time or hobby and see the results.

No matter how much you tweak the pubs, it's not going to be as engrossing as distension.

That line of thinking is only going to hold you, and other people back. Assuming you can't make pub simple and engaging at the same time is going to keep pub as stale as it has been. Look at past experiences in other zones, see what they did to entertain people and use the user base you have right now to test things out until you find something that works for TW. The reason alot of those zones died out is not because they weren't fun, but because they either didn't have the money to pay for the servers, or because they didn't have the player base. Sometimes both. TW still has enough of both, to try and get something new going.

[quoteNot to mention none of staff's time is used to "work on distension" really. They are hosting it, but they're not spending a lot time doing the type of things you'd be doing to redesign the pubs. It's not creative work per se, more of housekeeping with bugs and scheduling. If they are "wasting time" by enjoying playing it, I can't blame them.[/quote]

Again I understand that staff has alot to do, but this is where the players need to shine. I see alot of enthusiasm for Distension (which is good to see), but it would be even better if we could get those people excited about changing pub. I know it's going to take alot of coordination between staff (to set up testing arenas and the like) and the playerbase (to test stuff out, come up with new ideas, try to promote and advertise all over and in creative ways)-- but pub is a huge part of this game, I think everyone agrees about that. Pub needs to be worked on, period. You guys have to get together and make beautiful shit happen.

[Zeebu]

So your point is that people won't play it any longer. I disagree, and having way more experience than you in this field (distension, not TW) I'm not going to accept your opinion on how long it will be popular. Sorry, but this is one of those yes/no/yes/no arguments, and I'm in a better position to say how long it might last because i'm one of the people you're talking about when you say people will get bored with it. You're not. It's not the same as or simlar to any previous event/arena in TW, so playing the "I've been playing for 10 yrs" card isn't going to help. Moving on from that, you say the other people will have left. Is that you? You are one of the people who "never wanted to play it" or in reality didn't enjoy it. So you're going to quit TW? And your reason for quitting TW was Distension? I don't buy this either. I'm disagreeing with you, not ignoring you. You got the convincing me part right.

for the record, i have played distension and i find it a good time. i have some opinions on it though as well...


you are very correct in saying that distension is not like any other event in tw. in fact, there is another zone that runs somewhat similar to this (an RPG spaceship game). from this reasoning, a game like distension has the ability to support a zone in itself. so... we are taking something that has the ability to populate an entire zone... and making it an event inside trenchwars. does this not strike most people as odd?

and yes, i am allowed to play the 10 year card. ive been around 10 years and watched the zone change for better or worse. in my opinion, either give distension its own arena to run free in OR turn it into a good event. not to knock on you qan, its fun and i give you as much credit as possible. as of right now though, it just isnt made to be an event; not in the traditional sense for our beloved zone.

an event is something that has a beginning and an end. i dont know of many (any?) events that carry over stats from the previous time it was hosted.

ive watched events come and go (this is where my 10 years comes in). the worst thing you can do to an event is host it 24/7. hosting dist 24/7 will be popular. it will go over great and it will probably sustain a good deal of the zone's population at all time for a while. its so different from how the rest of tw right now.

lasdkjflkdsa im rambling and not making sense. here is what im afraid will happen. im afraid that dist will go 24/7 and be wildly popular putting a serious hit on twd/twl activity and hype. this is a bad thing. if there is one constant in TW it is TWL. in my 10 years i have never seen an event that rivals the overall popularity of TWL. why introduce something completely new to the zone that TAKES AWAY from TWL?


i dont know... this isnt a complete post because im at work and i looked away for a while. now im leaving and i dont feel like finishing this. i think there are a couple comments in it though.

[Zeebu]

So your point is that people won't play it any longer. I disagree, and having way more experience than you in this field (distension, not TW) I'm not going to accept your opinion on how long it will be popular. Sorry, but this is one of those yes/no/yes/no arguments, and I'm in a better position to say how long it might last because i'm one of the people you're talking about when you say people will get bored with it. You're not. It's not the same as or simlar to any previous event/arena in TW, so playing the "I've been playing for 10 yrs" card isn't going to help. Moving on from that, you say the other people will have left. Is that you? You are one of the people who "never wanted to play it" or in reality didn't enjoy it. So you're going to quit TW? And your reason for quitting TW was Distension? I don't buy this either. I'm disagreeing with you, not ignoring you. You got the convincing me part right.

for the record, i have played distension and i find it a good time. i have some opinions on it though as well...


you are very correct in saying that distension is not like any other event in tw. in fact, there is another zone that runs somewhat similar to this (an RPG spaceship game). from this reasoning, a game like distension has the ability to support a zone in itself. so... we are taking something that has the ability to populate an entire zone... and making it an event inside trenchwars. does this not strike most people as odd?

and yes, i am allowed to play the 10 year card. ive been around 10 years and watched the zone change for better or worse. in my opinion, either give distension its own arena to run free in OR turn it into a good event. not to knock on you qan, its fun and i give you as much credit as possible. as of right now though, it just isnt made to be an event; not in the traditional sense for our beloved zone.

an event is something that has a beginning and an end. i dont know of many (any?) events that carry over stats from the previous time it was hosted.

ive watched events come and go (this is where my 10 years comes in). the worst thing you can do to an event is host it 24/7. hosting dist 24/7 will be popular. it will go over great and it will probably sustain a good deal of the zone's population at all time for a while. its so different from how the rest of tw right now.

lasdkjflkdsa im rambling and not making sense. here is what im afraid will happen. im afraid that dist will go 24/7 and be wildly popular putting a serious hit on twd/twl activity and hype. this is a bad thing. if there is one constant in TW it is TWL. in my 10 years i have never seen an event that rivals the overall popularity of TWL. why introduce something completely new to the zone that TAKES AWAY from TWL?


i dont know... this isnt a complete post because im at work and i looked away for a while. now im leaving and i dont feel like finishing this. i think there are a couple comments in it though.

[Heroin Bob]

distension will finish what automation of things like tourny started

[kthx]

Distension being hosted before TWL is honestly ridiculous, everyone please do your best in game, and on forums to make sure this travesty doesn't occur.

[Kolar]

Distension being hosted before TWL is honestly ridiculous, everyone please do your best in game, and on forums to make sure this travesty doesn't occur.

------------
Saturday/Sunday

10am-12pm*, 10pm-12am

*May not be hosted on Sunday due to TWL matches/concerns.
All times are in EST.

by H.M.S. Stargazer
-----------------------------

[kthx]

He said the only reason that distension might not be hosted sunday morning is if during the Week distension causes crashes that might cause lag for TWL games, but it doesn't address the fact that Sunday Morning should honestly be saved for people who want to play TWD, or get ready for their matches, no matter how many distension nutjobs scream about it.

[Kolar]

I agree it shouldn't be on during those times on Sunday. I think you've blow the whole issue of Dist out of proportion. I don't think we can with any kind of accuracy predict how people will react to the game in relation to the rest of TW, adding to this is the fact that we have very little data guiding the discussion and the decisions the Distension Ops make. I think that can be said for a lot of things.

Lets stick to the current times, except for 10-12 on Sunday and see if the bugs in it can be worked out. I think the current times are a good compromise and all staffers need to keep within those limits.

[kthx]

Yeah don't misunderstand me, I really do like the new times, and I am even willing to let them host two hours extra on another times slot or something for having to give away these two hours. It just isn't worth the risk of it running before TWL. And it isn't fair to people who will have to login to dead wb/javduel/elim arenas while trying to warmup for twl.