John McCain vs Barack Obama Mega-Politic-Thread of super fun awesomeness.

[kthx]

People from other countries have a backwards ass view of how things work in America. People assume that because not everyone is covered by a government health care plan that people go without medical treatment and care. People think that our citizens go bankrupt or declare bankruptcy over medical bills from going to Emergency Rooms without insurance.

Here is the truth of the matter.

Anyone can go to any emergency room and get treatment for anything that happens, whether it be a broken arm or being sick.

If you can't pay the bill the doctors will still treat you, the doctors will still give you medicine at the hospital such as anti-biotics or anything else you need to get healthy again.

Emergency Rooms and Hospitals will try to get you to pay them but not paying medical bills will NOT go against your credit rating, so even if you have 500,000 dollars due to a hospital you will still not be refused treatment and even if you never pay them back the worst you will have to deal with is a phone call a day from a third party billing firm or a letter once a month asking you to pay.

After a while they stop asking you to pay and the hospital absorbs the treatment costs into the costs of running the hospital, other peoples treatment costs might be increased but that is paid for the insurance companies of people who are covered, so in the end insurance companies of the insured end up paying for treatment of uninsured people anyways.

There is no need for a government ran healthcare system when we already have medicare and medicaid which pays for a large majority of uninsured people.

Most of the people in America out of the 50 million or so uninsured are people who don't have insurance because they choose not to get it through their jobs, people who make enough money to not worry about having health insurance, illegal immigrants who still use our emergency rooms like I listed above, or people who are too lazy to fill out the needed forms to get free health services that are already offered by the government.


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Basically unless you live in America you shouldn't really and can't really comment on how our system works and how it is a failed system because you don't have any idea of how it works and how well it works. In America anyone can get treatment the DAY THEY GO TO THE HOSPITAL, nobody has to wait weeks or months to get treatment for things like cancer, broken bones, or any other illness that is life threatening.

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Also you should look up the amount of Canadians who actually come to the United States hospitals to get same day service after not being able to see a doctor in Canada for several weeks. Our system produces the best hospitals, the best doctors, and the best health care in the world, and the fact that our nation is up in arms against trying to change that proves that we don't want and we don't need it. I will say it again, Obama and the Senates job isn't to CONVINCE America that we need health care it is to do what we are telling them to do and make sure that the legislation isn't passed. The fact that Obama is still planning on trying to shove this through and get some of it passed alone is despicable and goes against what America is supposed to stand for. So overall no, he isn't doing a good job, and America is starting to see this and agree with the sentiment that I have expressed all along.

[Ilya]

my dick hurt so bad this morning

[Barton]

what's the pos thing of having an insurance?
you will get helped even if u don't have insurances so why do u want one?

[kthx]

Because I choose not to be a drain on society like plenty of other people are, I work, I have insurance, I pay taxes, I spend money, etc etc etc.

But also some private practices where some of the best doctors work especially the specialist fields you need insurance to go to them because they require payment up front. However that is a benefit that I deserve for not being a leech, not just anyone should get the best things in life for doing nothing.

[Barton]

allright i see, thx for clearing that up!

[kthx]

Just curious do you feel alright with paying taxes so people who are healthy but choose not to work because they are lazy can have the same quality of life as you even though you worked to have it?

[Barton]

i would not...

[kthx]

Basically Obama wants America to be like other countries where they want everyone to be equal in terms of having money, and the luxuries that come from having money but that isn't how things work. I have far far from a rich person, but I make enough money for my age, and I am able to enjoy a few luxuries that I deserve from working hard to earn what I do have. Not everyone is equal, I will probably never be exceedingly rich but I am alright with that, some people create things, come up with ideas, and run successful businesses and they deserve what they have from doing these things. They are rich because they came up with a product or a service that people want or need, I don't feel like I deserve any of their money, I don't feel that they should be taxed so much more than me and that I should get some of their money for doing nothing. That is what socialism is, it punishes the people who make money and punishes people who are successful in life, because some people don't have the luxuries that they have obtained through hard work, intelligence, or ingenuity. I am all for a CEO of a company that makes millions of dollars a year making several hundred thousand dollars, or a CEO of a company that makes billions of dollars a year making several hundred million dollars. They deserve it for running a business successfully. If a company is failing they shouldn't get bailed out because obviously they have a flawed business plan, they should let these companies die and let better companies arise from their ashes. Sometimes things have to get worse before they get better, and the only thing Americas current government is doing is prolonging the inevitable by trying to prevent a depression from happening again. Millions of people take anti-depressants because they think that life should always be happy and nothing should depress them, this is a fake reality because there are ups and downs in life and that is what makes a person better, learning how to cope with problems without resorting to drugs.

Really it is pathetic, the world needs a great depression, we need to just let it happen, people need to get off drugs which give them a false sense of happiness, everything is so fake in the world right now, money with no backing becomes unlimited and we fake fixing the markets by throwing trillions of fake dollars into it to make it look like its better. Sooner or later it is all going to collapse and be hundreds of times worse than it would have been if we had just let it fail in the first place. It will happen, and when it does all of the people who use fake remedies to replace true happiness in their life are going to be fucked. People who work hard have the best chance of surviving the upcoming economic disaster because things are going to go back to how they used to be. People who work for what they have are going to continue to work for what they have, making an honest living based on doing a service that is actually needed. People who don't work and expect to be fed, clothed, housed, and taken care of by large governments are going to end up dying in mass due to their poor work ethic and ideology.

[Nycle]

Making health care accessible to everyone doesn't necessarily mean you have to "socialize" the entire system. I think that some people are misguided in their notion that such a system would require the government to run and pay for the entire thing. There are plenty of countries where the health care system depends on the private sector for a substantial part, where the government just acts as a regulator to keep standards up and to prevent companies from denying certain individuals basic insurance.

You are wrong that a system that's accessible to everyone will lead to longer waiting lists and reduced quality in care.

I took these figures from here:



Why does the US top every chart in a negative way?

As for waiting lists:

* Only one-quarter (26%) of U.S. and Canadian patients reported same-day access to doctors when they were sick—and one-fourth or more reported long waits. In contrast, about half or more of Dutch (60%), New Zealand (54%), and U.K. (48%) patients were able to get a same-day appointment.
* U.S. patients were the most likely to find it very difficult to get after-hours care without going to an emergency room: 40 percent said it was very difficult, compared with only 15 percent in the Netherlands and Germany, the lowest rates of any country on this measure.
* In the past two years, 59 percent of U.S. patients visited an emergency room; only Canada had higher rates (64%). In both countries, one in five said they went to the ER for a condition that could have been cared for by a regular doctor if one had been available.
* In contrast to long waits for primary care, U.S. patients reported short waits for specialists. Three-quarters of patients in the U.S., as well as more than two-thirds in the Netherlands and Germany, were able to get an appointment with a specialist within a month. Waits for specialists were longest in Canada, New Zealand, and the U.K.

You accuse some people of being misguided about the American system, but apparently we're not the only ones. I'm pretty sure the top 5% hospitals in the US are better than the top 5% hospitals in any other given country, but only for those who can afford it.

And you're probably right about a few things on "socialized" health care. It's true that strongly state rationed care can generally lead to longer waiting lists. We had that problem in the 90's. There is also uncertainty about the sustainability of certain health care models in terms of cost, in light of the upcoming population aging in Europe. To cope with these problems, some countries have implemented reforms (including mine) that made the system more market oriented in an attempt to keep costs under control and to smooth out inefficiencies. This has all happened without losing the universal aspect of the system. If I'm not mistaken, this is exactly what Obama wants. I'm definitely seeing somewhat of a convergence between the American and certain European systems, so it's not all that black and white to me.

[kthx]

I would say it is less than the top 5% that is better, I would say it is more like the top 10-15% is better than almost any other country. Especially Houston's, but do you really think that EVERYONE regardless of how hard they work for it deserves the top 10-15% of doctors and hospitals in the US? I personally don't, I think everyone deserves basic treatment for diseases, but if you work hard and don't expect handouts from people or a government, you deserve better. It is as simple as that, 90% of businesses classified larger than a "small business" which is 10-15 people offer discounted health insurance for their employees, and if you work for a large company you get even better deals, and some companies even give their employees FREE health insurance, including many in the oil and gas industries. Considering how badly most liberals look at these companies they actually offer their employees the best benefits.

Nobody should get the best of anything whether it be a house, clothes, food, or health care if they don't earn it somehow. It basically leads people to think that they don't have to do anything and will still get to be successful in life, and leads the people who busted their asses in college and in their jobs to feel shitty because why work that hard if people who don't do anything can still do everything they can do on their dime. It leads to a breakdown in society and a breakdown from generation to generation. America during WW1, WW2, and the Depression knew the value of hard work and knew they weren't going to be getting free money from anyone so they worked for it, and it helped build America into the best nation in the world, jobs were created in infrastructure and other fields that were vital to improving the country. It truly was the best generation, and now look at us, it is fucking pathetic, we have no company loyalty, or work ethic for the most part because our government told us that even if we decided to be fucking useless they would take care of us. It isn't good for anybody to let these welfare recipients who are perfectly healthy continue to be a drain on society.

[Nycle]

Well that's just a totally different mindset. I don't believe someone should be entitled to a better or faster treatment if they get sick. Sicknesses like cancer don't discriminate on income, so I don't think the system should too. But those are just my personal beliefs.

[kthx]

But it isn't like that Nycle, having more money or insurance means that when you go to a dentist you can go to a dentist that has a flat screen TV above the chair to watch while the dentist is working on your teeth, and might have newer technologies that make things more comfortable for you while you are there. Not having insurance means that you might not have the TV and you might not be able to get anesthesia to knock you out during the procedure but you can still get it taken care of.

That is what I mean, the people to WORK for it and have a job or make the payments to have insurance should get to enjoy the small luxuries that make their lives easier. People who don't work should still have these procedures offered to them but they shouldn't get the same quality of SERVICE that is offered if you can pay more for them. Even if they still get general anesthesia and can still get the procedure done.

Do you not agree with me that if you work harder or did something smarter than someone else and have more money that you should have a better quality of life? Not everyone is equal, and someone on welfare shouldn't have a 60" flatscreen TV when they are receiving money for the government to buy food for their children, however I should (and do) have one because I busted my ass for it.

[Money]

I agree that Bush wasn't a good president, but Obama is just much worse, he is spending trillions more per year than Bush did.

lol and u think mccain would do a better job? you're delirious

[kthx]

No, they all suck. McCain was such a pussy and basically a fake conservative, at best he was a slightly left from the middle psuedo republican. Obama is however much worse as he is even more left than most of the really left congress.

[Money]

oh well, we dealt with horrible bush for 8 years im sure obama for 4 years wont kill you